Terminator: Salvation - The NEW new thread

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I never said it wasn't a plot hole. I just said it could be an alternate timeline. And yes, there are ways to identify Kyle... see post above this. That's why I said they could pull anything out of their asses. And the whole franchise is a big loop... and in certain ways... a big plot hole.

No, there arent ways to indentify Kyle, I have spelled this out to you on numerous occasions, they wouldnt have any picture records of him, and even if they did, they couldnt possible know it was Kyle Reese. Kyle was born after the war, so there would be absolutely NO records of his existence, let alone pictures of him.

I wont disagree that the first 2 movies didnt have plot holes, but they made a whole lot more sense than TS did.

Yeah... movies do poorly because they're bad... Transformers must be a masterpiece then...

No, but they do poorly for a reason, this movie really had no reason to do poorly, but it did.

 

[Alonsovich]

No, there arent ways to indentify Kyle, I have spelled this out to you on numerous occasions, they wouldnt have any picture records of him, and even if they did, they couldnt possible know it was Kyle Reese. Kyle was born after the war, so there would be absolutely NO records of his existence, let alone pictures of him.

And I spelled it once. Chip in his head, sent back, loop, they knew all along. Very easy, very simple. And it's no less a loop than the whole goddamn franchise. Yes, there are ways.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

And I spelled it once. Chip in his head, sent back, loop, they knew all along. Very easy, very simple. And it's no less a loop than the whole goddamn franchise. Yes, there are ways.

Again, explain to me, how could a chip transfer information to superior technology decades into the future? How would you transfer information accross time? Not only that, but the chip wouldnt do anything either as it wouldnt see the events playing out. Skynet only saw what Marcus was seeing because Marcus was part machine, Kyle wouldnt be! Sorry, as I said before, that wouldnt make sense, and would be more of a step backwards for the franchise.

 

[Alonsovich]

Again, explain to me, how could a chip transfer information to superior technology decades into the future? How would you transfer information accross time? Not only that, but the chip wouldnt do anything either as it wouldnt see the events playing out. Skynet only saw what Marcus was seeing because Marcus was part machine, Kyle wouldnt be! Sorry, as I said before, that wouldnt make sense, and would be more of a step backwards for the franchise.

You mean... like the whole premise of the franchise? That's why I said before not to take into account the whole story. Cameron made another of his storytelling messes with the whole premise and now you guys complain about individual details? They could pull ANYTHING out of their asses and make it work, because it's as IMPOSSIBLE as the whole loop thing is. The whole thing is already a paradox... so there's nothing wrong with having plot holes. That's why I said to stop being so detailistic... because the whole thing was a mess from the start anyway. Just sit back and enjoy the goddamn film.

 

[Solidus]

You mean... like the whole premise of the franchise? That's why I said before not to take into account the whole story. Cameron made another of his storytelling messes with the whole premise and now you guys complain about individual details? They could pull ANYTHING out of their asses and make it work, because it's as IMPOSSIBLE as the whole loop thing is. The whole thing is already a paradox... so there's nothing wrong with having plot holes. That's why I said to stop being so detailistic... because the whole thing was a mess from the start anyway. Just sit back and enjoy the goddamn film.

I never saw it as a paradox. Because in reality, if someone really made a time machine, that means they always had made the time machine. And that if they traveled back through time they always had traveled back through time. And no matter what they did, always did happen that way. Therefore nothing really changed, and FATE always happened the way it did. One destiny no matter what is what Terminator was saying originally before the last 2.

I think some see it as a paradox cuz they think of it in terms of Back to the Future. Which made no sense. In reality if a time machine did exist, it really may not change anything is how I've always took it. Because you may not be able to change time, or fate. What ever you want to call it. And that was Cameron's point in the series.


And no need to get so upset that some see it this way. If you see the first two as paradoxes fine. But many don't. That is why T1 and T2 are still to this day considered masterpieces of storytelling.

And I will say again, this is matter of opinion. And on many Terminator sites and fan pages of Arnold many saw it the way Cameron originally did.

Just to say my final thought is I guess it depends if you see it as a paradox or not. I see in reality if we did create time travel you could not create alternate time lines or universes. That if you created a time machine that means you always did create a time machine, and that using it and what ever you changed always was changed because you had already changed it.

So I guess it comes down to if you think time travel would change anything or not. And to me that is what Cameron was saying, that it can't which I liked. And is how I've always took Time travel.

Though I love Star Trek I always hated the way they did time travel, and alternate universe. It just seemed like a cheap way of doing it. But that's me.

I know Terminator talk can get very tiring. But the thing is, yea they could have explained the alterations in T3 and T4 like you said and pulled anything out of their "butts" but this is the thing....they did not. They just made more action. And did not talk about any of the alterations in detail. So if it was not on screen then it made no sense.

 

[BestGirl]

PART IV

Terminator Salvation


Theme: Was there one? To me the theme seemed to be more about redemption of a character that really has no importance in the series other then giving John a heart. Kinda like the Wizard of Oz eh? Okay bad joke. To me there was real no talk of theme. The old themes of the past three seemed moot, and never talked about. It says John is unsure of this future, and that it is a different time line, but as we explored earlier....that makes no sense. Unless you just force yourself to say okay. But to me it does spat on T1 and T2.


In the film the whole plot is about Skynet trying to kill Kyle Reese and John Connor at the same time. Yet this is just stupid. First if Skynet actually knows that Kyle is John's father....why go through this stupid huge trap? JUST KILL KYLE YOU DOPE! Apparently you were smarter back in T1 and T2 cuz you were trying retroactive abortion. Yet here you are some kind of idiot CPU that wants to play games with everyone. Because if Skynet would have just killed Kyle...what happens? No more John!!! yay that was easy. But no Skynet decided that would be too easy. I guess he likes a challenge?

I'm not sure, but if Kyle were killed in the present, that would prevent John's birth, but maybe not in this particular timeline. I think the paradox started when Sarah and John changed the future.

In T1 Kyle said that he grew up after the war, possibly born after too, if you think about it, the original time line had 97 as the JD date. In T1 he is still pretty young so its pretty obvious that he was born after the war. So why would there be any records of him? Even in TS it seems that he is 15 years old. So JD in this movie takes place in 2003.....yet that would still mean he was born on or after JD. So yet again....why would there be pictures or knowledge of him after the war? There would not be. Just like dark b said....why does he have full pictures of Kyle? Hell even Sarah did not. They could have explained this in some fashion but they did not even try that.


As well if Skynet has all this information now....you would think that he knows that he created himself. So Skynet may not want to kill John anymore if he now has all this new knowledge. Which again would contradict the series as a whole.


So what I'm saying is that after T3 it seemed that people just trying to make alternate time lines just ended up missing the point of Terminator to begin with. Is that you have a fate, and you can't change it. T3 contradicts itself and says you can change the future....but not really. If you think about that....it makes no sense. And Cameron realized this cuz he's smart lol. T2 even though it asked the question can you change the future....the answer is no. So if you can't, then why alter anything? Why alter dates and locations? It just makes for plot holes and more possibility of actually changing the entire future.


Even a little thing can change the future. So why risk this? Yet they claim just by making the movies themselves that you can't change the future, yet they try to change everything else. And that would change everything anyways, yet again making the entire series pointless.


But T1 and T2 held the ground and did not do this. They made sense. And a T3 that would have just continued the story and unfolded the future unchanged would have been as exciting, and cool, learning how everything went down.


Hopefully a producer reads this lol.

But Sarah and John did change the future in T2, right? They destroyed Dyson's project, which should have prevented the creation of Skynet IIRC. This would've been much less complicated if it had been revealed that the future can't be changed and everything Sarah and John did was for naught.

 

[Solidus]

I'm not sure, but if Kyle were killed in the present, that would prevent John's birth, but maybe not in this particular timeline. I think the paradox started when Sarah and John changed the future.



But Sarah and John did change the future in T2, right? They destroyed Dyson's project, which should have prevented the creation of Skynet IIRC. This would've been much less complicated if it had been revealed that the future can't be changed and everything Sarah and John did was for naught.

Yes it would. Regardless of anything my whole point was Kyle is John's father. If your father is killed, before you are born, remember in TS he's 15, he's with Sarah. Kyle would cease to exist. Its a cyclical thing. No matter what time line. And in my report if you want to call it that, I've never seen Terminator as multiple time lines. To me that was not the point Cameron was originally going for, but cheap writers added that for easy access. But regardless, no dad, no life. No matter what if Kyle dies, John dies. Even in TS it seems to point at that. John realizes this in TS and that is why he's all afraid.

The second thing....no. Not necessarily. It never said they changed it, T2's ending watch it again....the unknown future rolls towards us. She said now she has a little hope, but that does not mean it changed. (Yes I know T3 and TS have said it changed yet it did not which I found odd I'm just talking in the context of T1 and T2, to me that was my main problem with T3 and TS, they changed the future....but not really. Just delayed it...it just sounds pointless and null to even say it was altered if in the end they really did not change much just make a bunch more confusion and plot holes.)

If you destroy Skynet Rachael....there is no John Connor. So yea they could have done that but it would have made the whole thing for not. You got it backwards. Do you really think a big project like this would be in one area? T3 had some right ideas, how after Dyson died the Air Force took over. Which Kyle said in T1 Skynet was designed by SAC NORAD and it sounded like from the T-800 in T2 that Skynet was part of a lot of military stuff first. T3 did do this right.

It could have always gone that way, that Dyson makes the major breakthrough but after his death the military continues on bam in 1997 JD happens.

And the themes in the first two T-films are what I said before, you can't change the future, T1 was clearly about this. T2 added more and said maybe you can change it. But the ending especially if you read my stuff again, leans more towards the idea that no you can't. Even having sequels really nothing changed, destroying Dyson's work does nothing. They should have made it simply that just like in T1 the T-800 being sent back through time and Kyle destroying it made Skynet. And destroying Dyson's work put it in the hands of the military, in the Ultimate Cut of T2 Dyson thought Skynet was going to be used more so for flying planes. It would have made perfect sense in T3 to make it where now with no Dyson, the military turns Skynet into their own purposes causing the "inevitable" JD that we all know.

Trust me it would have made it so much more simple yet powerful to just continue on that nothing has been changed. See these things are really not "for not" if they would have done it this way, yes Sarah and John trying to stop Skynet being built in T2 was really just pushing the future forward, but it is still an event none the less as it was in T1 and the chip. To me instead of having new dates, new timelines altered realities, it makes it more simple that because of the symbiotic relationship of John and Skynet that they help eachother along unknowingly, it worked for T1 and T2, it could have continued as such in T3.

This has been a long post cuz this stuff can sound confusing I wish I could verbally explain myself it would be easier.

But having no alteration, would have made things simple. But not pointless, it would drive the theme more that you can't change your fate.

EDIT: Whew this kind of stuff wears me out lol. But has there been any updates on the franchise rights? And if anyone is buying them?

 

[Figs]

I never saw it as a paradox. Because in reality, if someone really made a time machine, that means they always had made the time machine. And that if they traveled back through time they always had traveled back through time. And no matter what they did, always did happen that way. Therefore nothing really changed, and FATE always happened the way it did. One destiny no matter what is what Terminator was saying originally before the last 2.

That if you created a time machine that means you always did create a time machine, and that using it and what ever you changed always was changed because you had already changed it.

So I guess it comes down to if you think time travel would change anything or not. And to me that is what Cameron was saying, that it can't which I liked. And is how I've always took Time travel.

Though I love Star Trek I always hated the way they did time travel, and alternate universe. It just seemed like a cheap way of doing it. But that's me.

I know Terminator talk can get very tiring. But the thing is, yea they could have explained the alterations in T3 and T4 like you said and pulled anything out of their "butts" but this is the thing....they did not. They just made more action. And did not talk about any of the alterations in detail. So if it was not on screen then it made no sense.

Not really trying to argue with you Solidus but what I put in bold requires quite a leap to believe in. I reread it a few times but still wasn't sure if I got it right.

Since the Terminator series doesn't follow the traditional time travel style like in Back to the Future. Where you can literally go back in time in your specific timeline and alter things for when you return to the present time. How exactly does it work? Only way would be involving alternate realities.

So in one reality John Connor already existed(whether it was from Reese being his dad or not) and sends Kyle Reese back to help his mom. Instead of him going to the past of that same reality timeline(like in Back to the Future) he becomes part of an alternate reality, where he kind of starts the chain going with John Connor.

If you feel like taking the time, let me know if I'm way off on that. It always kind of confused me. Same with 12 Monkeys, which also used a Terminator style of time travel. Only way I ever managed to understand it is the whole alternate timelines, sort of like the mess DC Comics got into.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

You mean... like the whole premise of the franchise? That's why I said before not to take into account the whole story. Cameron made another of his storytelling messes with the whole premise and now you guys complain about individual details? They could pull ANYTHING out of their asses and make it work, because it's as IMPOSSIBLE as the whole loop thing is. The whole thing is already a paradox... so there's nothing wrong with having plot holes. That's why I said to stop being so detailistic... because the whole thing was a mess from the start anyway. Just sit back and enjoy the goddamn film.

T1 and T2 make perfect sense, its when T3 and TS come along that things get confusing for me. As I said, with what we are presented with in the movies, there is no way Skynet could know of Kyle Reese's existence, and there is no way they could identify him.

Your chip idea simply wouldnt work, as, and I stated this earlier, it couldnt transfer information accross time, not to mention Kyle would have a huge scar on the back of his head from when it was inserted, so no, they couldnt just pull anything from their asses, as there is no way Skynet could about him, let alone identify him.

I never saw it as a paradox. Because in reality, if someone really made a time machine, that means they always had made the time machine. And that if they traveled back through time they always had traveled back through time. And no matter what they did, always did happen that way. Therefore nothing really changed, and FATE always happened the way it did. One destiny no matter what is what Terminator was saying originally before the last 2.

I think some see it as a paradox cuz they think of it in terms of Back to the Future. Which made no sense. In reality if a time machine did exist, it really may not change anything is how I've always took it. Because you may not be able to change time, or fate. What ever you want to call it. And that was Cameron's point in the series.


And no need to get so upset that some see it this way. If you see the first two as paradoxes fine. But many don't. That is why T1 and T2 are still to this day considered masterpieces of storytelling.

And I will say again, this is matter of opinion. And on many Terminator sites and fan pages of Arnold many saw it the way Cameron originally did.

Just to say my final thought is I guess it depends if you see it as a paradox or not. I see in reality if we did create time travel you could not create alternate time lines or universes. That if you created a time machine that means you always did create a time machine, and that using it and what ever you changed always was changed because you had already changed it.

So I guess it comes down to if you think time travel would change anything or not. And to me that is what Cameron was saying, that it can't which I liked. And is how I've always took Time travel.

Though I love Star Trek I always hated the way they did time travel, and alternate universe. It just seemed like a cheap way of doing it. But that's me.

I know Terminator talk can get very tiring. But the thing is, yea they could have explained the alterations in T3 and T4 like you said and pulled anything out of their "butts" but this is the thing....they did not. They just made more action. And did not talk about any of the alterations in detail. So if it was not on screen then it made no sense.

Exactly, this has been my whole point all along, the first 2 movies make sense, Kyle was always meant to be John's father, thats why John gave him the photo of Sarah so he could fall in love with her, both of the first 2 movies make sense, but T3, and even more so TS, throw things in that just dont make sense or match what has gone previously.

 

[Solidus]

Not really trying to argue with you Solidus but what I put in bold requires quite a leap to believe in. I reread it a few times but still wasn't sure if I got it right.

Since the Terminator series doesn't follow the traditional time travel style like in Back to the Future. Where you can literally go back in time in your specific timeline and alter things for when you return to the present time. How exactly does it work? Only way would be involving alternate realities.

So in one reality John Connor already existed(whether it was from Reese being his dad or not) and sends Kyle Reese back to help his mom. Instead of him going to the past of that same reality timeline(like in Back to the Future) he becomes part of an alternate reality, where he kind of starts the chain going with John Connor.

If you feel like taking the time, let me know if I'm way off on that. It always kind of confused me. Same with 12 Monkeys, which also used a Terminator style of time travel. Only way I ever managed to understand it is the whole alternate timelines, sort of like the mess DC Comics got into.

See this is a theroy that many had prior to T3 and T4, and I will say this now, its not a fact, but a know a lot do see the first two explaining this. T1 more then anything clearly was stating this.

First I will say an example of this, it's a crappy one but bare with me.

Let's say my friend comes up to me, and says I tripped on a broom and broke my arm. I feel bad for him so I use my new time machine to try and alter the past so he does not break his arm.

So I go back in time and I'm trying to sneak around so he does not see me, and when I'm trying to make sure he does not break his arm I accidentally *fate* bump the broom, it falls on the ground and just like before my friend trips on the broom breaking his arm. I was always the cause of this, my wanting to change the past was always fate, and so I really can't change it. Because me creating the time machine has always happened. There is no other fate or way things go about. Using a time machine is just part of fate, and no matter what I do, it was suppose to happen that way regardless. Just like Skynet and John creating themselves. Unknowingly to them, but they did, and it was always fate. This part of the story always made it clear to me, that you can't change your fate. No matter what.

Trying to change your fate, is actually part of your fate, you want to believe you can change something, but in reality your just letting it actually really happen, because it always happens that way.

And that is the theory that many T fans, not all, but many did prior to T3 and T4. You can't change your fate, its not a paradox what happens, its just fate. There is one fate, and using a time machine will just push it along, and fate will unravel the same because the time machine is part of the fate. It always has been.

There is an old Twilight Zone episode that had something like this and I can't think of what it was.

But some suggest, as did T1 for sure, you can't change anything, the twist in T1 was that the time traveling did not alter anything, it just made everything go the way it always was suppose to go.

An old Eastern quote said something like, "The more a man tries to avoid his destiny, by doing so it finds him" Something like that but more well written lol. But what it is saying that if you try to avoid your destiny or change it, you really are just letting it come to you and unfold how it always will.

Yet again this is just how I've always seen T1 and T2. I'm fine if some see different, the only thing that irks me is when people lower T1 and T2 and say they are problematic, and not that good so just go with it so they can justified loving T3 and T4. T1 and T2 in their self contained world made sense. But T3 and T4 messed things up in the ways I mentioned above. The changed time....but not really. Altering it slightly just seemed lazy and caused more problems connecting back.

But yet again, this is my view of it.

 

[Asteroid-Man]

For the whole "plot hole" thing in TS and how the timeline has been screwed up you must be nick in the head. Look at it one step at a time.

Future: There's a war that starts in 1997 and in 2029 when the machines start losing, they send a Terminator to the past to kill John Connor's mother (knowing nothing at this point about Kyle). John, knowing about this event from his mother's training, sends Kyle to save John (by protected Sarah and impregnating her).

T1:The Terminator has no idea what Sarah looks like so he kills every Sarah Connor he can find in a specific city (obviously the Machines have some sort of record if they know WHERE to go and WHAT John's mother's name was). Kyle arrives, is caught by the police and gives several statements to the police and a psychiatrist about the future tech, war and why he is there aswell as who sends he and then he escapes and saves Sarah. He is then killed after leaving her pregnant. Sarah keeps the knowledge of the future to train John to be a step of the game in the future. The arm that is left behind is what leads to the jump in technology (already an alternate timeline is created as humanity is given a headstart on tech.)

T2: Judgement day is 2 years away and Sarah is in an asylum giving warnings about the future, talking about the importance of John, her encounter with Kyle and the Terminators. A Terminator arrives from the (unaltered) future to protect Sarah from a more advanced Terminator. (Both arrive at an insitution where both Machines had record of in the future, so that would mean that they have accessed the files in this institution.) In the end, they find out that the arm was found leading to fastly advancing technology in a timeline that is only just coming into existence. They destroy the lab that would have caused Judgement day and the little footprint they left in time from T1 turns into a crater in the spacetime continuum as they prevented judgement day. The future of T1 and T2 is now out of the picture due to what happens in T2's present day.

T3:A Terminator comes to the past (from the future that was created due to the events of T2's present) to kill John's generals (this again changes the future) and in the end uploads the last part of the skynet virus. The virus was already launching, but the new Terminator uploads files into the Skynet system and the machine's protocol. Wouldn't you think that she would also give a forewarning to all of the machine's when she did this just like when Kyle warned Sarah? When this happens, time is altered yet again and John is worried. The T-800 tells John about the future (conceived due to the events of T2's present), but again, the future is altered again when the T-X updates the virus in 2004.

Terminator Salvation: We finally jump a bit into the future, but this isn't the same future that Sarah was warned about in T1 because that timeline was altered when the arm was found and when Judgement Day was prevented. This isn't the events of the future created due to the prevention of Judgement Day either as half of the important military figures were killed and the virus updated the Skynet system. The events we see in TS are caused by the events of Present Day T3. Half of John's friends/comrads/soon-to-be soldiers never even lived to see judgement day and the machines of this time period know of the events leading up to the death of John Connor (based on the timeline following the events of T2's present). So now we have a John Connor who believes he knows Skynets every move, and a Skynet that thinks it knows John Connor's every move. Skynet tries to alter the would-be time again by using a "would-be" general of John's as bait (they know he's important as in the future we see in T3, based on the events of T2 he's supposed to be a general, and he gave a statement back in the 80's about the future (they don't know Skynet's perspective from the original 2029 because that timeline no longer exists)) So Skynet knowing now that Kyle is important to John and knowing that John is the one who will lead the resistence (as the T-X forewarned Skynet in T3) tries to lure John to one of Skynet's facilities to kill him using the first T-800. This T-800 is more powerful than the T-800s in the first three as the records that the T-X uploaded into the Skynet server in T3 probably mentioned the T-800's weaknesses (which is why the new T-800s are invulnerable to molten metal but in T2 that's how the T-800 killed himself).

Now I wouldn't be surprised if in T5 the T-800s are almost impossible to control. Look some people like to say how TS and T3 were completely BS and confusing because they have plot holes and miss points made in the other terminator films, but in all honestly, these are movies about time travel and about changing things to alter the future. The timeline changes every film, and it's been like this since the begining of T1 when Kyle spoke to the police (on record) about the future. This alone, would lead to some changes in the future.

I think those of you claiming that there are plot holes are experiencing one of these things:
A) You are incable of using inference
B) The plot is too all-over the place in all FOUR movies (not just T3/TS)
C) You chose to find things in newer installments of "classics" for the hell of it

 

[Figs]

Let's say my friend comes up to me, and says I tripped on a broom and broke my arm. I feel bad for him so I use my new time machine to try and alter the past so he does not break his arm.

So I go back in time and I'm trying to sneak around so he does not see me, and when I'm trying to make sure he does not break his arm I accidentally *fate* bump the broom, it falls on the ground and just like before my friend trips on the broom breaking his arm. I was always the cause of this, my wanting to change the past was always fate, and so I really can't change it. Because me creating the time machine has always happened. There is no other fate or way things go about. Using a time machine is just part of fate, and no matter what I do, it was suppose to happen that way regardless. Just like Skynet and John creating themselves. Unknowingly to them, but they did, and it was always fate. This part of the story always made it clear to me, that you can't change your fate. No matter what.

Trying to change your fate, is actually part of your fate, you want to believe you can change something, but in reality your just letting it actually really happen, because it always happens that way.

But some suggest, as did T1 for sure, you can't change anything, the twist in T1 was that the time traveling did not alter anything, it just made everything go the way it always was suppose to go.

Yet again this is just how I've always seen T1 and T2. I'm fine if some see different, the only thing that irks me is when people lower T1 and T2 and say they are problematic, and not that good so just go with it so they can justified loving T3 and T4. T1 and T2 in their self contained world made sense. But T3 and T4 messed things up in the ways I mentioned above. The changed time....but not really. Altering it slightly just seemed lazy and caused more problems connecting back.

But yet again, this is my view of it.

That example was actually pretty good in regards to trying to explain to someone in a simple way that they can understand it. Thanks for the explanation, it does make a bit more sense now. Basically these movies(as well as 12 Monkeys) rely on the world and human lives being stuck to 100% fate. Almost as if a possible God dealt everyone their cards and that's what you got and it won't change no matter how much you try(my example right there was probably the crappier of the two lol).

Personally, I do enjoy T3 and T4 even though they're incredibly inferior to the original 2. I'm one of those fans that just didn't keep trying to dive into the minute details that ruined the jump from T2 to T3. I remember people were complaining about dates used in the first 3 films and how it wouldn't match up in regards to how old John should have been in each film. That was the nitpicking I was glad to ignore(and easily, since they were dates that are thrown out there quickly in dialogue usually). As far as I was concerned with the whole age thing, 1st film he's unborn, 2nd film he's in his teens, 3rd film he's in his 20's and for TS he's an older adult in his 30's.

 

[Alonsovich]

For the whole "plot hole" thing in TS and how the timeline has been screwed up you must be nick in the head. Look at it one step at a time.

Future: There's a war that starts in 1997 and in 2029 when the machines start losing, they send a Terminator to the past to kill John Connor's mother (knowing nothing at this point about Kyle). John, knowing about this event from his mother's training, sends Kyle to save John (by protected Sarah and impregnating her).

T1:The Terminator has no idea what Sarah looks like so he kills every Sarah Connor he can find in a specific city (obviously the Machines have some sort of record if they know WHERE to go and WHAT John's mother's name was). Kyle arrives, is caught by the police and gives several statements to the police and a psychiatrist about the future tech, war and why he is there aswell as who sends he and then he escapes and saves Sarah. He is then killed after leaving her pregnant. Sarah keeps the knowledge of the future to train John to be a step of the game in the future. The arm that is left behind is what leads to the jump in technology (already an alternate timeline is created as humanity is given a headstart on tech.)

T2: Judgement day is 2 years away and Sarah is in an asylum giving warnings about the future, talking about the importance of John, her encounter with Kyle and the Terminators. A Terminator arrives from the (unaltered) future to protect Sarah from a more advanced Terminator. (Both arrive at an insitution where both Machines had record of in the future, so that would mean that they have accessed the files in this institution.) In the end, they find out that the arm was found leading to fastly advancing technology in a timeline that is only just coming into existence. They destroy the lab that would have caused Judgement day and the little footprint they left in time from T1 turns into a crater in the spacetime continuum as they prevented judgement day. The future of T1 and T2 is now out of the picture due to what happens in T2's present day.

T3:A Terminator comes to the past (from the future that was created due to the events of T2's present) to kill John's generals (this again changes the future) and in the end uploads the last part of the skynet virus. The virus was already launching, but the new Terminator uploads files into the Skynet system and the machine's protocol. Wouldn't you think that she would also give a forewarning to all of the machine's when she did this just like when Kyle warned Sarah? When this happens, time is altered yet again and John is worried. The T-800 tells John about the future (conceived due to the events of T2's present), but again, the future is altered again when the T-X updates the virus in 2004.

Terminator Salvation: We finally jump a bit into the future, but this isn't the same future that Sarah was warned about in T1 because that timeline was altered when the arm was found and when Judgement Day was prevented. This isn't the events of the future created due to the prevention of Judgement Day either as half of the important military figures were killed and the virus updated the Skynet system. The events we see in TS are caused by the events of Present Day T3. Half of John's friends/comrads/soon-to-be soldiers never even lived to see judgement day and the machines of this time period know of the events leading up to the death of John Connor (based on the timeline following the events of T2's present). So now we have a John Connor who believes he knows Skynets every move, and a Skynet that thinks it knows John Connor's every move. Skynet tries to alter the would-be time again by using a "would-be" general of John's as bait (they know he's important as in the future we see in T3, based on the events of T2 he's supposed to be a general, and he gave a statement back in the 80's about the future (they don't know Skynet's perspective from the original 2029 because that timeline no longer exists)) So Skynet knowing now that Kyle is important to John and knowing that John is the one who will lead the resistence (as the T-X forewarned Skynet in T3) tries to lure John to one of Skynet's facilities to kill him using the first T-800. This T-800 is more powerful than the T-800s in the first three as the records that the T-X uploaded into the Skynet server in T3 probably mentioned the T-800's weaknesses (which is why the new T-800s are invulnerable to molten metal but in T2 that's how the T-800 killed himself).

Now I wouldn't be surprised if in T5 the T-800s are almost impossible to control. Look some people like to say how TS and T3 were completely BS and confusing because they have plot holes and miss points made in the other terminator films, but in all honestly, these are movies about time travel and about changing things to alter the future. The timeline changes every film, and it's been like this since the begining of T1 when Kyle spoke to the police (on record) about the future. This alone, would lead to some changes in the future.

I think those of you claiming that there are plot holes are experiencing one of these things:
A) You are incable of using inference
B) The plot is too all-over the place in all FOUR movies (not just T3/TS)
C) You chose to find things in newer installments of "classics" for the hell of it

This. T1 was already creating an alternate timeline.

 

[TheFuture]

For the whole "plot hole" thing in TS and how the timeline has been screwed up you must be nick in the head. Look at it one step at a time.

Future: There's a war that starts in 1997 and in 2029 when the machines start losing, they send a Terminator to the past to kill John Connor's mother (knowing nothing at this point about Kyle). John, knowing about this event from his mother's training, sends Kyle to save John (by protected Sarah and impregnating her).

T1:The Terminator has no idea what Sarah looks like so he kills every Sarah Connor he can find in a specific city (obviously the Machines have some sort of record if they know WHERE to go and WHAT John's mother's name was). Kyle arrives, is caught by the police and gives several statements to the police and a psychiatrist about the future tech, war and why he is there aswell as who sends he and then he escapes and saves Sarah. He is then killed after leaving her pregnant. Sarah keeps the knowledge of the future to train John to be a step of the game in the future. The arm that is left behind is what leads to the jump in technology (already an alternate timeline is created as humanity is given a headstart on tech.)

T2: Judgement day is 2 years away and Sarah is in an asylum giving warnings about the future, talking about the importance of John, her encounter with Kyle and the Terminators. A Terminator arrives from the (unaltered) future to protect Sarah from a more advanced Terminator. (Both arrive at an insitution where both Machines had record of in the future, so that would mean that they have accessed the files in this institution.) In the end, they find out that the arm was found leading to fastly advancing technology in a timeline that is only just coming into existence. They destroy the lab that would have caused Judgement day and the little footprint they left in time from T1 turns into a crater in the spacetime continuum as they prevented judgement day. The future of T1 and T2 is now out of the picture due to what happens in T2's present day.

T3:A Terminator comes to the past (from the future that was created due to the events of T2's present) to kill John's generals (this again changes the future) and in the end uploads the last part of the skynet virus. The virus was already launching, but the new Terminator uploads files into the Skynet system and the machine's protocol. Wouldn't you think that she would also give a forewarning to all of the machine's when she did this just like when Kyle warned Sarah? When this happens, time is altered yet again and John is worried. The T-800 tells John about the future (conceived due to the events of T2's present), but again, the future is altered again when the T-X updates the virus in 2004.

Terminator Salvation: We finally jump a bit into the future, but this isn't the same future that Sarah was warned about in T1 because that timeline was altered when the arm was found and when Judgement Day was prevented. This isn't the events of the future created due to the prevention of Judgement Day either as half of the important military figures were killed and the virus updated the Skynet system. The events we see in TS are caused by the events of Present Day T3. Half of John's friends/comrads/soon-to-be soldiers never even lived to see judgement day and the machines of this time period know of the events leading up to the death of John Connor (based on the timeline following the events of T2's present). So now we have a John Connor who believes he knows Skynets every move, and a Skynet that thinks it knows John Connor's every move. Skynet tries to alter the would-be time again by using a "would-be" general of John's as bait (they know he's important as in the future we see in T3, based on the events of T2 he's supposed to be a general, and he gave a statement back in the 80's about the future (they don't know Skynet's perspective from the original 2029 because that timeline no longer exists)) So Skynet knowing now that Kyle is important to John and knowing that John is the one who will lead the resistence (as the T-X forewarned Skynet in T3) tries to lure John to one of Skynet's facilities to kill him using the first T-800. This T-800 is more powerful than the T-800s in the first three as the records that the T-X uploaded into the Skynet server in T3 probably mentioned the T-800's weaknesses (which is why the new T-800s are invulnerable to molten metal but in T2 that's how the T-800 killed himself).

Now I wouldn't be surprised if in T5 the T-800s are almost impossible to control. Look some people like to say how TS and T3 were completely BS and confusing because they have plot holes and miss points made in the other terminator films, but in all honestly, these are movies about time travel and about changing things to alter the future. The timeline changes every film, and it's been like this since the begining of T1 when Kyle spoke to the police (on record) about the future. This alone, would lead to some changes in the future.

I think those of you claiming that there are plot holes are experiencing one of these things:
A) You are incable of using inference
B) The plot is too all-over the place in all FOUR movies (not just T3/TS)
C) You chose to find things in newer installments of "classics" for the hell of it

Wow, impressive post, and a nice change from what's usually said around here.

 

[batman11]

Interesting talk about all the different time travel theories. I never knew that people were so divided. Personally, I was always part of the "100% Fate" camp that Solidus has been describing. I continue to look at the story as one big circle. If anyone still had trouble understanding it, I find using Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban (I know, such contrasting movie franchises) as a means of explaining this. I don't want to spoil anything for those who have not seen the film, but if you have, think about it, and you may be able to grasp the concept better. Following this circle theory, I always felt that if we want to get technical, neither Sarah nor John are actually in any danger during T1 and T2, because the fact that Kyle and the T-800s came back prove that John lives on to send them back in the future. Just my fun little technicality I like to think of. With T3 and TS however, the rules were bent to adhere to the new stories.

 

[Solidus]

Asteroid Man do you have to "degrade" the person you are talking to to make their point. But I guess that mirrors what I said when I find it funny people degrade the first two films, so they can fit the third and forth in there and claim them to be as good as films. Yet, I never said a person is less for liking T3/T4 just as much as some one like me who does not like them. Which of course then we are discussing, opinion. To me it has nothing to do with this classic/new crap. Did you see me here in these forums prior? And the people that knew me on T3.com. I have been rooting for TS and T3. I never was "against" them. I was quite the opposite and most on these forums and TAF/T3.com could vouch for me on that. But they came out....and I just did not like them at all. To me it went against what I had thought. I originally did agree with the altered time lines from T3, to a point I'm not against them. But TS was to me messed up in more then one way. And I know I'm not alone with this thought either, it seems to be quite common on how people feel of T3/T4. But those that like them, I never said they cannot, I'm just stating why I feel differently. No need to get personal.

To me there was no alteration of the time line in T1 and T2. We know that in T2 it takes place in 1995. It claims on the computer that John is born in February of 1985. It claims he is 10. So T2 takes place 2 years before JD originally takes place.

What does not make sense to me, if the arm does change the timeline, and alters it.......why the hell would it take longer to make Skynet? Wouln't JD happen much earlier then? If not in 97 maybe in 91? See to me the way it was all going about, because in T2 the Terminator claims that Skynet will be activated and destory the world in 97. So to me that was no different then what the first said, and yet again I will put in caps IN MY VIEW, it does not change anything. Nothing has been changed.

There is two views with the Terminator franchise. One, everything deals with altered time lines, fate is changed yadda yadda. The other, you can't change fate, and this always happened this way, fate has one path and you may think your changing it but you are just actually unfolding what was always in store for you.

I always took it the way that you can't change anything. Because with out Kyle Reese going back in time....you never have John Connor. The reason John Connor becomes the leader is because he knows of the future and is prepared for this. Not just because he was lucky. So John was always trained because he always knew of the future. There was never a time line where he was just a normal dude, then boom he became the leader. It never claims that.

But yet again, it comes down to opinion. And I do not agree with the Altered time lines. And of course with my points of view on the past few pages of it. And maybe you can look at the films like Blade Runner they can be both (of course just with T1 and T2) I see it as you can't change fate. Others may see differently. But in my view trying to change everything....yet not just ruins it all.

And to Asteroid Man.....I disagree about them knowing of Sarah in the institution. There is a part where the T-1000 is looking up everything about John on the police computer. And it has info about his mother in there as well. It never said he knew from the future where Sarah was. I just don't' see it that way and to me the movie always spoke clearly to me that the T-1000 knew nothing except maybe minor details as before. And the T-800 was reprogrammed, so yea...John told him where he wanted to go and probably he knew additional info. This scene also shows John's age, and says Father Unknown...Mother: Sarah Connor. It was clear that the T-1000 knew nothing about John/Sarah, that is why he had to use the Police Computer. If the T-1000 knew this info....why would he look it up? To me I always saw it as clear that the T-1000 knew nothing, he had to look it up to find it. So no in T2 they had no prior knowledge.


As for the other stuff it is interesting but I don't take it that way at all. Beauty of opinions eh. And as I always say...to eaches own.

 

[Solidus]

Interesting talk about all the different time travel theories. I never knew that people were so divided. Personally, I was always part of the "100% Fate" camp that Solidus has been describing. I continue to look at the story as one big circle. If anyone still had trouble understanding it, I find using Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban (I know, such contrasting movie franchises) as a means of explaining this. I don't want to spoil anything for those who have not seen the film, but if you have, think about it, and you may be able to grasp the concept better. Following this circle theory, I always felt that if we want to get technical, neither Sarah nor John are actually in any danger during T1 and T2, because the fact that Kyle and the T-800s came back prove that John lives on to send them back in the future. Just my fun little technicality I like to think of. With T3 and TS however, the rules were bent to adhere to the new stories.

And see on old Terminator sites and TAF there was always two camps. And I use to jump around on both. Even stories I wrote in The Terminator universe sometimes I would look at the altered state of the timelines.

But I agree as well, to me it is cyclical, and using Harry Potter is actually a great way to put it. That is exactly how I always took T1 and T2.

And I am not saying that others can look at it the other way. It's just since I saw T2 in theaters, I always took it as you can't change anything. That it is all fate. But if others like to see it the other way that's fine. But that's why I liked Terminator is because it took a different approach to Time travel then other movies, is where you really don't change anything.

 

[Solidus]

That example was actually pretty good in regards to trying to explain to someone in a simple way that they can understand it. Thanks for the explanation, it does make a bit more sense now. Basically these movies(as well as 12 Monkeys) rely on the world and human lives being stuck to 100% fate. Almost as if a possible God dealt everyone their cards and that's what you got and it won't change no matter how much you try(my example right there was probably the crappier of the two lol).

Personally, I do enjoy T3 and T4 even though they're incredibly inferior to the original 2. I'm one of those fans that just didn't keep trying to dive into the minute details that ruined the jump from T2 to T3. I remember people were complaining about dates used in the first 3 films and how it wouldn't match up in regards to how old John should have been in each film. That was the nitpicking I was glad to ignore(and easily, since they were dates that are thrown out there quickly in dialogue usually). As far as I was concerned with the whole age thing, 1st film he's unborn, 2nd film he's in his teens, 3rd film he's in his 20's and for TS he's an older adult in his 30's.

Yea, see I enjoyed T3, it was a fun movie, with out a doubt inferior to the first two, but it was still fun. The Future war part in that was such a tease, I wanted more. But Yea I enjoyed T3.

TS, to me just really failed, on almost every level to me. It had some good ideas, but it was just poorly made, but that's me.

As for "god handing out cards" that is another way to put it. And was always a theme in Terminator that I never really acknowledged as much, but the savior story is what Terminator is slightly about, JC, the savior of humanity so on so forth. Even in T2 he said the intro was to show the four horseman of the apocalypse. And even the word Judgment day lol.

So yea I always took it as you can't change it, you are handed cards, one may feel they are changing something, but in the end you find out you really just did what was going to happen. There is no changing it.

 

[Figs]

Yea, see I enjoyed T3, it was a fun movie, with out a doubt inferior to the first two, but it was still fun. The Future war part in that was such a tease, I wanted more. But Yea I enjoyed T3.

TS, to me just really failed, on almost every level to me. It had some good ideas, but it was just poorly made, but that's me.

As for "god handing out cards" that is another way to put it. And was always a theme in Terminator that I never really acknowledged as much, but the savior story is what Terminator is slightly about, JC, the savior of humanity so on so forth. Even in T2 he said the intro was to show the four horseman of the apocalypse. And even the word Judgment day lol.

So yea I always took it as you can't change it, you are handed cards, one may feel they are changing something, but in the end you find out you really just did what was going to happen. There is no changing it.

Thanks again for the explanations. I think I have a full grasp on how the time travel works in Terminator and certain other films like 12 Monkeys now.

 

[Solidus]

Thanks again for the explanations. I think I have a full grasp on how the time travel works in Terminator and certain other films like 12 Monkeys now.

NP, some may see it differently, and that's cool too. But from a young age that is always what I took out of it.

 

[batman11]

And see on old Terminator sites and TAF there was always two camps. And I use to jump around on both. Even stories I wrote in The Terminator universe sometimes I would look at the altered state of the timelines.

But I agree as well, to me it is cyclical, and using Harry Potter is actually a great way to put it. That is exactly how I always took T1 and T2.

And I am not saying that others can look at it the other way. It's just since I saw T2 in theaters, I always took it as you can't change anything. That it is all fate. But if others like to see it the other way that's fine. But that's why I liked Terminator is because it took a different approach to Time travel then other movies, is where you really don't change anything.

That's interesting. I've always been a huge Terminator fan, but I never really got into the forums and stuff. I think it's kind of neat that there are such wavering opinions on the time travel, especially given the fact that I always accepted the cyclical theory as the truth from the get-go. It's what I formulated when first seeing the films and what I felt made sense, therefore I continue to follow this belief.

I can't say that I will be persuaded to think differently (although it could happen...I doubt it though t, but I do appreciate the arguments from the other side and hold nothing against them for having a different viewpoint on the time travel aspect of the series.

For me, I just love the idea of a cycle, especially when the king of all paradoxes is the danger that I mentioned in my other post. Like you said Solidus, if something happens, then that means it has always happened, will always happen and was always meant to happen. If we apply this idea to the T-800 in T-2 coming back, for example, and think about the situation, we can make some interesting assumptions. With the T-800 back in present day, it means that it was always meant to be sent back in time by John; therefore, John must to survive T-2 otherwise the movie would make no sense.

I'm glad you enjoy the Harry Potter comparison. When I first read the book, I didn't quite get the cyclical feeling, but some of the visual cues they use in the movie to display this instantly reminded me of Terminator time travel and how everything was always "meant to be."

Good discussion. Very interesting.

 

[Solidus]

That's interesting. I've always been a huge Terminator fan, but I never really got into the forums and stuff. I think it's kind of neat that there are such wavering opinions on the time travel, especially given the fact that I always accepted the cyclical theory as the truth from the get-go. It's what I formulated when first seeing the films and what I felt made sense, therefore I continue to follow this belief.

I can't say that I will be persuaded to think differently (although it could happen...I doubt it though t, but I do appreciate the arguments from the other side and hold nothing against them for having a different viewpoint on the time travel aspect of the series.

For me, I just love the idea of a cycle, especially when the king of all paradoxes is the danger that I mentioned in my other post. Like you said Solidus, if something happens, then that means it has always happened, will always happen and was always meant to happen. If we apply this idea to the T-800 in T-2 coming back, for example, and think about the situation, we can make some interesting assumptions. With the T-800 back in present day, it means that it was always meant to be sent back in time by John; therefore, John must to survive T-2 otherwise the movie would make no sense.

I'm glad you enjoy the Harry Potter comparison. When I first read the book, I didn't quite get the cyclical feeling, but some of the visual cues they use in the movie to display this instantly reminded me of Terminator time travel and how everything was always "meant to be."

Good discussion. Very interesting.

At a time with T3 I looked at some in depth ideas of alternate time lines, it could work, and its just they did not make it work the right way in my view. But I went back to the original cyclical thinking. And to me that was what James was always trying to say.

If others have different views of it I don't condemn them for thinking so. But it really was not until the late 90's that I started to hear ideas of "alternate time lines" Before hand me and most people I would talk with even on the Internet always took it as you can't change it.

 

[batman11]

At a time with T3 I looked at some in depth ideas of alternate time lines, it could work, and its just they did not make it work the right way in my view. But I went back to the original cyclical thinking. And to me that was what James was always trying to say.

Yeah, I can see why T-3 would have put some stock in the alternate timelines theory. Which is why, like I mentioned, that I like to think the original two function as cyclical timelines, after which I look at T3 and TS as films which adjusted and bent this theory to fit the particular stories.

 

[Legion]

That's interesting. I've always been a huge Terminator fan, but I never really got into the forums and stuff. I think it's kind of neat that there are such wavering opinions on the time travel, especially given the fact that I always accepted the cyclical theory as the truth from the get-go. It's what I formulated when first seeing the films and what I felt made sense, therefore I continue to follow this belief.

I can't say that I will be persuaded to think differently (although it could happen...I doubt it though t, but I do appreciate the arguments from the other side and hold nothing against them for having a different viewpoint on the time travel aspect of the series.

For me, I just love the idea of a cycle, especially when the king of all paradoxes is the danger that I mentioned in my other post. Like you said Solidus, if something happens, then that means it has always happened, will always happen and was always meant to happen. If we apply this idea to the T-800 in T-2 coming back, for example, and think about the situation, we can make some interesting assumptions. With the T-800 back in present day, it means that it was always meant to be sent back in time by John; therefore, John must to survive T-2 otherwise the movie would make no sense.

I'm glad you enjoy the Harry Potter comparison. When I first read the book, I didn't quite get the cyclical feeling, but some of the visual cues they use in the movie to display this instantly reminded me of Terminator time travel and how everything was always "meant to be."

Good discussion. Very interesting.

But the cycle was broken in T-2. The theme for T-2 was that we made our own fate.

Cyberdyne labs was destroyed, Miles Dyson was killed, and the inspiration for skynet, the T-800 pieces were destroyed as well. Sara, John, and the T-800 prevented skynet's creation and averted Judgement day.

If time worked in a cycle John would also be preventing his own birth. Without Skynet and Judgement Day there would be no need to send Reese back in time and John would cease to exist.

Without getting into T-3...the ending of T-2 seems to suggest an alternate timeline rather than a time loop.

 

[Solidus]

But the cycle was broken in T-2. The theme for T-2 was that we made our own fate.

Cyberdyne labs was destroyed, Miles Dyson was killed, and the inspiration for skynet, the T-800 pieces were destroyed as well. Sara, John, and the T-800 prevented skynet's creation and averted Judgement day.

If time worked in a cycle John would also be preventing his own birth. Without Skynet and Judgement Day there would be no need to send Reese back in time and John would cease to exist.

Without getting into T-3...the ending of T-2 seems to suggest an alternate timeline rather than a time loop.

Read my part two about 2 pages back. To me T2 ASKED the question can you change it. But it never showed anything. Nor did it flat out say they changed the future, it was always asked as more of a question. If they would have changed it they would have kept the original alternate ending in, where everything was fine. Cameron cut it out to leave it ambiguous. It is possible. But it is also possible, that them destroying the arm and chip, and Dyson was just a step forward and was always going to happen that way, they just did not know they were helping fate along.

I took T2 that way, but of course T3 changes that. But I explain that more how I see it a few pages back, and how a lot of other fans feel too. Not everyone though.