The Dark Knight The “Dark Knight” Debate – Did Batman Need To Fall?

[BatmanFanatic]

Question: Did Batman really need to take the fall for everyone Dent killed? Was it simply a matter of needing to have it happen for thematic purposes? Couldn’t Gordon blame one of the Jokers dead goons or a mobster or some other person besides Gorham’s hero?

Wondering what you all think about this, I am conflicted. I do *love* the idea of Batman having everyone on his tail and being a real outlaw, but I don’t think the logic is there for how it happened in this version of that story.

 

[Hole Shot]

yes, because he needed to learn how to pick himself up.

 

[Doright]

"Couldn’t Gordon blame one of the Jokers dead goons or a mobster or some other person besides Gorham’s hero?"

No... Not without tarnishing Gordon reputation and integrity as a good cop. Manufacturing or planting evidence against a suspect living or dead is something good cops do not do... With Batman taking the "blame" basically it was giving Gordon permission. Basically Batman "confessed" to the crimes and thus that lets Gordon integrity off the hook.

 

[Asteroid-Man]

Question: Did Batman really need to take the fall for everyone Dent killed? Was it simply a matter of needing to have it happen for thematic purposes? Couldn’t Gordon blame one of the Jokers dead goons or a mobster or some other person besides Gorham’s hero?

Wondering what you all think about this, I am conflicted. I do *love* the idea of Batman having everyone on his tail and being a real outlaw, but I don’t think the logic is there for how it happened in this version of that story.

I think in the end of the third one, Batman will be the one Gotham needs and everyone will come to accept him, police and citizens alike. That would be a nice way to end the franchise. He won't be down for long.

"Why do we fall Bruce?"

 

[[A]]

How can they possibly fix that..? It's not that I don't think that they (the writers) can do it; I just can't think of a possible solution. Anyway, just got back from my 2nd TDK showing

 

[Yr Blues]

He didn't fall. He sacrificed his reputation to save Gotham's hope. He became what Gotham needed.

 

[BatmanFanatic]

yes, because he needed to learn how to pick himself up.

Haha - nice one =)

"Couldn’t Gordon blame one of the Jokers dead goons or a mobster or some other person besides Gorham’s hero?"

No... Not without tarnishing Gordon reputation and integrity as a good cop. Manufacturing or planting evidence against a suspect living or dead is something good cops do not do... With Batman taking the "blame" basically it was giving Gordon permission. Basically Batman "confessed" to the crimes and thus that lets Gordon integrity off the hook.

I'm sorry, that argument doesn't work at all because he would have had to DESTROY EVIDENCE in order to erase Dent's connection to the crimes. So integrity is already out the window right there, and as for reputation - it doesn't concern your reputation if no one else knows about it.

It occurs to me that logically NO ONE needed to be blamed, it could have been "unsolved murders." There was no reason for Batman to claim responsibility. With everything that had been happening in Gotham because of the Joker and the mob, no one would be thinking twice about a few more dead people.

 

[SPIDERMAN117]

Because he's the hero that Gotham deserves, but not the one it needs right now... and so we'll hunt him... because he can take it... because he's not a hero... he's a silent guardian, a watchful protector... a DARK KNIGHT....

This basically sums up why he has to take the fall. Because he can take it.

 

[BatmanFanatic]

I think in the end of the third one, Batman will be the one Gotham needs and everyone will come to accept him, police and citizens alike. That would be a nice way to end the franchise. He won't be down for long.

"Why do we fall Bruce?"

The problem is, there is no logical way out of the situation without Batman / Gordon ADMITTING that they lied to the public in order to cover for Dent.

That's not exactly a shining example to set. And the films closing line of "Sometimes the truth isn't good enough..." I mean, what kind of a message / reason is that? That's what they want people to walk away with - basically, LIE because it's convenient? Lie if there is a benefit?

 

[Marvolo]

As Alfred reminded Bruce "we fall so that we can learn to pick ourselves up." Batman needed to go through this so that he would know how to handle himself when things get bad in the future. Its a part of Batman's maturity.

 

[BatmanFanatic]

He didn't fall. He sacrificed his reputation to save Gotham's hope. He became what Gotham needed.

He took away one hope in order to save another hope - zero sum either way. Either way the citizens are going to be incredibly disillusioned ... you don't think they'll be upset that Batman turned out to be a murdering crazy in their eyes?

There is no real reason those five dead people couldn't have been left unsolved murders in a place as bad as Gotham city, and then Dent would STILL be Gothams hope and martyr, and Batman would STILL be a hero. Have the cake and eat it too!

And let's not talk about Gordons integrity as a reason against leaving the murders unsolved - through the entire film he broke every police procedure, lied to others, broke the evidence chain, took the law into his own hands, did a very cruel thing to his family, and still ended up showing his integrity was shot by allowing Batman to follow through with this insane plan to be the fall-guy.

 

[BatmanFanatic]

This basically sums up why he has to take the fall. Because he can take it.

What kind of flippn' argument is that though!? It's just a stupid screenwriter-ish thing to say, it doesn't even make sense! Playing with words is not a justification for anything.

Look... I can take a punch - does that mean you should hit me? "He can take it" is not a reason for anything.

 

[Shonkie]

Yes, Batman needed to fall, because all of Harvey(Two-Face)'s kills were all vigilante style kills. You can't blame that on a crook/criminal, but someone who is a vigilante. The one thing that still bothers me in the grand scheme of things is the female cop who lived who saw Harvey in the flesh, you'd think she'd blab.

 

[thejon93]

Question: Did Batman really need to take the fall for everyone Dent killed? Was it simply a matter of needing to have it happen for thematic purposes? Couldn’t Gordon blame one of the Jokers dead goons or a mobster or some other person besides Gorham’s hero?

Wondering what you all think about this, I am conflicted. I do *love* the idea of Batman having everyone on his tail and being a real outlaw, but I don’t think the logic is there for how it happened in this version of that story.

Oh crap, I thought this was a thread for my biggest complaint of the film: Batman falling from large heights too plenty times. Anyhow, yes, through Batman's eyes, Dent was saving him and was his chance for freedom. In a way, Batman returned the favor for also, don't forget that Dent posed as Batman to help not only save others from dying, but to save Wayne from making a mistake by even thinking of surrendering himself to The Joker's plot. I'm happy that Batman made that decision but, one could argue that although Dent did seem to be the villain, he did technically kill anyone apart from those who weren't responsible for his fiance's death. If you think of it, he wasn't really a villain full-circle. I think of him as The Punisher in a way because he doesn't kill anyone apart from those who were responsible for the horrible thing that happened to him.

 

[DeGenerate10]

He had to do it to keep Dent's work as D.A. from being a waste and to put more fear into the criminals of Gotham.

 

[Yr Blues]

He took away one hope in order to save another hope - zero sum either way. Either way the citizens are going to be incredibly disillusioned ... you don't think they'll be upset that Batman turned out to be a murdering crazy in their eyes?

There is no real reason those five dead people couldn't have been left unsolved murders in a place as bad as Gotham city, and then Dent would STILL be Gothams hope and martyr, and Batman would STILL be a hero. Have the cake and eat it too!

And let's not talk about Gordons integrity as a reason against leaving the murders unsolved - through the entire film he broke every police procedure, lied to others, broke the evidence chain, took the law into his own hands, did a very cruel thing to his family, and still ended up showing his integrity was shot by allowing Batman to follow through with this insane plan to be the fall-guy.

You bring up some good points that I didn't consider, but knowing that it's a contrived work of fiction, I know what they were going for and I like it. There's a theme of White Knight being Dent, and Dark Knight being Batman. It makes for a nice narrative. And it gives a melancholic sadness to Wayne's mission.

 

[Yr Blues]

He had to do it to keep Dent's work as D.A. from being a waste and to put more fear into the criminals of Gotham.

That too.

 

[Bat-Mite]

Yes, Batman needed to fall, because all of Harvey(Two-Face)'s kills were all vigilante style kills. You can't blame that on a crook/criminal, but someone who is a vigilante. The one thing that still bothers me in the grand scheme of things is the female cop who lived who saw Harvey in the flesh, you'd think she'd blab.

It would be quite interesting if she came out in the third one and threw a wrench into Batman and Gordon's plans. But then again, I think she was involved with the kidnapping of Rachel and Harvey, wasn't she? Pretty sure that's why Harvey confronted her. So if she came out with the truth, she might incriminate herself as well. It would be a lot safer for her to keep silent.

 

[BatmanFanatic]

As Alfred reminded Bruce "we fall so that we can learn to pick ourselves up." Batman needed to go through this so that he would know how to handle himself when things get bad in the future. Its a part of Batman's maturity.

You're honestly telling me that in order to learn how to handle himself when "things get bad" Batman should MAKE things bad? On purpose when there is no logical reason for it?

In order for Batman to be "mature" he needs to be hunted by the entire police department and hated by the whole city for five murders he did not commit - and may I add - greatly impede his ability to HELP OTHERS as a side effect of this insane scheme?

None of it needed to occur. No one knows what two face did except for Gordon and Batman and Gordons family. Just leave the murders unsolved and keep your mouth shut, and Dent can still be seen as a hero and martyr!

 

[BatmanFanatic]

Yes, Batman needed to fall, because all of Harvey(Two-Face)'s kills were all vigilante style kills. You can't blame that on a crook/criminal, but someone who is a vigilante. The one thing that still bothers me in the grand scheme of things is the female cop who lived who saw Harvey in the flesh, you'd think she'd blab.

Vigilante style kills? What the heck does that mean? A cop got shot in a bar, a mob boss died when his car flipped over when his driver was shot in the back of the head - does anyone REALLY believe that Batman would be sitting in the back-seat of a towncar with Maroni having a chat? Who else did Dent kill? There is no reason you can't blame all of it on random violence or inner-mob fighting.

Joker and Gordons family also know what really happened.

 

[BatmanFanatic]

Oh crap, I thought this was a thread for my biggest complaint of the film: Batman falling from large heights too plenty times. Anyhow, yes, through Batman's eyes, Dent was saving him and was his chance for freedom. In a way, Batman returned the favor for also, don't forget that Dent posed as Batman to help not only save others from dying, but to save Wayne from making a mistake by even thinking of surrendering himself to The Joker's plot. I'm happy that Batman made that decision but, one could argue that although Dent did seem to be the villain, he did technically kill anyone apart from those who weren't responsible for his fiance's death. If you think of it, he wasn't really a villain full-circle. I think of him as The Punisher in a way because he doesn't kill anyone apart from those who were responsible for the horrible thing that happened to him.

Yes, those are great thematic reasons, but not logical ones. Theme and logic must work together in a successful screenplay.

I like the idea of Batman becoming a complete, hunted outlaw by the end of the film - however the way they justified it was illogical and ruined it for me because it didn't need to happen that way at all. "Because he can take it" has got to be the worst attempt at justification by a writer ever. It's lazy sleight of hand and wordplay (here's hoping no one notices I didn't ACTUALLY give a reason!)

I get the fact that Bruce and Harvey owed each other one so to speak. But Harvey's memory could have been preserved without such a foolish measure on Batmans part.

 

[Marvolo]

You're honestly telling me that in order to learn how to handle himself when "things get bad" Batman should MAKE things bad? On purpose when there is no logical reason for it?

In order for Batman to be "mature" he needs to be hunted by the entire police department and hated by the whole city for five murders he did not commit - and may I add - greatly impede his ability to HELP OTHERS as a side effect of this insane scheme?

None of it needed to occur. No one knows what two face did except for Gordon and Batman and Gordons family. Just leave the murders unsolved and keep your mouth shut, and Dent can still be seen as a hero and martyr!

I was talking from a third person observer view point not from Batman's viewpoint. Remember, Batman didn't write the script. Nolan did, and he has a plan. In Nolan's Batman trilogy Batman had to fall. If he can't help himself back up how is he ever going to help Gotham get back up again?

 

[BatmanFanatic]

He had to do it to keep Dent's work as D.A. from being a waste and to put more fear into the criminals of Gotham.

No he didn't, because leaving those murders unsolved would have protected Dent's work as D.A. just as well.

Just because you want to avoid Harvey being blamed for the murders, doesn't mean you need to have a false confession from Batman. There are lots of other choices! This was only done the way it was in order to tie into the theme...but it was illogical and a lazy explanation. There should have been another (actually believable) reason for Batman to be hunted by the end.

 

[MasterOgami]

It occurs to me that logically NO ONE needed to be blamed, it could have been "unsolved murders." There was no reason for Batman to claim responsibility. With everything that had been happening in Gotham because of the Joker and the mob, no one would be thinking twice about a few more dead people.

Maybe if they were crazy street hobos or something, but we're talking about Salvatore Maroni and a crooked detective, people would want answers. They might not be marching downtown demanding them, but they couldn't just throw "unsolved" out as an answer.

Batman assuming the blame and being wanted for questioning in regards to those deaths diverts attention from Dent and saves his work/reputation. Gordon -reluctantly- agrees.

Speaking of reputations, Dent's was in FAR better shape than Batman's. A good section of Gotham's population -do not like- Batman anyway, and -that's- one reason "he can take it", I'm sorry, does kinda work here, even if you don't like it.

 

[BatmanFanatic]

You bring up some good points that I didn't consider, but knowing that it's a contrived work of fiction, I know what they were going for and I like it. There's a theme of White Knight being Dent, and Dark Knight being Batman. It makes for a nice narrative. And it gives a melancholic sadness to Wayne's mission.

Well I can accept that you're willing to suspend disbelief for the sake of a lovely sounding theme.

I know I'm a lot more picky than most, it's just that with a little bit more thought it could have seemed really believable and unavoidable, rather than a crazy and unnecessary choice Batman made, and that Gordon for some strange reason allowed him to make.