Thank You Edge - The Wrestling Thread

[chapin]

the action entertainment soap opera thread

that's the perfect title thread

 

[Lobo]

the action entertainment soap opera thread

Oh please please go with this!

 

[Nemi]

the action entertainment soap opera thread

For extra win we can refer to all the wrestlers by name and call them entertainers. That way when confused posters come in to see what this is about it takes them a bit to figure it out.

yea, Nicky from the Spirit Squad lol

Those were innocent times. I remember when DX pulled a Garfield and stuck them all in a box and mailed them somewhere.

 

[Kane52630]

Remember when Hiroshima and Pearl Harbor bombed the Germans...

[YT]Z87sTjWgX5c[/YT]

 

[Metallo]

it would be great creatively, but horrid for the bottom line....hell, they wouldn't even be able to use him for all the appearances he does if he started punting babies and pushing wheelchairs down ramps

Exactly. Even creatively speaking Cena's not far gone enough yet to turn heel. He may get booed but he still gets CHEERED as by far the most popular guy on the roster. He's still incredibly popular and the kids who are his fans are a much more long term investment.

If he turned heel there is absolutely nobody that could step up immediately and fill the void that Cena would leave.

When Austin turned you had Rock. When Hogan turned you had Sting or even Flair. All the other faces in WWE either aren't popular enough, aren't good enough, or have the talent but haven't been groomed well enough to fill Cenas role. It can be done but it would take time. Time were WWE would probably lose money. Like I said even though Cena gets a lot of boos he also gets a LOT of cheers too. It snot like the whole audience is tired of him the way Hogans act just wasn't working anymore.

that's the way it's always been....there are exceptions to the rule (Austin being the notable exception) but the WWE (namely Vince) is a control freak and the business model has proven sturdy...he's outlasted the competition doing things his way

Vince has nobody around to give another viewpoint or at least nobody who is willing to. He lives in a creative bubble.

He pushed Austin because he had to despite that fact that Austins character wasn't Vince's cup o tea. Right now Vince doesn't HAVE to do anything. They are coasting but still successful.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Okay, im not a Zack Ryder fan by any means (and I dont imagine that there are many Ryder fans outside of interwebz fans) but I never understood the mentality that if someone is over, they get buried for doing it on their own. If a guy like Ryder is over, who cares how it happened? Let him be over, it will bring in viewers and money.

It makes Austins entire speech on tough enough about "seizing the moment" totally pointless, if you're not allowed to seize your moment in todays wwe.

 

[Heretic]

WWE hates when "unapproved" guys get over with the crowd. I recall a brief period where Carlito was getting the biggest pops of the night...so WWE made sure to absolutely crush him every time he was on screen. Sure, if someone is red hot for no reason for years...eventually WWE will throw the fans a bone (Jeff Hardy, Chris Benoit) but in general, WWE's view is that they will dictate to the fans who to cheer, not the other way around.

 

[Metallo]

WWE can't have Zack Ryder getting over because in their eyes he has a particular role to play: the goofy loser character. To hell with what the audience thinks (thats how WWE sees it).

Its not about the stars/characters getting over as individuals its about the brand as a whole getting over. But WWE doesn't get that the brand can't get over to its maximum potential unless the fans have individuals they can invest in. Everything's so predictable now that even if you like somebody you know they are going nowhere.

Creative is almost totally cut off from what the audience wants because Vince refuses to consider what the audience wants. The writers cater to him. If they don't think someone has what it takes then that person must not. Doesn't matter what the fans think.

And WWE is trying to have certain things both ways. They don't want anyone to have the stigma of "jobber" attached but thats exactly what a lot of the undercard and midcard talent is to them right now. WWE just doesn't want us to think that.

The brand is the draw with a smaller handful of stars that stand out. Cena, Orton, Taker, HHH, etc. Years ago everybody stood out as a character even if they lost all the time. It was the characters as individuals that helped draw. Thats why the midcard mattered back then. Now that everybody in the midcard doesn't matter the midcard itself as a whole doesn't matter.

With everyone interchangeable Vince has all the power. If all those midcard talents don't like it they can leave and WWE won't miss a beat. Someone else chomping at the bit will get called up to fill that spot. Thats exactly what happened wth MVP when he left. The handful of top stars he does have have nowhere else to go, don't want to go, or owe everything to Vince.

Cena was more "manufactured" by Vince than any other top star. He's loyal and obedient. He's not going to speak out. And when it does come time for Cena to go Vince in his supreme arrogance thinks he can just manufacture another guy like Cena.

 

[SpideyVille]

the action entertainment soap opera thread

 

[Heretic]

As far as I'm concerned, aside from Cena and Orton, the entire Raw roster are jobbers.

 

[chapin]

As far as I'm concerned, aside from Cena and Orton, the entire Raw roster are jobbers.

Santino as a jobber? Dammit!

 

[spidey-dude]

Okay, im not a Zack Ryder fan by any means (and I dont imagine that there are many Ryder fans outside of interwebz fans) but I never understood the mentality that if someone is over, they get buried for doing it on their own. If a guy like Ryder is over, who cares how it happened? Let him be over, it will bring in viewers and money.

It makes Austins entire speech on tough enough about "seizing the moment" totally pointless, if you're not allowed to seize your moment in todays wwe.

I agree - Ryder has gone out there and utilised the internet to show his promo/personality side and has gotten over with a good amount of fans

he took initiative and is seemingly being punished for it




as for cena going heel - who is to say that the fans would not like him - hell I woulda booed if I was live but I LOVED the rock and stone cole when they were heel (in fact I think I bought my first rock shirt when he was in the corporation)

 

[Hellion]

Remember when Hiroshima and Pearl Harbor bombed the Germans...

[YT]Z87sTjWgX5c[/YT]

 

[The Sage]

Okay, im not a Zack Ryder fan by any means (and I dont imagine that there are many Ryder fans outside of interwebz fans) but I never understood the mentality that if someone is over, they get buried for doing it on their own. If a guy like Ryder is over, who cares how it happened? Let him be over, it will bring in viewers and money.

It makes Austins entire speech on tough enough about "seizing the moment" totally pointless, if you're not allowed to seize your moment in todays wwe.

You're right. It's like Austin's preaching the old mentality, the one that made him a star while Vince is pushing his new one.

WWE can't have Zack Ryder getting over because in their eyes he has a particular role to play: the goofy loser character. To hell with what the audience thinks (thats how WWE sees it).

Its not about the stars/characters getting over as individuals its about the brand as a whole getting over. But WWE doesn't get that the brand can't get over to its maximum potential unless the fans have individuals they can invest in. Everything's so predictable now that even if you like somebody you know they are going nowhere.

Creative is almost totally cut off from what the audience wants because Vince refuses to consider what the audience wants. The writers cater to him. If they don't think someone has what it takes then that person must not. Doesn't matter what the fans think.

And WWE is trying to have certain things both ways. They don't want anyone to have the stigma of "jobber" attached but thats exactly what a lot of the undercard and midcard talent is to them right now. WWE just doesn't want us to think that.

The brand is the draw with a smaller handful of stars that stand out. Cena, Orton, Taker, HHH, etc. Years ago everybody stood out as a character even if they lost all the time. It was the characters as individuals that helped draw. Thats why the midcard mattered back then. Now that everybody in the midcard doesn't matter the midcard itself as a whole doesn't matter.

With everyone interchangeable Vince has all the power. If all those midcard talents don't like it they can leave and WWE won't miss a beat. Someone else chomping at the bit will get called up to fill that spot. Thats exactly what happened wth MVP when he left. The handful of top stars he does have have nowhere else to go, don't want to go, or owe everything to Vince.

Cena was more "manufactured" by Vince than any other top star. He's loyal and obedient. He's not going to speak out. And when it does come time for Cena to go Vince in his supreme arrogance thinks he can just manufacture another guy like Cena.

Has there really been a successful "manufactured" star outside of Cena? I'm trying to think of who would be good examples. Would anyone consider Hogan, Warrior, and Undertaker manufactured?

 

[chamber-music]

As far as I'm concerned, aside from Cena and Orton, the entire Raw roster are jobbers.

I would exclude Raws top two heels CM Punk and The Miz but yes everyone else is pretty much a jobber who gets feed to other top wrestlers thus creating a constant wheel of lack of credibility.

 

[Metallo]

Has there really been a successful "manufactured" star outside of Cena? I'm trying to think of who would be good examples. Would anyone consider Hogan, Warrior, and Undertaker manufactured?

Not really. Thats why I said "more" manufactured. Cena isn't just a robot. A lot of Cenas success can also be attributed to his own will to succeed and work hard. But he doesn't really stand up and disagree like the other past top stars. Cena just had the misfortune of being one of the first new top stars to come along when WWE was the only game in town.

Vince had a hand in making Hogan, Warrior, and Undertaker stars but they had much more freedom with their work than Cena does and they all came up in a different time. they had a broader influence on their learning and their work. I'd say they were less manufactured than Cena was.

Hogan was given that push with the WWF machine behind him but Hogan was already well on his way to becoming the Hogan we know before he even came back to the WWF in late 1983. Hogan began to form a lot of what he would eventually become in Vince Sr's WWWF and Verne Gagne's AWA. Rocky III also went a long way to making him more well known. He didn't have to rely JUST on Vince to get his name out there on a national level.

Warrior began to form his character in World Class...and he was never under Vince's thumb the way Cena is. He had his own mind on a lot of things.

Taker's character was Vince's idea but it took a very particular man to breath life into it. WWF gave Taker a lot of crap angles to work but his sheer talent, which was cultivated for 6 years before he ever came to WWF, is what made it work. His talent and his presence were not something Vince could give him.

Cena is popular but he doesn't have the extra something that took him to those same heights that Rock, Hogan, and Austin hit where their popularity transcended the WWF and he doesn't have the depth of experience that a Bret Hart or Shawn Michaels had. His way of doing things is the full on WWE way and WWE style. All those other guys had other experiences to learn from.

While Cena started on the independents the bulk of his experience came from WWE, OVW, and the rest of WWE's farm system. A lot of what he is was developed in WWE's system not outside of it. Cena was not only chosen for his spot but molded into what Vince wanted WHILE he was the top guy. The clay was still malleable so to speak. It wasn't the case of this inevitable surge the way it was felt with Austin or even Hogan. They've all been groomed in a way but their star power couldn't really be denied. Even when Cena splits some of the fanbase Vince still shoves him down our throats regardless of our overall feelings.

Thats why I say he is more manufactured than any other top WWE star. Most importantly Cena is one of the first long term top WWE stars to grow up being "conditioned" by watching Vince Jr's WWF. Even the Rock, just by the way he grew up, got a chance to experience more different types of wrestling. Since he's a little older than Cena he wasn't as solely immersed in the WWF Rock n Wrestling boom.

 

[spidey-dude]

just seen the miz on blue peter over here - they put him across well! i think kids might like him over here after this!

 

[spidey-dude]

ok after watching it I wish I had gone to his signing in london yesterday - he looks like a top guy

 

[Heretic]

I would exclude Raws top two heels CM Punk and The Miz but yes everyone else is pretty much a jobber who gets feed to other top wrestlers thus creating a constant wheel of lack of credibility.

I don't remember the last time Cm Punk won...

And WWE's new jobber system is to have them win occasionally...but not actually look credible doing it...The Miz is world champ, but hasn't actually come away from a single title defense looking anything but weak. Shaemus is US champ...but he lost every week for months before winning it. Daniel Bryan was US champ before him, yet few ever really considered him more than a jobber while he held the title. The midcard guys trade victories back and forth, none of them being truly elevated in the process.

 

[Nemi]

Not really. Thats why I said "more" manufactured. Cena isn't just a robot. A lot of Cenas success can also be attributed to his own will to succeed and work hard. But he doesn't really stand up and disagree like the other past top stars. Cena just had the misfortune of being one of the first new top stars to come along when WWE was the only game in town.

Vince had a hand in making Hogan, Warrior, and Undertaker stars but they had much more freedom with their work than Cena does and they all came up in a different time. they had a broader influence on their learning and their work. I'd say they were less manufactured than Cena was.

Hogan was given that push with the WWF machine behind him but Hogan was already well on his way to becoming the Hogan we know before he even came back to the WWF in late 1983. Hogan began to form a lot of what he would eventually become in Vince Sr's WWWF and Verne Gagne's AWA. Rocky III also went a long way to making him more well known. He didn't have to rely JUST on Vince to get his name out there on a national level.

Warrior began to form his character in World Class...and he was never under Vince's thumb the way Cena is. He had his own mind on a lot of things.

Taker's character was Vince's idea but it took a very particular man to breath life into it. WWF gave Taker a lot of crap angles to work but his sheer talent, which was cultivated for 6 years before he ever came to WWF, is what made it work. His talent and his presence were not something Vince could give him.

Cena is popular but he doesn't have the extra something that took him to those same heights that Rock, Hogan, and Austin hit where their popularity transcended the WWF and he doesn't have the depth of experience that a Bret Hart or Shawn Michaels had. His way of doing things is the full on WWE way and WWE style. All those other guys had other experiences to learn from.

While Cena started on the independents the bulk of his experience came from WWE, OVW, and the rest of WWE's farm system. A lot of what he is was developed in WWE's system not outside of it. Cena was not only chosen for his spot but molded into what Vince wanted WHILE he was the top guy. The clay was still malleable so to speak. It wasn't the case of this inevitable surge the way it was felt with Austin or even Hogan. They've all been groomed in a way but their star power couldn't really be denied. Even when Cena splits some of the fanbase Vince still shoves him down our throats regardless of our overall feelings.

Thats why I say he is more manufactured than any other top WWE star. Most importantly Cena is one of the first long term top WWE stars to grow up being "conditioned" by watching Vince Jr's WWF. Even the Rock, just by the way he grew up, got a chance to experience more different types of wrestling. Since he's a little older than Cena he wasn't as solely immersed in the WWF Rock n Wrestling boom.

I think that in his own way Cena is lightning in a bottle. He's someone incredibly manufactured but it works. He was chosen for his spot and molded and it worked. I don't think that's something they'll be able to repeat for a very long time if ever again. They manufacture stars all the time and it mostly crashes and burns.

 

[Kaleb]

 

[LOBO3315a]

I think that in his own way Cena is lightning in a bottle. He's someone incredibly manufactured but it works. He was chosen for his spot and molded and it worked. I don't think that's something they'll be able to repeat for a very long time if ever again. They manufacture stars all the time and it mostly crashes and burns.

I think his work ethic has a lot to do with that as well. Cena never 'coasts' like a lot of other guys that are put through the same process. He genuinely gives 110% at all times. Whether the storyline is crap or not, he throws himself into it.

 

[Dr. Evil]

Vince McMahon in a lot of ways is like Libyan leader Moammar Khadafi, except without the mass revolt.

 

[Dr. Evil]

Interesting.....the WWE has an event on Friday in Doha, Qatar. I don't think they've ever been there.

 

[BlackLantern]

Vince McMahon in a lot of ways is like Libyan leader Moammar Khadafi, except without the mass revolt.

the WWE is like a really nice stretch hummer, with a hot tub and bar but if you wanna ride in it...you have to play by Vinces rules

TNA is like a Country Squire Station Wagon, sure it works, but you don't want to be seen in it