Terminator: Genisys - Part 7

[DarthSkywalker]

It can function without the loop. They break the loop and Judgment Day is averted. It makes perfect sense. The films screams NO FATE at you. It spells it out but you choose to ignore it.

John can't be born without the loop. It really is that simple. John is born and very much alive at the end of T2. Using your logic, how does that happen? Why does John not send the terminator back to 1984 and save his father and mother? Why? Why doesn't John himself go back?

Never once is there any suggestion that they can create a new timeline. Everything in fact points to John knowing the timeline, and sending his soldiers back to when they need to be, in a predetermined manner. He does specifically what he has to do to make sure he does not alter the timeline. It has to play out in the same manner. Everything John does is completely illogical without that. Otherwise, the leader of the human race is a complete idiot. He is also a very bad writer.

 

[elgaz]

Saw this last night. It was a bit better than I expected but still not at T1 or T2 level. Arnold's smile gag got tired by the second time, and the plot holes were jarring - think they took one too many liberties with the time travel concept. In saying that, the action was generally good and Arnie was on top form.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

You edited your post.

Just to respond, I ignored most of your post because I've been trying to explain it to you for the last six hours but we haven't gotten anywhere. Would another counter point have changed your mind or gotten us anywhere other than going in the same circle?

Just explain to me future John's actions. If you can do that, I will admit I am wrong and agree with you. I have done it before. But you are ignoring the films internal logic, which is why this is going on for so long. I am fine with it, because I am trying to stay up to watch an F1 race.

Also, on Cameron's intentions. He was pitching T3 for a long time in the 90s. Budget problems and bankruptcy of the studios delayed it, as did the loss of 50% of the rights. So if we are talking intentions, he planned on following up T2 himself. Do you think what was going to happen was a peaceful world, where John never fought a war?

 

[jmc]

There's a reason then for the ambiguity of the T2 ending, Cameron made it in such as way that works as either an end to the story, or open enough for a continuation should he feel the need to revisit it. So there's no right or wrong answer. If you feel Judgement Day is always going to happen, that's fine, if you're like me and feel it was averted that's equally valid. The only reason people are harping on about it is some of us just choose to ignore everything that's come after it.

 

[Slushy]

I think they could very well make Terminator films just LEAVE THE PRIOR FILMS ALONE! Just go in a fresh, new direction.

I was hoping they were going to do that with a Terminator sequel starring Christian Bale since we were in the future now, but noooo we had to get this reboot bullsh** instead because a lot of people whined Arnold wasn't in Salvation. (CGI cameo doesn't count)

 

[Scarlet Spider]

Just explain to me future John's actions. If you can do that, I will admit I am wrong and agree with you. I have done it before. But you are ignoring the films internal logic, which is why this is going on for so long. I am fine with it, because I am trying to stay up to watch an F1 race.

You don't have to admit your wrong. Your entitled to your opinion, nor would I try to change it. Your not the first person I've had this discussion with and you probably won't be the last.

I'm just telling you that's how I've always perceived T2 and what I think Cameron's intentions were based on his script and the future coda. It's something I feel strongly about.

You won't change my mind.

Also, on Cameron's intentions. He was pitching T3 for a long time in the 90s. Budget problems and bankruptcy of the studios delayed it, as did the loss of 50% of the rights. So if we are talking intentions, he planned on following up T2 himself. Do you think what was going to happen was a peaceful world, where John never fought a war?

This has been discussed in this thread. No one knows what he would have done. By all accounts, the reason he moved on is because he felt the story was done. When Cameron and Wisher wrote T2, they wrote it as a finale to the saga. He did consider a T3 for many years but he decided against it. Probably because he felt the story was done.

 

[Scarlet Spider]

There's a reason then for the ambiguity of the T2 ending, Cameron made it in such as way that works as either an end to the story, or open enough for a continuation should he feel the need to revisit it. So there's no right or wrong answer. If you feel Judgement Day is always going to happen, that's fine, if you're like me and feel it was averted that's equally valid. The only reason people are harping on about it is some of us just choose to ignore everything that's come after it.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

There's a reason then for the ambiguity of the T2 ending, Cameron made it in such as way that works as either an end to the story, or open enough for a continuation should he feel the need to revisit it. So there's no right or wrong answer. If you feel Judgement Day is always going to happen, that's fine, if you're like me and feel it was averted that's equally valid. The only reason people are harping on about it is some of us just choose to ignore everything that's come after it.

Well you can feel that T2 ended in such a way that the world was overun with puppies, dolphins and candy, and everyone stopped working the next day. That doesn't really make it reasonable considering the narrative. t:

 

[jmc]

I think the shear fact the alternate ending was filmed says a lot, I agree with the decision for a more ambiguous ending however because it leaves an element of doubt hanging which I believe fits better. I don't think Cameron really was beholden to the idea of John Conner fulfilling some kind future destiny.

Well you can feel that T2 ended in such a way that the world was overun with puppies, dolphins and candy, and everyone stopped working the next day. That doesn't really make it reasonable considering the narrative. t:

The narrative is left ambiguous, I'm only choosing to ignore everything after T2 because it suits my tastes.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

You don't have to admit your wrong. Your entitled to your opinion, nor would I try to change it. Your not the first person I've had this discussion with and you probably won't be the last.

I'm just telling you that's how I've always perceived T2 and what I think Cameron's intentions were based on his script and the future coda. It's something I feel strongly about.

You won't change my mind.

You could have saved us a lot of time if you just told me you were going to go with the religious argument here.

This has been discussed in this thread. No one knows what he would have done. By all accounts, the reason he moved on is because he felt the story was done. When Cameron and Wisher wrote T2, they wrote it as a finale to the saga. He did consider a T3 for many years but he decided against it. Probably because he felt the story was done.

You do realize why he decided against it right? It was rights and financial decision.

 

[Supernova]

T2 I thought ended in a way that pretty let the audience know judgement day was adverted hence why even the terminator threw himself in the hot liquid pit to ensure no trace of sky net lived on. T3 screwed it all up by saying sky net is alive and well and conveniently run by the man who's daughter becomes your future wife who you haven't seen for years but bam in one day all this goes down and they fall in love a bit. God T3 just angers me on so many levels, at least salvation try to take it in a different direction since the studios clearly were stopping.

 

[Scarlet Spider]

You could have saved us a lot of time if you just told me you were going to go with the religious argument here.

What's the religious argument?

You do realize why he decided against it right? It was rights and financial decision.

By all accounts he was done with it. If he wanted T3 to happen, it would have happened. T2 was definitely written as a finale, though. I can give you a few quotes to back that up, if you'd like.

 

[jmc]

If Cameron really wanted to do T3 he would have been able to do it, especially after Titanic.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I think the shear fact the alternate ending was filmed says a lot, I agree with the decision for a more ambiguous ending however because it leaves an element of doubt hanging which I believe fits better. I don't think Cameron really was beholden to the idea of John Conner fulfilling some kind future destiny.



The narrative is left ambiguous, I'm only choosing to ignore everything after T2 because it suits my tastes.

The narrative is beholden to John being born. The narrative is not ambiguous, because for everything to happen John needs to exist. And John can't exist without Kyle going back in time. And Kyle can't go back in time without the machines.

Do people really think a timeline existed with no terminators? That Sarah raised John like a "normal little boy", and then he suddenly became a great military mind and leader? Of course that didn't happen. He was only prepared because he knew what was coming.

 

[Scarlet Spider]

James Cameron: Terminator 2 brings the story full circle and ends it (Starlog #170)

William Wisher (the uncredited The Terminator co-writer and the co-writer of Terminator 2: Judgment Day): We've finished the story and as far as I'm concerned it should stay finished. Everything we had to say about the Terminator has been said. One of the things Jim and I talked a lot about was whether there should be another followup. And we made our decision in the way we wrote Terminator 2. There are no backdoors in this film. We wrote this movie so that the fat lady sings. (Fangoria 1991)

James Cameron: I'm not involved in T3. When I was in post on Titanic, I was approached on that. I said, "I'm just not that ... Ahhh, I mean, I told the story." I mean, the reason here to make the film is to cash in on the success of the franchise. I think films should be made from an organic place of 'I have a specific story to tell now I'm gonna figure out who's ready to pay for that.' It was 18 times harder to get the money to make Titanic than it ever would have been to make another Terminator film because that was a proven commodity, but I was much more interested in Titanic and I think that's the way films should be made.

James Cameron: At a certain point, I think I was finishing Titanic at the time and I just felt as a filmmaker maybe I’ve gone beyond it. I really wasn’t that interested. I felt like I’d told the story I wanted to tell. (Collider 2014)

 

[DarthSkywalker]

What's the religious argument?

The I believe argument. The ignore what is actually there argument in favor of what one believes.

By all accounts he was done with it. If he wanted T3 to happen, it would have happened. T2 was definitely written as a finale, though. I can give you a few quotes to back that up, if you'd like.

Well T3 did happen. He just didn't have control over it anymore, which was the problem. Quotes on the topic are a bit meaningless. Heck, just look at Avatar. The amount of sequels keep changing. And don't get me started on GL.

Though even if T2 works as finale, and it does for me, that doesn't change the narrative.

 

[Supernova]

If Cameron really wanted to do T3 he would have been able to do it, especially after Titanic.

pretty much my thoughts. Cameron has 2 films that are top 2 grossing of all time, he could snap his fingers and any studio would give hime a 5 picture terminator sequel. Cameron like a lot of us probably believed the story was done after T2 and the 2 weaker sequels proved there wasn't any story left to tell. sometimes these studios need to walk away on a high note instead of tarnishing beloved franchises and rebooting old ideas instead of creating new franchises.

 

[Scarlet Spider]

The I believe argument. The ignore what is actually there argument in favor of what one believes.

No, I definitely think I'm right and your wrong but I know I'm not going to get anywhere by arguing about, nor do I have any desire to change your mind.

It is what it is.

 

[jmc]

The narrative is beholden to John being born. The narrative is not ambiguous, because for everything to happen John needs to exist. And John can't exist without Kyle going back in time. And Kyle can't go back in time without the machines.

Do people really think a timeline existed with no terminators? That Sarah raised John like a "normal little boy", and then he suddenly became a great military mind and leader? Of course that didn't happen. He was only prepared because he knew what was coming.

The ending is ambiguous. T2 does enough to go down two paths, I'm choosing one that differs from yours.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

James Cameron: Terminator 2 brings the story full circle and ends it (Starlog #170)

William Wisher (the uncredited The Terminator co-writer and the co-writer of Terminator 2: Judgment Day): We've finished the story and as far as I'm concerned it should stay finished. Everything we had to say about the Terminator has been said. One of the things Jim and I talked a lot about was whether there should be another followup. And we made our decision in the way we wrote Terminator 2. There are no backdoors in this film. We wrote this movie so that the fat lady sings. (Fangoria 1991)

James Cameron: I'm not involved in T3. When I was in post on Titanic, I was approached on that. I said, "I'm just not that ... Ahhh, I mean, I told the story." I mean, the reason here to make the film is to cash in on the success of the franchise. I think films should be made from an organic place of 'I have a specific story to tell now I'm gonna figure out who's ready to pay for that.' It was 18 times harder to get the money to make Titanic than it ever would have been to make another Terminator film because that was a proven commodity, but I was much more interested in Titanic and I think that's the way films should be made.

James Cameron: At a certain point, I think I was finishing Titanic at the time and I just felt as a filmmaker maybe I’ve gone beyond it. I really wasn’t that interested. I felt like I’d told the story I wanted to tell. (Collider 2014)

First, that says nothing about the end of T2. Second, he admits he gave up because of the rights:

http://www.theterminatorfans.com/james-cameron-talks-terminator-3/

I pay attention to [the upcoming Terminator film] but I’m not terribly concerned about it one-way or the other. I’ve let it go. There was a point in time where I debated going after the rights. Carolco Pictures was failing and in bankruptcy and the rights were in play. I talked briefly to 20th Century Fox about it. At a certain point, I think I was finishing Titanic at the time and I just felt as a filmmaker maybe I’ve gone beyond it. I really wasn’t that interested. I felt like I’d told the story I wanted to tell. I suppose I could have pursued it more aggressively and gone to the mat for it but I felt like I was laboring in someone else’s house to an extent because I had sold the rights very early on. Basically I went from being a truck driver to being a filmmaker and part of my dues was that I sold the rights to The Terminator in order to keep myself attached as a director. And the outcome was fine. The rest of my career really hinged on that. But I no longer had control of it. I thought to myself why don’t I just create my own new thing that I’ll have control over the IP.

So I let it go and in the act of letting it go, I now have to live with the consequences of that — which is I can’t get too emotionally involved.

This is exactly why he made Avatar. So he wouldn't have to deal with this crap.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

The ending is ambiguous. T2 does enough to go down two paths, I'm choosing one that differs from yours.

You are focusing on the "ambiguous" ending, while ignoring the entire rest of the first two films. Which you can do, but that doesn't make the narrative accurate.

 

[titansupes]

T3's on right now. Haven't seen it since '04-ish.

My god. It's so much worse than I remembered it... and I remembered it being really bad.

 

[jmc]

You are focusing on the "ambiguous" ending, while ignoring the entire rest of the first two films. Which you can do, but that doesn't make the narrative accurate.

If he really wanted to make T3 he would have gone after those rights, and he would have had all the clout in the world post-Titanic. Cameron was done. Combine that with the alternate ending it would seem very much that even Cameron ignored his own narrative that you are going on about.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

T3's on right now. Haven't seen it since '04-ish.

My god. It's so much worse than I remembered it... and I remembered it being really bad.

I saw it on television a while back. I didn't remember Arnie looking as old as he does.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

If he really wanted to make T3 he would have gone after those rights, and he would have had all the clout in the world post-Titanic. Cameron was done. Combine that with the alternate ending it would seem very much that even Cameron ignored his own narrative that you are going on about.

Do you know how he lost the rights?

He cut the ending. It isn't in the film. We can argue why he did it, but even when he re-cut the film, he left it out. The films themselves function as a loop. Otherwise nothing can happen.