Terminator: Salvation - The NEW new thread

[batman11]

But the cycle was broken in T-2. The theme for T-2 was that we made our own fate.

Cyberdyne labs was destroyed, Miles Dyson was killed, and the inspiration for skynet, the T-800 pieces were destroyed as well. Sara, John, and the T-800 prevented skynet's creation and averted Judgement day.

If time worked in a cycle John would also be preventing his own birth. Without Skynet and Judgement Day there would be no need to send Reese back in time and John would cease to exist.

Without getting into T-3...the ending of T-2 seems to suggest an alternate timeline rather than a time loop.

I see your point here. Solidus' answer is very similar to what I would ave said. Sarah's closing lines mention the idea of "Did it all matter? Did we really stop Judgement Day?" Like Solidus mentioned, were they really preventing it, or were their actions just apart of the web of fate that they were trapped in? As for how Skynet came about in the future when Cyberdyne was destroyed, one can only guess, because we were never given Cameron's T-3. Even with alternate timelines, we saw that the time travelers came back, meaning that in each alternate timeline, somehow Skynet would come to fruition, making Judgement Day unavoidable.

I must admit, I am beginning to confuse myself. One could say I feel like I'm running in circle.

 

[Mr. Para-Normal]

I don't get it really. People trashed Transformers 2 for its plot and dialouge and whatnot but this movie has the same problems. Sure it may not have immature sex humor but the plot has lots of WTF momments and things that just don't make sense. As well as useless characters like Star, Connors wife, (nothing against those actors though). Plus some LOL dialouge an example would be common's character Barnes. Plus the action scenes were rather forgettable. So why don't people at this site trash this movie as much as they do Transformers 2?

(ps. I am one of the few people on this site that like TF2 much more than this movie).

 

[LostSon88]

Read my part two about 2 pages back. To me T2 ASKED the question can you change it. But it never showed anything. Nor did it flat out say they changed the future, it was always asked as more of a question. If they would have changed it they would have kept the original alternate ending in, where everything was fine. Cameron cut it out to leave it ambiguous. It is possible. But it is also possible, that them destroying the arm and chip, and Dyson was just a step forward and was always going to happen that way, they just did not know they were helping fate along.

I took T2 that way, but of course T3 changes that. But I explain that more how I see it a few pages back, and how a lot of other fans feel too. Not everyone though.

Okay so having a day to think about this...here is my take on the whole Terminator idea and how it relates to your perspective.

As you said in T1, the message behind it is that destiny is destiny and that no matter how hard you fight it, everything will happen the way its supposed to.

T2 was the idea of questioning whether or not destiny can be changed and whether it was possible.

T3 (FOR ME) was the idea of coming to the realization that no matter how much you may try to change your destiny you simply cannot escape it.

TS was the aftermath of what has happened since you have tried to alter your destiny.

We all have varying interpretations of Time Travel...obviously none of which can be proven or disproven. I think where you and I disagree Solidus is when it comes to this subject. You seem to believe in the theory of what was established in the first two Terminator films where the timeline seemed to play in a continious loop.

My argument is that with the inclusion of T3 and TS it simply destroys that idea and presents the "Butterfly Effect," the notion that by attempting to change and alter the future they have actually made it worse than what it originally was.

For me, in an original timeline, Kyle Reese was not John Connors father however by sending him back to 1984, it created an alternate timeline where he is. In relation to TS, all of the previous tampering in the past has created a world where Skynet knows about Kyle Reese and John Connor, where the T-600s are not what they were originally described as and where a T-800 is developed nearly 10 years ahead of time.

The future we are presented in TS is not the future the Kyle Reese in 1984 is familiar with...there are similarities sure, but by simply going back in time he essentially created a whole new future entirely different than the one he came from. The concept they used in the latest Star Trek film is the best way I can describe my feelings towards the Terminator franchise...esp. after watching Salvation.

As is the case in that film...everything that is destined to happen WILL HAPPEN i.e. John becoming the leader of the resistance (as Kirk became Captain of the Enterprise), T-800s, sending Kyle back to 1984...it will simply take a whole lot longer and very different circumstances.

So what i'm saying is, as established in T1 and T2, what is destined to happen will happen. But as established in T3 and TS, thanks to the constant alterations in the timeline, the journey to get there will be much more complicated than originally planned.

 

[Solidus]

Okay so having a day to think about this...here is my take on the whole Terminator idea and how it relates to your perspective.

As you said in T1, the message behind it is that destiny is destiny and that no matter how hard you fight it, everything will happen the way its supposed to.

T2 was the idea of questioning whether or not destiny can be changed and whether it was possible.

T3 (FOR ME) was the idea of coming to the realization that no matter how much you may try to change your destiny you simply cannot escape it.

TS was the aftermath of what has happened since you have tried to alter your destiny.

We all have varying interpretations of Time Travel...obviously none of which can be proven or disproven. I think where you and I disagree Solidus is when it comes to this subject. You seem to believe in the theory of what was established in the first two Terminator films where the timeline seemed to play in a continious loop.

My argument is that with the inclusion of T3 and TS it simply destroys that idea and presents the "Butterfly Effect," the notion that by attempting to change and alter the future they have actually made it worse than what it originally was.

For me, in an original timeline, Kyle Reese was not John Connors father however by sending him back to 1984, it created an alternate timeline where he is. In relation to TS, all of the previous tampering in the past has created a world where Skynet knows about Kyle Reese and John Connor, where the T-600s are not what they were originally described as and where a T-800 is developed nearly 10 years ahead of time.

The future we are presented in TS is not the future the Kyle Reese in 1984 is familiar with...there are similarities sure, but by simply going back in time he essentially created a whole new future entirely different than the one he came from. The concept they used in the latest Star Trek film is the best way I can describe my feelings towards the Terminator franchise...esp. after watching Salvation.

As is the case in that film...everything that is destined to happen WILL HAPPEN i.e. John becoming the leader of the resistance (as Kirk became Captain of the Enterprise), T-800s, sending Kyle back to 1984...it will simply take a whole lot longer and very different circumstances.

So what i'm saying is, as established in T1 and T2, what is destined to happen will happen. But as established in T3 and TS, thanks to the constant alterations in the timeline, the journey to get there will be much more complicated than originally planned.

Yes I do understand this. And well written. I just feel that that is where T3 and T4 messed up. I wished they would have continued the way Cameron did it, but I do not lie that what T3 and TS has given us has changed it. But I still in my own little world think this way for T1 and T2.

But yea I understand where you coming from. And I fully respect your view on it.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

For the whole "plot hole" thing in TS and how the timeline has been screwed up you must be nick in the head. Look at it one step at a time.

Future: There's a war that starts in 1997 and in 2029 when the machines start losing, they send a Terminator to the past to kill John Connor's mother (knowing nothing at this point about Kyle). John, knowing about this event from his mother's training, sends Kyle to save John (by protected Sarah and impregnating her).

T1:The Terminator has no idea what Sarah looks like so he kills every Sarah Connor he can find in a specific city (obviously the Machines have some sort of record if they know WHERE to go and WHAT John's mother's name was). Kyle arrives, is caught by the police and gives several statements to the police and a psychiatrist about the future tech, war and why he is there aswell as who sends he and then he escapes and saves Sarah. He is then killed after leaving her pregnant. Sarah keeps the knowledge of the future to train John to be a step of the game in the future. The arm that is left behind is what leads to the jump in technology (already an alternate timeline is created as humanity is given a headstart on tech.)

T2: Judgement day is 2 years away and Sarah is in an asylum giving warnings about the future, talking about the importance of John, her encounter with Kyle and the Terminators. A Terminator arrives from the (unaltered) future to protect Sarah from a more advanced Terminator. (Both arrive at an insitution where both Machines had record of in the future, so that would mean that they have accessed the files in this institution.) In the end, they find out that the arm was found leading to fastly advancing technology in a timeline that is only just coming into existence. They destroy the lab that would have caused Judgement day and the little footprint they left in time from T1 turns into a crater in the spacetime continuum as they prevented judgement day. The future of T1 and T2 is now out of the picture due to what happens in T2's present day.

T3:A Terminator comes to the past (from the future that was created due to the events of T2's present) to kill John's generals (this again changes the future) and in the end uploads the last part of the skynet virus. The virus was already launching, but the new Terminator uploads files into the Skynet system and the machine's protocol. Wouldn't you think that she would also give a forewarning to all of the machine's when she did this just like when Kyle warned Sarah? When this happens, time is altered yet again and John is worried. The T-800 tells John about the future (conceived due to the events of T2's present), but again, the future is altered again when the T-X updates the virus in 2004.

Terminator Salvation: We finally jump a bit into the future, but this isn't the same future that Sarah was warned about in T1 because that timeline was altered when the arm was found and when Judgement Day was prevented. This isn't the events of the future created due to the prevention of Judgement Day either as half of the important military figures were killed and the virus updated the Skynet system. The events we see in TS are caused by the events of Present Day T3. Half of John's friends/comrads/soon-to-be soldiers never even lived to see judgement day and the machines of this time period know of the events leading up to the death of John Connor (based on the timeline following the events of T2's present). So now we have a John Connor who believes he knows Skynets every move, and a Skynet that thinks it knows John Connor's every move. Skynet tries to alter the would-be time again by using a "would-be" general of John's as bait (they know he's important as in the future we see in T3, based on the events of T2 he's supposed to be a general, and he gave a statement back in the 80's about the future (they don't know Skynet's perspective from the original 2029 because that timeline no longer exists)) So Skynet knowing now that Kyle is important to John and knowing that John is the one who will lead the resistence (as the T-X forewarned Skynet in T3) tries to lure John to one of Skynet's facilities to kill him using the first T-800. This T-800 is more powerful than the T-800s in the first three as the records that the T-X uploaded into the Skynet server in T3 probably mentioned the T-800's weaknesses (which is why the new T-800s are invulnerable to molten metal but in T2 that's how the T-800 killed himself).

Now I wouldn't be surprised if in T5 the T-800s are almost impossible to control. Look some people like to say how TS and T3 were completely BS and confusing because they have plot holes and miss points made in the other terminator films, but in all honestly, these are movies about time travel and about changing things to alter the future. The timeline changes every film, and it's been like this since the begining of T1 when Kyle spoke to the police (on record) about the future. This alone, would lead to some changes in the future.

I think those of you claiming that there are plot holes are experiencing one of these things:
A) You are incable of using inference
B) The plot is too all-over the place in all FOUR movies (not just T3/TS)
C) You chose to find things in newer installments of "classics" for the hell of it

This is a good post, but there is still one fundamental flaw regarding TS, how would they know of Kyle's existence? There werent computers in 1984 capable of storing video records so how would Skynet ever learn of Kyle's existence exactly? Not to mention the Police station itself was completely destroyed and every cop except Silberman killed. And Silberman never believed the story's of Kyle or Sarah in T1 and T2 anyway

So how would Skynet know of Kyle's existence, and even more of a flaw is, how the hell would they be able to indentify him? There are no records of his existence seeing as he was born after the war.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Okay so having a day to think about this...here is my take on the whole Terminator idea and how it relates to your perspective.

As you said in T1, the message behind it is that destiny is destiny and that no matter how hard you fight it, everything will happen the way its supposed to.

T2 was the idea of questioning whether or not destiny can be changed and whether it was possible.

T3 (FOR ME) was the idea of coming to the realization that no matter how much you may try to change your destiny you simply cannot escape it.

TS was the aftermath of what has happened since you have tried to alter your destiny.

We all have varying interpretations of Time Travel...obviously none of which can be proven or disproven. I think where you and I disagree Solidus is when it comes to this subject. You seem to believe in the theory of what was established in the first two Terminator films where the timeline seemed to play in a continious loop.

My argument is that with the inclusion of T3 and TS it simply destroys that idea and presents the "Butterfly Effect," the notion that by attempting to change and alter the future they have actually made it worse than what it originally was.

For me, in an original timeline, Kyle Reese was not John Connors father however by sending him back to 1984, it created an alternate timeline where he is. In relation to TS, all of the previous tampering in the past has created a world where Skynet knows about Kyle Reese and John Connor, where the T-600s are not what they were originally described as and where a T-800 is developed nearly 10 years ahead of time.
The future we are presented in TS is not the future the Kyle Reese in 1984 is familiar with...there are similarities sure, but by simply going back in time he essentially created a whole new future entirely different than the one he came from. The concept they used in the latest Star Trek film is the best way I can describe my feelings towards the Terminator franchise...esp. after watching Salvation.

As is the case in that film...everything that is destined to happen WILL HAPPEN i.e. John becoming the leader of the resistance (as Kirk became Captain of the Enterprise), T-800s, sending Kyle back to 1984...it will simply take a whole lot longer and very different circumstances.

So what i'm saying is, as established in T1 and T2, what is destined to happen will happen. But as established in T3 and TS, thanks to the constant alterations in the timeline, the journey to get there will be much more complicated than originally planned.

Kyle was always meant to be John's Father, John knew this and this is why he gave the picture of Sarah to Kyle, because he knows Kyle falls in love with Sarah through it.

Remember the line "John Connor gave me a picture of you once, I didnt know why at the time......it was very old, torn..........you were young like you are now.....I used to always wonder what you were thinking at that moment, I memorised every line, every curve.....I came across time for you Sarah, I love you, I always have."

Kyle also mentions Sarah preparing John from when he was a kid for the war while they were in hiding, teaching him to 'fight,' 'organise,' etc. Kyle was always and will always be John's father.

 

[MOVIELORD101]

Just bought the 2-Disk Blu-Ray DVD yesterday, and, watching the Director's Cut, it's pretty much on par with the Theatrical Cut, which I REALLY enjoyed in the theater. The only new stuff I noticed were Blair's topless scene (didn't think it was required, actually, despite what McG says; that scene doesn't really move the story along that much), and that missing shot from the teaser trailer of the Terminator popping out from behind John Connor and his group, who quickly open fire and take it out (a moment I'm happy to see WB put back in for continuity's sake for that opening raid on the Skynet bunker; the fact that it wasn't in the Theatrical Cut to begin with made that scene feel a little off-beat with that small bit missing). Overall, unlike the Director's Cut of Watchmen, which was a HELLUVA lot better than that movie's Theatrical Cut, the Director's Cut of Terminator Salvation is only a little better than the TC because it doesn't really bring anything major that was stupidly cut out to the table like the Watchmen DC did. That doesn't mean that it's still an enjoyable version of the film, though.

Theatrical Cut: 8/10
Director's Cut: 8.5/10 (for putting that key moment I mentioned above back in)

 

[Figs]

I don't get it really. People trashed Transformers 2 for its plot and dialouge and whatnot but this movie has the same problems. Sure it may not have immature sex humor but the plot has lots of WTF momments and things that just don't make sense. As well as useless characters like Star, Connors wife, (nothing against those actors though). Plus some LOL dialouge an example would be common's character Barnes. Plus the action scenes were rather forgettable. So why don't people at this site trash this movie as much as they do Transformers 2?

(ps. I am one of the few people on this site that like TF2 much more than this movie).

In bold is one of the big reasons.

The other reasons, the film may have had plot holes and some sketchy dialogue but it was nowhere near as bad as TF2. That's why people aren't talking **** about TS on the same level as TF2.

Transformers 2 was all around terrible. Only thing good about it was the action BUT the action wasn't all that amazing. For me it lost it's spectacle after being able to see the transformations in the first film. After that, seeing them in the second film wasn't as awesome.

Another reason is TF2 was all over the place in story and tone. Bay tried to appeal to too many people and had too many somewhat serious scenes mixed in with way too much humour, which made the film uneven. The story had way too many jumps going on in it. It should have been a bit more straightforward instead of trying to throw as many locations and whatnot in just to make it cool and try to be epic.

Terminator Salvation wasn't a great movie and it wasn't all that good either(especially when compared to how it could have turned out) but I wouldn't call it flat out terrible or ****...like TF2.

 

[I SEE SPIDEY]

Terminator Salvation is not a good movie but nothing last year was as bad as Transformers 2 IMHO.

 

[MadVillainy]

Terminator Salvation is not a good movie but nothing last year was as bad as Transformers 2 IMHO.

Did you see Gamer?

2nd movie I ever walked out of

 

[I SEE SPIDEY]

Did you see Gamer?

2nd movie I ever walked out of

Why would I ever watch Gamer when I infact hated Crank? I've already endured Transformers, The Final Destination, My Bloody Valentine 3D and Angels and Demons. I think I'll skip Gamer altogether, I couldn't bare another terrible movie from 2009 right now.

 

[MOVIELORD101]

Terminator Salvation is not a good movie but nothing last year was as bad as Transformers 2 IMHO.

Actually, Transformers 2 was pretty good. The first act was HORRIBLE due to those lame jokes, but everything after the scene with the Deception chick got A LOT better as it went along. Plus, that forest battle scene was AWESOME!

G.I. JOE, ON THE OTHER HAND, now THAT was a piece of ****! *shudder*

 

[Figs]

Actually, Transformers 2 was pretty good. The first act was HORRIBLE due to those lame jokes, but everything after the scene with the Deception chick got A LOT better as it went along. Plus, that forrest battle scene was AWESOME!

G.I. JOE, ON THE OTHER HAND, now THAT was a piece of ****! *shudder*

I don't know.

Although G.I. Joe was also pretty damn bad, at least it felt and stayed with it's roots. Watching G.I. Joe, not only did I feel a bit like a kid again it actually felt like it was based on the G.I. Joe cartoon.

Transformers 2, simply put...didn't. Bay added so much stupidity to it, it felt like it's own thing and not like what it was based on...minus having transforming robots of course.

As other people have said. When it's a film that you know is going to have a lot of fairly young kids watching it due to what it's based on, putting in all that sexual humour(immature and moronic I might add) was the wrong way to go. Bay has no tact with that kind of stuff. Look at Pixar films for example or other kids films. The writers always tend to have a way to put some humerous sexual or mature innuendos in for the adults who got dragged to that stuff because of their kids. With Bay, it's in your face not giving a damn about the age group going to see this film.

To stay on topic though, I bought TS on Blu-Ray and have only seen it the one time in the theatre. When I watch it again, I don't expect to like it any more but I don't think I'll hate it either. The movie was somewhat entertaining but still had a "meh" feel to it.

 

[I SEE SPIDEY]

Actually, Transformers 2 was pretty good. The first act was HORRIBLE due to those lame jokes, but everything after the scene with the Deception chick got A LOT better as it went along. Plus, that forrest battle scene was AWESOME!

G.I. JOE, ON THE OTHER HAND, now THAT was a piece of ****! *shudder*

If by "pretty good" you mean completely unwatchable s**t then yes, I agree Transformers 2 was "pretty good."

And I thought that GI JOE was a bad movie but it was nowhere near as bad as Transfomers. Atleast it had a great villian performance by JGL and atleast it had a cool ninja fight and a ninja flying around on a jetpack

 

[MOVIELORD101]

If by "pretty good" you mean completely unwatchable s**t then yes, I agree Transformers 2 was "pretty good."

And I thought that GI JOE was a bad movie but it was nowhere near as bad as Transfomers. Atleast it had a great villian performance by JGL and atleast it had a cool ninja fight and a ninja flying around on a jetpack

I disagree. Transformers 2 had it's redeeming moments like the forest scene. G.I. Joe, to me, had NONE AT ALL.

 

[BestGirl]

Solidus, I like your idea that Sarah and John didn't prevent JD in T2. I'm tempted to rewatch the Cameron movies to see if your theory holds up.

Actually, Transformers 2 was pretty good. The first act was HORRIBLE due to those lame jokes, but everything after the scene with the Deception chick got A LOT better as it went along. Plus, that forest battle scene was AWESOME!

G.I. JOE, ON THE OTHER HAND, now THAT was a piece of ****! *shudder*

I thought GI Joe was pretty entertaining, except for the ending. I'm not sure how well it'd hold up on a second viewing, though.

I haven't seen TF2 and don't ever plan to. It sounds like the kind of movie I would loathe and I didn't even like TF1.

 

[I SEE SPIDEY]

I disagree. Transformers 2 had it's redeeming moments like the forest scene. G.I. Joe, to me, had NONE AT ALL.

That was the only redeeming moment in the film, it's why I gave the movie an 0.5 out of 10 instead of a zero.

I'm not going to stand up for GI JOE too much because it doesn't deserve it but I certainly didn't hate it as much as I hated Transformers 2.

 

[MOVIELORD101]

That was the only redeeming moment in the film, it's why I gave the movie an 0.5 out of 10 instead of a zero.

I'm not going to stand up for GI JOE too much because it doesn't deserve it but I certainly didn't hate it as much as I hated Transformers 2.

Opposite here. So, fine, we'll just agree to disagree. I'm not looking for any trouble, man. No hard feelings?

 

[I SEE SPIDEY]

Opposite here. So, fine, we'll just agree to disagree. I'm not looking for any trouble, man. No hard feelings?

No hard feelings what-so-ever.

 

[MOVIELORD101]

No hard feeling what-so-ever.

Thanks!t:

Btw, when I saw this in the theater, I cheered when Arnold's showed up onscreen with that awesome cameo!

 

[I SEE SPIDEY]

Thanks!t:

Btw, when I saw this in the theater, I cheered when Arnold's showed up onscreen with that awesome cameo!

That cameo wasn't needed but it was one of my favorite parts.

 

[MOVIELORD101]

That cameo wasn't needed but it was one of my favorite parts.

Agreed, but it was still cool seeing Arnold in some form.

Just be glad he didn't shout "PUT THAT COOKIE DOWN NOW!" when he showed up on screen!

 

[I SEE SPIDEY]

Agreed, but it was still cool seeing Arnold in some form.

Just be glad he didn't shout "PUT THAT COOKIE DOWN NOW!" when he showed up on screen!

I also liked the call back to the first Terminator movie when we see a shot of the Terminator's foot as he is going up the stairs.

 

[MOVIELORD101]

I also liked the call back to the first Terminator movie when we see a shot of the Terminator's foot as he is going up the stairs.

Yeah, that was cool!

 

[I SEE SPIDEY]

I'm a huge Terminator nerd so I caught and paid attention to just about every reference.

I also noticed the breaking out the window like the T-1000 did in T2.