'That was our kiss!!!!' Query?

[WalterKovacs]

she was making to big of a deal of it

 

[DieSmiling]

Now there's a thing that annoys me about this board. You have to say "I think" that would be stupid, or "IMO" that would be stupid. You can't just say that would be stupid. Why must the person actually state that it's only his opinion? I mean, of COURSE it's not a fact. Whether something is stupid or not cannot be deemed as an objective fact. So why can't people just take it as what it is, an opinion, and not keep saying "that's your opinion". YES, it IS. Now, of course, if somebody starts saying things like "well most people think", when they don't, or you have no evidence that they do, that's generalising your opinion onto other people. But that's the exception. Otherwise, if someone just says something like "that's stupid", or "that would be totally unrealistic", they're just stating THEIR OPINION.

Yeah, but their opinion is completely meaningless unless they back it up.

"That would be stupid" has no validity or substance to it. "I think that would be a stupid choice because A, B, C, etc..." does.

 

[Dragon]

We do connect with him. We see he loves MJ. That is the connection we are supposed to make. SM3 does not steer you toward wanting him to go with Gwen (or at least, that is not what Raimi was intending to do).

Doesn't steer YOU toward wanting him to be with Gwen. It certainly steered ME toward it. Peter IMO looks like a total idiot for fawning over MJ.

And honestly, Peter in the movies is portrayed as extremely childish in terms of relationships. Far different from the comics. Any adult knows it's very rare that you're going to maintain feelings for someone that you had as a child. Feelings of love developed then are based on immature notions. Peter isn't who he was when he was in the first grade and neither is MJ. In the comics, Peter relaized that his first love (Betty) didn't have to be his only love. and his High School crush (Liz Allen) didn't reflect real enduring feelings either.
In these movies Peter needs to reflect more of an adult maturity of dealing with relationships. And that means dumping the very self-centered and immature Ms. Watson.

 

[Dr. Fate]

Yeah, but their opinion is completely meaningless unless they back it up.

"That would be stupid" has no validity or substance to it. "I think that would be a stupid choice because A, B, C, etc..." does.

How about the original Gwen Stacy is DEAD and all there is now is the occasional appearance by a clone of Gwen, how's that for a reason?

I think destroying Peter's marriage to Mary-Jane just so writers can stick him with a clone of Gwen Stacy is a bad idea.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Doesn't steer YOU toward wanting him to be with Gwen. It certainly steered ME toward it. Peter IMO looks like a total idiot for fawning over MJ.

And honestly, Peter in the movies is portrayed as extremely childish in terms of relationships. Far different from the comics. Any adult knows it's very rare that you're going to maintain feelings for someone that you had as a child. Feelings of love developed then are based on immature notions. Peter isn't who he was when he was in the first grade and neither is MJ. In the comics, Peter relaized that his first love (Betty) didn't have to be his only love. and his High School crush (Liz Allen) didn't reflect real enduring feelings either.
In these movies Peter needs to reflect more of an adult maturity of dealing with relationships. And that means dumping the very self-centered and immature Ms. Watson.

Any movie is continuing from these movies, so this Parker is the Parker you are stuck with. Not the comic one (no matter how much you want him to be).

The ending of SM3 shows that despite the bad times, they stay together. Replacing her in SM4 with Gwen is just bad storytelling and bad continuation. It goes against the entire point of the previous movie, and the ending. Not the way to handle a franchise.

 

[Dragon]

Any movie is continuing from these movies, so this Parker is the Parker you are stuck with. Not the comic one (no matter how much you want him to be).

The ending of SM3 shows that despite the bad times, they stay together. Replacing her in SM4 with Gwen is just bad storytelling and bad continuation. It goes against the entire point of the previous movie, and the ending. Not the way to handle a franchise.

Not necessarily. There's a thing called CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT. People grow and change. They learn. They mature. A grown-up Peter would see that the relatinship he has with MJ isn't working. She wasn't even apologetic about all the crap she did to Peter.

 

[Dragon]

How about the original Gwen Stacy is DEAD and all there is now is the occasional appearance by a clone of Gwen, how's that for a reason?

I think destroying Peter's marriage to Mary-Jane just so writers can stick him with a clone of Gwen Stacy is a bad idea.

You really haven't thought this through then.

If they bring Gwen back, it'll be the original, not a clone. And- they wouldn't be breaking up the marriage for that alone. It's just become stale and boring.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Not necessarily. There's a thing called CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT. People grow and change. They learn. They mature. A grown-up Peter would see that the relatinship he has with MJ isn't working. She wasn't even apologetic about all the crap she did to Peter.

The ending was a bit of a silent apology, so I disagree.

Also, characters grow. You are right. Then why do you think it impossible for MJ to grow? You act like she will continue to be a b****, but she obviously grew by the end of SM3.

Also, a grown-up Peter realizes that problems need to be worked out, and if you love someone, you have to try to make it work.

There is no point in dumping her now, and I think it would be stupid to do so, and be more of a character regression than a growth in character.

 

[Dr. Fate]

You really haven't thought this through then.

If they bring Gwen back, it'll be the original, not a clone. And- they wouldn't be breaking up the marriage for that alone. It's just become stale and boring.

Aren't there ENOUGH pointless resurrections in comic books? Some characters have to stay DEAD.

 

[Dragon]

The ending was a bit of a silent apology, so I disagree.

No it wasn't. Peter had to go to her. She was just re-instating him as her fan club.

Also, characters grow. You are right. Then why do you think it impossible for MJ to grow? You act like she will continue to be a b****, but she obviously grew by the end of SM3.

What growth did she show? Again, Peter had to go to her. No apollogy from her. MJ has yet to acknowledge any of the selfish things she's done in any of the films as being wrong.

Also, a grown-up Peter realizes that problems need to be worked out, and if you love someone, you have to try to make it work.

The problem is- that Peter WAS trying to work them out. MJ wasn't returning his calls.

There is no point in dumping her now, and I think it would be stupid to do so, and be more of a character regression than a growth in character.

You have nothing to base that on. It would be extremely easy to write MJ out of this series and portray it as Peter growing as an individual. Just as in the comics he outgrew his relationship with Betty, he can certainly outgrow this one. In fact, if anything staying with MJ is regression.

 

[Dragon]

Aren't there ENOUGH pointless resurrections in comic books? Some characters have to stay DEAD.

Who says its pointless? You won't know that until you read the stories. Granted, Marvel usually drops the ball with these things, but if a guy like Jeph Loeb handles the reigns, it could work.

Gwen's death has been rnedered meaningless with the resurrection of Norman Osborn. so, they might as well get some actual story-telling mileage out of her.

 

[Karea07]

this topic is dumb, peter and mj are obviously going to be with eachother for the rest of these films (if they continue from spidey 3) it would be so stupid and such a waste of three god damn movies if they break up, after everything that has happened with their relationship. hopefully they dont break up and get back together yet again in 4.

 

[Mr Jide]

Doesn't steer YOU toward wanting him to be with Gwen. It certainly steered ME toward it. Peter IMO looks like a total idiot for fawning over MJ.

And honestly, Peter in the movies is portrayed as extremely childish in terms of relationships. Far different from the comics. Any adult knows it's very rare that you're going to maintain feelings for someone that you had as a child. Feelings of love developed then are based on immature notions. Peter isn't who he was when he was in the first grade and neither is MJ. In the comics, Peter relaized that his first love (Betty) didn't have to be his only love. and his High School crush (Liz Allen) didn't reflect real enduring feelings either.
In these movies Peter needs to reflect more of an adult maturity of dealing with relationships. And that means dumping the very self-centered and immature Ms. Watson.

This is what I'm talking about. Thank you dragon! You seem to be the only person here who actually knows the diversification of Peter's character from the comics that has a more 3d substance than that of TMag's portrayal. I've been saying this since sm1. Peter mopng about and being in love with MJ only for his entire life just isn't realistic or the least bit remotely belieavable. In the comics, Peter really was mure human. He had feeling for Betty and Liz at the same time even. This sort of characterization/behaviour is sorely lacking from the movies and just makes things dull. That's one of the reasosn why I liked sm3 so much because it was different from the monotony of sm1 and 2. Gwen was thrown into the mix to spice things up a little and throughout the movie, I too was gagging for Pete to kick MJ to the curb indfinately and get with Gwen.

I really wish to God, we could go back to 2002 and redo this entire franchise.

 

[Mr Jide]

Any movie is continuing from these movies, so this Parker is the Parker you are stuck with. Not the comic one (no matter how much you want him to be).

The ending of SM3 shows that despite the bad times, they stay together. Replacing her in SM4 with Gwen is just bad storytelling and bad continuation. It goes against the entire point of the previous movie, and the ending. Not the way to handle a franchise.

If you realy believe this then, the inclusion of Gwen in sm3 was a complete waste of time and bad story telling by default. Betty could have easily been used to sub Gwen instead of introducing a major character like GS and have her reduced to nothing but a supporting role who has nothing to offer in terms of romance in future instalments. By that logic, the Gwen character and everything about her is a complete waste of a resource. These movies are so screwed up that, I'm hoping to God that Gwen ends up fullfilling her intended destiny before being killed in the comics and its MJ that cops it.

 

[Spider-Fan]

If you realy believe this then, the inclusion of Gwen in sm3 was a complete waste of time and bad story telling by default. Betty could have easily been used to sub Gwen instead of introducing a major character like GS and have her reduced to nothing but a supporting role who has nothing to offer in terms of romance in future instalments. By that logic, the Gwen character and everything about her is a complete waste of a resource. These movies are so screwed up that, I'm hoping to God that Gwen ends up fullfilling her intended destiny before being killed in the comics and its MJ that cops it.

Gwen was just thrown in. She was put in place of a made up character they were going with. This is made clear in the movie, and subsequent interviews with the producers and Raimi.

It was a nod for us, nothing to make us say "Oh s***, MJ and Peter will break up, and she will hook up with him and die." That just isn't going to happen. Heck, I could see her not being in any more movies. She was not a major character in SM3, nor was she intended to be of any meaning to the future.

 

[Spider-Fan]

No it wasn't. Peter had to go to her. She was just re-instating him as her fan club.



What growth did she show? Again, Peter had to go to her. No apollogy from her. MJ has yet to acknowledge any of the selfish things she's done in any of the films as being wrong.



The problem is- that Peter WAS trying to work them out. MJ wasn't returning his calls.



You have nothing to base that on. It would be extremely easy to write MJ out of this series and portray it as Peter growing as an individual. Just as in the comics he outgrew his relationship with Betty, he can certainly outgrow this one. In fact, if anything staying with MJ is regression.

Dragon, I am going to leave you here. I disagree with you heavily on MJ having no character growth, and you just seem to want a swingin Peter instead of seeing them stay together (which Raimi obviously has set up in SM3...if you think the end was just Peter going back to her and being MJ's man-slave, you weren't paying attention at all).

It is pointless to continue this discussion. Do not take this as I have no defense, because I could continue this discussion, I am just choosing not to.

 

[Mr Jide]

Gwen was just thrown in. She was put in place of a made up character they were going with. This is made clear in the movie, and subsequent interviews with the producers and Raimi.

It was a nod for us, nothing to make us say "Oh s***, MJ and Peter will break up, and she will hook up with him and die." That just isn't going to happen. Heck, I could see her not being in any more movies. She was not a major character in SM3, nor was she intended to be of any meaning to the future.

Well, I've read that Gwen and her father will return but going by what you've said, you've just proved my overall point in that, the inclusion of Gwen's character was simply bad writing by default simply because, If Raimi and the producers were going to go with an original character for the movie, what would be the point? Like I mentioned earlier, we already have Betty, comon sense should tell them that, she's been established briefly already in 2 movies, for the 3rd, lets giver her something more, seeing as she was Parker's first love in the comics But, as fate would have it, Gwen, who is one of the most iconic characters in comicdom gets thrown in for the hell of it and is now a wasted character. God, these movies are a series of bad writing that result in overall mediocrity. I hope to God we get a new cast/director and more importantly a new/more accurate vision.

 

[Dragon]

Dragon, I am going to leave you here. I disagree with you heavily on MJ having no character growth, and you just seem to want a swingin Peter instead of seeing them stay together (which Raimi obviously has set up in SM3...if you think the end was just Peter going back to her and being MJ's man-slave, you weren't paying attention at all).

It is pointless to continue this discussion. Do not take this as I have no defense, because I could continue this discussion, I am just choosing not to.

First off, I don't want a "swingin" Peter. I want Peter, MJ and everyone else involved to be three dimensional characters. If Peter and MJ are supposed to be together, there needs to be characterization to reflect it.

And since I wasn't paying attention, please enlighten me as to what I missed.
Also, please elaborate on MJ's development as a character.

 

[The Joker]

Also, please elaborate on MJ's development as a character.

Yes, I wouldn't mind hearing that, either. As far as I can see, MJ was just as selfish as ever in SM-3. Worse than in the previous two movies.

 

[Spider-Fan]

It is pointless to continue this discussion. Do not take this as I have no defense, because I could continue this discussion, I am just choosing not to.

Apparantly people missed this little tidbit here.

As far as I am concerned, I am done with this discussion. It is pointless to continue, and I think people have taken this subject far too far.

You may twist this to being a cop out all you want, but fact is I was done with this conversation far before this post.

 

[November Rain]

has dragon ever backed down from a discussion before?

i'm curious....

same goes for ock

I wonder what would happen if they argued together

 

[Karea07]

I wonder what would happen if they argued together

lol

 

[Dr. Fate]

I wonder what would happen if they argued together

I don't think the forum could survive the devastation.

 

[UltimateJustin]

Just because Betty is shown as a minor character in the other movies means she automatically has to be the female they go with, just becuase she was in them? Gwen isnt major in SM3, but she does have a few key scenes and it works fine establishing someone new. She can give him the key to the city, leading to the kiss, that Betty couldn't really have done. Gwen doesnt have to be a big deal just because she was in the comics twenty years ago. The comics have sucked since the 70's, these movies are here and good now. Good enough.

 

[The Caped Knight]

Do you think MJ has any right to be really angry at pete for kissing Gwen with the inverted kiss (in spidey 3)

Yes it was their first kiss (To MJ it was very Special & meaninful )

Peter should've never have kissed Gwen that way, even if it was ment as a joke (playing for the crowd) A kiss on the ceek would've been fine .

MJ had a damn good reason to be pissed off at Peter .