The Amazing Spider-Man v.2 - Part 1

[Spider-ManHero12]

I really hope Spider-Island turns out well - Ive always enjoyed the Jackal and look forward to him returning to Spidey's Rogue Roster.

Agreed! I've always been a fan of Jackal, and I have a feeling this story is really going to turn out well.

 

[spider13]

never read anything with the jackal.

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

^^ You should. First, check out the original Clone Saga from the 70's.

 

[WolfCypher]

http://www.thevenomsite.com/2011/06/asm-664-preview.html

 

[Dread]

http://www.thevenomsite.com/2011/06/asm-664-preview.html

Interesting. I do think Slott has an interesting angle on Brock being an anti-hero now. His intentions are good, but he can't escape his crazed reputation or appearance - even in situations when he happens to be right.

Still...for a 2 part story promoted around the return of Jean DeWolfe, it has a lot to do with Anti-Venom and Mr. Negative.

 

[moraldeficiency]

it's the same take on brock for the past ten years running.

 

[Dread]

it's the same take on brock for the past ten years running.

I haven't paid much attention to Eddie Brock since 2001.

He had returned to being a crazed lunatic at the end of the 90's. He's had his moments of crazy since. He killed a nurse to get to Aunt May during "Back In Black", and that was without his symbiote. Of course, alien antibodies seemingly will never leave his body, and his sanity was likely addled by the aliens for ages - hence why he was apparently acquitted of his crimes as Venom. Which seems to be the sort of decision that should have seen riots - among Venom's victims were cops and prison guards. Even during some of his "lethal protector" exploits, innocent people got whacked. Venom murdered a janitor who happened to be sitting in a corrupt CEO's office chair due to mistaken identity during VENOM: THE MADNESS, for instance.

Of course, this is the same Marvel populace who convicted White Tiger for a crime despite inconclusive evidence in DAREDEVIL, and treated Norman Osborn with more social respect and adoration than any Marvel hero has ever faced during DARK REIGN, and his murders have never been negated or removed from his record - he didn't even blame a Skrull for his crimes like Quicksilver did. Marvel citizens are just plain weird.

 

[moraldeficiency]

Basically before maximum carnage he and peter formed a tentative truce like peter did with morbius, or the punisher now that I think of it, that venom would only go after bad guys. Even got his own series as exactly what you said "Brock being an anti-hero now. His intentions are good, but he can't escape his crazed reputation or appearance - even in situations when he happens to be right.", called lethal protector. Then later millar had the symbiote (it was still a symbiote until slott reconned him) unable to keep brock's cancer at bay so eddie gave up the symbiote, went crazy, the whole nurse thing, blah blah blah.

Point is eddie has basically been what he is now for the past fifteen years give or take a few setbacks and such. This really isn't a new thing for him.

I do love how like venom gets a pass while marvel boy gets convicted of defending himself against his abusive father for excessive force. Add to that eddie has always been a *****ebag even without the symbiote. He was originally mad at peter because he cracked the real sin eater story while eddie was happy to let an insane person go down for all the crimes, thinking the real murder would "probably" just stop since he could get away with everything.

Really, I've never gotten why anyone thinks eddie is a good character. He's always been weak willed, spiteful, stupid and basically morally warped to the point of doing anything for his own good and getting what he wants. Makes a good villain but as an antihero the punisher or even deadpool are better human beings.

Personally, like most ideas for spider-man they should have stuck with the original idea which was far superior to torquing it into something far less compelling. Using the symbiote instead of the man as the villain and having it abandon brock and taking over each of spider-man's rogues one by one eventually learning what they knew, gaining some of their powers and warped personas and becoming this utter monster. That would have been much better and more compelling especially since Peter was basically a dick to the symbiote originally. Though I do like flash thompson as venom now. Shame they aren't using the symbiote for more than the standard monster within a man. Really the reason why it was on battle world was because it was the one member of it's entire race that DIDN'T want to kill anyone.

 

[Dread]

Basically before maximum carnage he and peter formed a tentative truce like peter did with morbius, or the punisher now that I think of it, that venom would only go after bad guys. Even got his own series as exactly what you said "Brock being an anti-hero now. His intentions are good, but he can't escape his crazed reputation or appearance - even in situations when he happens to be right.", called lethal protector. Then later millar had the symbiote (it was still a symbiote until slott reconned him) unable to keep brock's cancer at bay so eddie gave up the symbiote, went crazy, the whole nurse thing, blah blah blah.

Point is eddie has basically been what he is now for the past fifteen years give or take a few setbacks and such. This really isn't a new thing for him.

I was actually a big fan of Venom during the "lethal protector" era so that period I am familiar with. I "know" about the "truce" that Venom and Spider-Man made at the time. He moved to San Francisco and fell in with some group of homeless people who lived underground. He eventually moved back to NY and even became a government agent. By the late 90's, his prime was over so Marvel cycled him back into being a villain. Assigned to spook J.J. after he criticized some government agency or something, Venom tried to kill him and fought Spider-Man again. A bomb had been placed in Venom's chest to leash him, and when it exploded it drove him back to being a baddie. While he was still rarely an ally of other villains - he once joined the Sinister Six, only to betray them and try to kill several of them one by one - he was once again a foe of Spider-Man.

Some of those "setbacks" have still lasted many years, and mire the attempt to make him an anti-hero to a degree. By that logic, the 6 years Wolverine lacked his adamantium was just a hiccup.

After the start of the Joe Q era, though, a lot of wonky things happened. The cancer, the symbiote thing getting weirder, etc.

I do love how like venom gets a pass while marvel boy gets convicted of defending himself against his abusive father for excessive force. Add to that eddie has always been a *****ebag even without the symbiote. He was originally mad at peter because he cracked the real sin eater story while eddie was happy to let an insane person go down for all the crimes, thinking the real murder would "probably" just stop since he could get away with everything.

The fact that Vance Astro/Marvel Boy was convicted of manslaughter for killing his abusive father (who was trying to beat on Vance after Vance returned home from a battle, and was injured pretty bad from that) is only half the story. A lot of people forget how exactly the prosecutor proved her case. She drew a loaded gun in open court and aimed it at Vance. When he disarmed her with his powers without harming her, she claimed that proved he'd wanted to hurt his father, since he could have stopped him in a similar way. Even given a world with super-powers, one would imagined that if that REALLY happened, the case would have either ended in a mistrial or been dismissed.

Thus, I have come to the conclusion that every jury in Marvel's NYC just really likes convicting super-heroes when they get the chance. Villains get endless chances. That's why they keep getting out.

Eddie Brock's original vendetta against Spider-Man was always a bit deranged, and that was intentional. He didn't much care about what happened to the fake Sin-Eater; he only cared about the effect Spider-Man undoing his story had on his life. It is not uncommon for most people to blame all the problems in their lives on everyone but themselves. Many a Batman villain, either in the 90's animated series or the comics, came of some ordinary person's life being destroyed by someone else or a mundane thing. In ASM #300, the impression I always got was Venom was something of a stalker, since he collected clippings of Spider-Man, followed him around, spooked his wife and toyed with him before launching his attack (Venom, using his ability to block the spider-sense, grabbed Spidey's leg when he climbed a wall once, and then tried to push Parker in front of a subway train before outright appearing to scare MJ in their apartment and then fight him). And many stalkers seem to be unhinged or obsessed with their target. As an evil version of Spider-Man, Venom was a modern take of an old cliche; but as a stalker-villain, he was perhaps ahead of his time.

So in a way, Brock still being a bit obsessed with Spider-Man works.

Really, I've never gotten why anyone thinks eddie is a good character. He's always been weak willed, spiteful, stupid and basically morally warped to the point of doing anything for his own good and getting what he wants. Makes a good villain but as an antihero the punisher or even deadpool are better human beings.

The problem with Eddie Brock/Venom was that he became very popular very quickly, so a lot of stories were written about him in a short time-frame with editorial struggling to maximize his potential. This was the late 80's, recall - when Marvel was just starting to learn how to spam popular characters once they were hot, like Punisher and Wolverine. Many of his original stories were actually written by the same writer, but Brock's character sometimes jumped all over the place. Then other writers started writing him and as with today, things didn't always mesh and got complicated. The dilemma is that a character who was clearly intended to be a villain had to do a 180 so he could star in his own series as a vigilante - an edgy, lethal vigilante.

In some back-stories, Brock's father was vindictive and abusive, which didn't set him up well in life. I think there was some issues with his sister, too. In ASM #300, Brock notes how the deaths of innocents are always unpleasant - as he kills a cop who stumbled upon his hiding place in a church. Eventually that would spiral into Venom's quest to defend "the innocent" as a vigilante. The road to redemption for Venom came with Carnage, who was seen as being crazier and more dangerous. While Venom was willing to kill the odd cop or prison guard to escape or remain free, his vendetta was usually focused on Spider-Man (although he once pummeled Black Cat something awful - smashed her face-first into a wall if memory serves). Carnage, on the other hand, was a serial killer who killed random people for fun. Of course, had Venom really been vigilante material he could have always tried to act as one while still trying to kill Spider-Man, but, again, this stuff was made up as they went along, even if it contradicted other stuff.

When I was younger, I liked Venom for the design and because the angle of him being misunderstood as a vigilante appealed to me - I was in junior high, whattayawant? I saw him as someone trying to make up for an ugly past and trying to do good, but many people still saw him as a monster, and rarely trusted him. It didn't help that he looked like a monster, and usually killed criminals (or the occasional person by accident like in the aforementioned VENOM: THE MADNESS). At least he always had a twisted sense of humor. He was always supposed to be deranged, though - and that budded before the alien got to him. It just made it worse. The cancer gets blamed for some of that too, although that clashes with him being a weight-lifter before bonding with it, which justified why Brock was stronger than Spidey as Venom.

Personally, like most ideas for spider-man they should have stuck with the original idea which was far superior to torquing it into something far less compelling. Using the symbiote instead of the man as the villain and having it abandon brock and taking over each of spider-man's rogues one by one eventually learning what they knew, gaining some of their powers and warped personas and becoming this utter monster. That would have been much better and more compelling especially since Peter was basically a dick to the symbiote originally. Though I do like flash thompson as venom now. Shame they aren't using the symbiote for more than the standard monster within a man. Really the reason why it was on battle world was because it was the one member of it's entire race that DIDN'T want to kill anyone.

I heard the REAL original idea was to make Venom a woman - to address the lack of them in Spidey's rogues gallery at the time (especially since Black Cat had mostly reformed by then). But that changed. Spidey still has very few female adversaries. Commanda from UNTOLD TALES OF SPIDER-MAN would have been a good way to undo that, but she's been abandoned. This new Wraith is his closest in a while, at least since Paper Doll I think.

The symbiote was always a sort of dues ex machina in a way, and I don't think just having it be a monster would have worked. A lot of people thought Eddie's motivation was odd and out of left field, since he wasn't built up in the cast. Virtually every other revision of him in Ultimate or other media sought to correct that. USM made Brock an old childhood pal. The 90's cartoon built up Brock over several episodes as a rival photographer (akin to Lance Bannon at the time). The third film utilized that angle, while "SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN" was closer to Ultimate.

 

[WolfCypher]

Personally, like most ideas for spider-man they should have stuck with the original idea which was far superior to torquing it into something far less compelling. Using the symbiote instead of the man as the villain and having it abandon brock and taking over each of spider-man's rogues one by one eventually learning what they knew, gaining some of their powers and warped personas and becoming this utter monster. That would have been much better and more compelling especially since Peter was basically a dick to the symbiote originally.

I heard the REAL original idea was to make Venom a woman - to address the lack of them in Spidey's rogues gallery at the time (especially since Black Cat had mostly reformed by then). But that changed.

Fellas, fellas, you're BOTH right

Michelline (spelling?) had pitched the idea of Venom (being a woman) to his powers-that-be at the time, and his superiors, being sexiest, hated the idea of Spider-Man having a villain who would have the potential of beng stronger than him. "Make Venom a man" he was told. And so it happened.

Honestly, female Venom wouldn't have been THAT much stronger than Spider-Man considering that the symbiote would transfer Spidey's strength into its host and add to his/her own strength. Eddie was able to lift 700 lbs before being Venom, so it only made since that the symbiote multiplying his strength, such the level that it was, would put his Venom leagues over Spider-Man's strength, but I highly doubt a normal (even greatly physically fit) woman would have been enhanced that much higher than Spidey. Still, the argument was "no one would believe a woman can cause Spider-Man difficulty" so it was never done.

Then Michelline (again, spelling?) had proposed the idea that since Eddie first appeared in ASM 300, he should die exactly one hundred issues later (ASM 400) and the symbiote would beging ****ing it up around the Marvel Universe. But Venom as he was became too popular and Marvel had already made it clear they wanted Eddie to star in his own stories so that idea was debunked.

So yes, both are correct. Trust me on this

 

[runawayboulder]

The fact that Vance Astro/Marvel Boy was convicted of manslaughter for killing his abusive father (who was trying to beat on Vance after Vance returned home from a battle, and was injured pretty bad from that) is only half the story. A lot of people forget how exactly the prosecutor proved her case. She drew a loaded gun in open court and aimed it at Vance. When he disarmed her with his powers without harming her, she claimed that proved he'd wanted to hurt his father, since he could have stopped him in a similar way. Even given a world with super-powers, one would imagined that if that REALLY happened, the case would have either ended in a mistrial or been dismissed.

I remember that issue, New Warriors #25. What a great book that was at the time.....

 

[moraldeficiency]

I was actually a big fan of Venom during the "lethal protector" era so that period I am familiar with. I "know" about the "truce" that Venom and Spider-Man made at the time. He moved to San Francisco and fell in with some group of homeless people who lived underground. He eventually moved back to NY and even became a government agent. By the late 90's, his prime was over so Marvel cycled him back into being a villain. Assigned to spook J.J. after he criticized some government agency or something, Venom tried to kill him and fought Spider-Man again. A bomb had been placed in Venom's chest to leash him, and when it exploded it drove him back to being a baddie. While he was still rarely an ally of other villains - he once joined the Sinister Six, only to betray them and try to kill several of them one by one - he was once again a foe of Spider-Man.

Some of those "setbacks" have still lasted many years, and mire the attempt to make him an anti-hero to a degree. By that logic, the 6 years Wolverine lacked his adamantium was just a hiccup.

After the start of the Joe Q era, though, a lot of wonky things happened. The cancer, the symbiote thing getting weirder, etc.



The fact that Vance Astro/Marvel Boy was convicted of manslaughter for killing his abusive father (who was trying to beat on Vance after Vance returned home from a battle, and was injured pretty bad from that) is only half the story. A lot of people forget how exactly the prosecutor proved her case. She drew a loaded gun in open court and aimed it at Vance. When he disarmed her with his powers without harming her, she claimed that proved he'd wanted to hurt his father, since he could have stopped him in a similar way. Even given a world with super-powers, one would imagined that if that REALLY happened, the case would have either ended in a mistrial or been dismissed.

Thus, I have come to the conclusion that every jury in Marvel's NYC just really likes convicting super-heroes when they get the chance. Villains get endless chances. That's why they keep getting out.

Eddie Brock's original vendetta against Spider-Man was always a bit deranged, and that was intentional. He didn't much care about what happened to the fake Sin-Eater; he only cared about the effect Spider-Man undoing his story had on his life. It is not uncommon for most people to blame all the problems in their lives on everyone but themselves. Many a Batman villain, either in the 90's animated series or the comics, came of some ordinary person's life being destroyed by someone else or a mundane thing. In ASM #300, the impression I always got was Venom was something of a stalker, since he collected clippings of Spider-Man, followed him around, spooked his wife and toyed with him before launching his attack (Venom, using his ability to block the spider-sense, grabbed Spidey's leg when he climbed a wall once, and then tried to push Parker in front of a subway train before outright appearing to scare MJ in their apartment and then fight him). And many stalkers seem to be unhinged or obsessed with their target. As an evil version of Spider-Man, Venom was a modern take of an old cliche; but as a stalker-villain, he was perhaps ahead of his time.

So in a way, Brock still being a bit obsessed with Spider-Man works.



The problem with Eddie Brock/Venom was that he became very popular very quickly, so a lot of stories were written about him in a short time-frame with editorial struggling to maximize his potential. This was the late 80's, recall - when Marvel was just starting to learn how to spam popular characters once they were hot, like Punisher and Wolverine. Many of his original stories were actually written by the same writer, but Brock's character sometimes jumped all over the place. Then other writers started writing him and as with today, things didn't always mesh and got complicated. The dilemma is that a character who was clearly intended to be a villain had to do a 180 so he could star in his own series as a vigilante - an edgy, lethal vigilante.

In some back-stories, Brock's father was vindictive and abusive, which didn't set him up well in life. I think there was some issues with his sister, too. In ASM #300, Brock notes how the deaths of innocents are always unpleasant - as he kills a cop who stumbled upon his hiding place in a church. Eventually that would spiral into Venom's quest to defend "the innocent" as a vigilante. The road to redemption for Venom came with Carnage, who was seen as being crazier and more dangerous. While Venom was willing to kill the odd cop or prison guard to escape or remain free, his vendetta was usually focused on Spider-Man (although he once pummeled Black Cat something awful - smashed her face-first into a wall if memory serves). Carnage, on the other hand, was a serial killer who killed random people for fun. Of course, had Venom really been vigilante material he could have always tried to act as one while still trying to kill Spider-Man, but, again, this stuff was made up as they went along, even if it contradicted other stuff.

When I was younger, I liked Venom for the design and because the angle of him being misunderstood as a vigilante appealed to me - I was in junior high, whattayawant? I saw him as someone trying to make up for an ugly past and trying to do good, but many people still saw him as a monster, and rarely trusted him. It didn't help that he looked like a monster, and usually killed criminals (or the occasional person by accident like in the aforementioned VENOM: THE MADNESS). At least he always had a twisted sense of humor. He was always supposed to be deranged, though - and that budded before the alien got to him. It just made it worse. The cancer gets blamed for some of that too, although that clashes with him being a weight-lifter before bonding with it, which justified why Brock was stronger than Spidey as Venom.



I heard the REAL original idea was to make Venom a woman - to address the lack of them in Spidey's rogues gallery at the time (especially since Black Cat had mostly reformed by then). But that changed. Spidey still has very few female adversaries. Commanda from UNTOLD TALES OF SPIDER-MAN would have been a good way to undo that, but she's been abandoned. This new Wraith is his closest in a while, at least since Paper Doll I think.

The symbiote was always a sort of dues ex machina in a way, and I don't think just having it be a monster would have worked. A lot of people thought Eddie's motivation was odd and out of left field, since he wasn't built up in the cast. Virtually every other revision of him in Ultimate or other media sought to correct that. USM made Brock an old childhood pal. The 90's cartoon built up Brock over several episodes as a rival photographer (akin to Lance Bannon at the time). The third film utilized that angle, while "SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN" was closer to Ultimate.

Well yes it kind of was. Venom has spent more time in his current role of slightly crazy scary "hero" than as a villain at this point.

That wolverine thing happened during the clone saga so I like most people just didn't read or care. But yes it was a hiccup.

The real problem with eddie was he makes a good villain but a terrible hero. Really he's very weak willed and pathetic in so many ways. As a hero he's just not heroic. He's lived his life doing the easy thing when he's had every opportunity to do something better. He's that little whiney kid that's always saying "what about what I want". Which really only works as a bad guy. It would have been much better for him to just die or stay with being crazy than as anything heroic.

Yes, like I said, makes a good villain, doesn't work as a hero in the slightest.

Abusive father eh? Please that's really not much of an excuse. He's a bad guy, he had a moderately tough life and it made him weak and pathetic as a person. He's that guest on oprah that just whines about everything and demands things be the way they want it. I just don't see why people like him other than the design which I do dig as well.

Venom is a monster. In order to make up for things you must first admit your mistakes and try to make ammends not just start doing hero stuff. He's killed a lot of cops and innocents. I've never seen him even say sorry. He's not a hero. You talk about how you don't get zemo as a hero but you can see venom as one? That does not compute in the slightest as zemo has actually tried to make real amends to the one's he's hurt while brock just doesn't think about that stuff.

My absolute favorite version of venom and what he should be is what he was in Spider-Man Reign. That speech about how he was Peter's greatest neglected responsibility was just spot on for what I'd like to see venom.


Wolf, I believe that sounds about right. I just happened to think the idea of the symbiote jumping from on villain to the next and gaining parts of their warped psyches and powers would have resulted in an epic Spider-Man villain rather than the one note pony that eddie's always been.

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

http://www.thevenomsite.com/2011/06/asm-664-preview.html

looks fantastic. I'm one of the fans that actually really likes the idea of Anti-Venom and has since his debut. IT's just good to ahve Brock back in some sort of Symbiote suit.

 

[spider13]

what comic number did anti venom come in.

 

[Themanofbat]

It was in one of the early issues of "New Ways to Die"... ASM #568 to 5

 

[CantThinkOfAName]

568 to 573, you mean. NOOB.

 

[Dread]

Fellas, fellas, you're BOTH right

Michelline (spelling?) had pitched the idea of Venom (being a woman) to his powers-that-be at the time, and his superiors, being sexiest, hated the idea of Spider-Man having a villain who would have the potential of beng stronger than him. "Make Venom a man" he was told. And so it happened.

Honestly, female Venom wouldn't have been THAT much stronger than Spider-Man considering that the symbiote would transfer Spidey's strength into its host and add to his/her own strength. Eddie was able to lift 700 lbs before being Venom, so it only made since that the symbiote multiplying his strength, such the level that it was, would put his Venom leagues over Spider-Man's strength, but I highly doubt a normal (even greatly physically fit) woman would have been enhanced that much higher than Spidey. Still, the argument was "no one would believe a woman can cause Spider-Man difficulty" so it was never done.

Then Michelline (again, spelling?) had proposed the idea that since Eddie first appeared in ASM 300, he should die exactly one hundred issues later (ASM 400) and the symbiote would beging ****ing it up around the Marvel Universe. But Venom as he was became too popular and Marvel had already made it clear they wanted Eddie to star in his own stories so that idea was debunked.

So yes, both are correct. Trust me on this

Very well, I'll trust you.

The "a female Venom couldn't have been stronger" logic is very flawed. At the time, the gimmick was that the symbiote "copied" Spider-Man's spider-strength and bestowed it to Brock when they merged. Because Brock wasn't a skinny nerd, but a weight-lifter, he gained greater strength than Spider-Man. Thus, so long as the woman in question was at least modestly athletic, she still could have been physically stronger.

When Carnage was born, the logic was that Venom's spawn naturally passed along the Venom's strength too, but due to Cletus' "maniacal might", he proved stronger than even Venom (or the two combined).

In the 90's it seemed Venom's strength level waxed and waned from about Class 15 to 45 depending on the story, but the 2004 era Handbooks usually limited it at Class 11, or weaker than Scorpion or Lizard.

But, yeah, by the time issue #400 came along, Eddie Brock/Venom was way too popular to kill, or even write consistently. He just had to keep popping up.

I remember that issue, New Warriors #25. What a great book that was at the time.....

Indeed. Marvel hasn't been able to repeat the success of that initial volume.

Well yes it kind of was. Venom has spent more time in his current role of slightly crazy scary "hero" than as a villain at this point.

That wolverine thing happened during the clone saga so I like most people just didn't read or care. But yes it was a hiccup.

The real problem with eddie was he makes a good villain but a terrible hero. Really he's very weak willed and pathetic in so many ways. As a hero he's just not heroic. He's lived his life doing the easy thing when he's had every opportunity to do something better. He's that little whiney kid that's always saying "what about what I want". Which really only works as a bad guy. It would have been much better for him to just die or stay with being crazy than as anything heroic.

Yes, like I said, makes a good villain, doesn't work as a hero in the slightest.

Abusive father eh? Please that's really not much of an excuse. He's a bad guy, he had a moderately tough life and it made him weak and pathetic as a person. He's that guest on oprah that just whines about everything and demands things be the way they want it. I just don't see why people like him other than the design which I do dig as well.

Venom is a monster. In order to make up for things you must first admit your mistakes and try to make ammends not just start doing hero stuff. He's killed a lot of cops and innocents. I've never seen him even say sorry. He's not a hero. You talk about how you don't get zemo as a hero but you can see venom as one? That does not compute in the slightest as zemo has actually tried to make real amends to the one's he's hurt while brock just doesn't think about that stuff.

My absolute favorite version of venom and what he should be is what he was in Spider-Man Reign. That speech about how he was Peter's greatest neglected responsibility was just spot on for what I'd like to see venom.


Wolf, I believe that sounds about right. I just happened to think the idea of the symbiote jumping from on villain to the next and gaining parts of their warped psyches and powers would have resulted in an epic Spider-Man villain rather than the one note pony that eddie's always been.

Part of the problem with Venom as an anti-hero (I never considered him a super hero) is that inconsistent writing from the 90's. Even his co-creator seemed to alter his personality from one appearance to the next. One issue he's gleefully tricking and killing a prison guard or a stray rat to scare a hobo, the next he's saving an innocent child before chasing after Spidey. Even as a "lethal protector", he didn't fret much after killing a janitor by accident, and even went after Tony Stark once. Eddie Brock was mentally unstable before the symbiote, and the alien just enhanced that. Nowadays, that mental instability is blamed on his adrenal cancer. The alien has shifted a few times in terms of "personality" too.

Still, as you've said, he's been a wonky anti-hero longer than he was a villain, and even as a villain his primary motivation was solely towards Spider-Man. He didn't rob a bank or have any lofty ambitions for world conquest. When Spidey tricked Venom into thinking he'd successfully killed Spidey on an island, Brock was happy to retire there. He rarely united with other villains long and when he did, he often turned on them or went on his own.

I've always been more interested in the character more than the alien, though. The alien is really just a dues ex machina in many ways, providing the power and weakness, and whatever knowledge the character needs. Spider-Man battles enough monsters that he didn't need another. Venom at one point provided a bit of a "crazed stalker mirror match", but that was lost as Venom became an anti-hero.

At the very least, I don't mind how Slott has written Brock so far. He wants to do good, but is still deranged and nobody trusts anything he says - even if he happens to be right for once. He's almost desperate to be taken seriously, perhaps missing the "companionship" the alien gave him.

The irony is when Brock was pardoned for his crimes as Venom, that was actually the 3rd time he'd gone to trial. The first time, he was defended by Murdock and actually tried to claim that his crimes were due to the alien, but was proven to be lying. The trial was interrupted and he escaped prison. The second time Brock went to trial (again with Murdock as his defense), things went wrong when Carnage was the star witness of the prosecution, and the government decided to utilize Venom as a secret agent after that, so the trial was never finished. But, due to story reasons, villains always have wonky legal proceedings that contradict each other and don't stop them from getting out if the story demands. It's the superheroes that always seem to wind up convicted when they go to trial. Steve Rogers is actually lucky he was briefly assassinated before going to trial for treason - he'd have lost. Even though he'd likely have been the first person since the 1960's to be charged with treason.

 

[Shockdingo]

At the very least, I don't mind how Slott has written Brock so far. He wants to do good, but is still deranged and nobody trusts anything he says - even if he happens to be right for once. He's almost desperate to be taken seriously, perhaps missing the "companionship" the alien gave him.

I rather like this too, he's extra needy due to that void in his life. Hmm, where's Jenna these days? I hope she at least gets a mention soon. As I've gone on about previously, there's a couple things going for Brock this time compared to his previous attempts as a hero/anti-hero that I find interesting.

His comparing his little spat with Spidey at the end of the last issue to typical hero misunderstandings in team up issues and his giddy nature to prove he's a better man could be interesting. As I've said in the past, since his reappaerance, Brock has shown change from his past days.

-He's not super eager to kill first; in the Anti-Venom mini with the colossal title of colossalness, he noted how "things aren't just about me" and wasn't wanting to kill strangers because they're people like him. He did quite a bit of killing in the book, but that was after he was thoroughly prodded and psychologically badgered. In the past, he'd kill because it was convenient. In the ASM issue, he didn't even kill anyone when he could have. In frustration he chucked the one dude into the water (though how hard he was thrown is hard to tell, it didn't look overtly lethal) and even left the interrogated thug alive for the cops.

-The burying the hatchet of Spidey; again, huge. He did snap last issue majorly, but he watched Pete's poor aunt May, fall victim to Mr. Negative and while about to deliver sweet smybiote justice, he was booted in the head by Spidey who was not very eager to listen. The fact that he at some point was able to regain composure and you know, not kill Pete (as seen at the start of the current issue preview) and look for approval shows a change in Brock's attitude. "I'm right, I'm always right, and if you don't agree, to hell with you!" was his old attitude. He'd never really bust his hump to prove to others he was was different or innocent, unless it was a Carnage related issue, then he'd pull out the "Please..." card. I think his quest for approval and reform could make for him joining a team like the Thunderbolts rather interesting and natural feeling. (I loved how things were going until the stupid Free Itself derail....ugh...)

-His vision of himself noted by his drama-logue in the last issue paints him in his mind as a former monster and current avenger "with a higher calling" rather than a badass having a good time ripping people in half. He's not singing gleefully about ripping out someone's bodypart of choice.

Overall I am liking Anti-Venom's direction, and I hope his future appearances continue to entertain. I'm having a nice laugh at the exchanges and moments:

"Feel free to hang around the lair"
"Your lair smells funky..."
"Used to be a former meth lab"

Also nifty use of Spidey's cling powers to keep the mask on.

The only thing I'm worried about is how much focus is the Wraith going to get? I love the design and think there's potential in the character for the future if she's not just some one-note Mysterio-like plot. Anyways, I hope to get my hands on the latest issue soon.

 

[runawayboulder]

The use of the cling power to keep Spidey's mask on was the first time I've ever seen that since I started reading back in ASM #220's. I think it was used by Miguel O'Hara in Spider-Man 2099. I'm not sure, maybe a regular reader of that book remembers for sure....

 

[Themanofbat]

I've seen it in use before as well... but I can't remember for the life of me...

 

[Spider-Gnome]

Wasn't it one of his "Other" powers?

 

[Dread]

I recall Dan Slott having it come up in his SPIDER-MAN/HUMAN TORCH mini series, but I could be mistaken. I always saw him using it as the "Anti-USM", since in Bendis' ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN, anyone and their grandmother can, and has, unmasked Spidey. It makes sense he'd use his clinging power to make it more difficult.

 

[dtud]

I recall Dan Slott having it come up in his SPIDER-MAN/HUMAN TORCH mini series, but I could be mistaken. I always saw him using it as the "Anti-USM", since in Bendis' ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN, anyone and their grandmother can, and has, unmasked Spidey. It makes sense he'd use his clinging power to make it more difficult.

Yup, he uses it in the Spidey/Torch mini when Torch tries to rip of his mask.

 

[spider13]

What did people think of the newest issue of the amazing spider man.

 

[Dread]

Here's my review, with spoilers:

AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #664: This is AMAZING SPIDER-MAN's first foray back into the top of the heap since Christos Gage subbed for regular writer Dan Slott for a couple of issues. The irony is that while Slott is constantly heralded as the solo writer of ASM since BIG TIME started, he has often had co-writing help of late. Many issues this year were co-written by Fred Van Lente. This issue is co-written by Gage, who has often collaborated with Slott on AVENGERS: THE INITIATIVE and MIGHTY AVENGERS material. It wraps up the two-part arc which brings up "The Ghost Of Jean DeWolfe" as well as features the return of Anti-Venom (Eddie Brock's new mantle) and wraps up a long running subplot with Mr. Negative - a new Asian mobster that Slott introduced into the Spidey mythos back when BRAND NEW DAY started in January 2008. Giuseppe Camuncoli draws the 27 page lead story, with Klaus Janson on inks and Matt Hollingsworth on colors. The last issue was naturally the first part of this tale, and was sold at the top of the month.

Spoiler

Anti-Venom has a problem; he is the only one who knows that Mr. Negative is really the kind philanthropist Martin Li, who has launched a crusade against homelessness across the city - including the soup kitchen run by May Parker. Li is actually a character similar to Two-Face in that he has two personalities - one of them being a noble, kind healer, and the other being a vicious gangster with magic swords. Rather than being triggered by a coin flip or anger, though, the personality switch seems to occur at random intervals; Mr. Negative often rules at night, but can occasionally manifest some of himself (but not his powers) in day time. Given that Eddie Brock has a reputation as a violently insane vigilante (at best), he can't get Spider-Man or anyone else to believe him, and is intent on fighting Mr. Negative alone. In the meanwhile, a new masked vigilante named Wraith is scaring criminals everywhere, and while she claims to be the literal ghost of murdered police captain Jean DeWolfe, Peter Parker's clever CSI girlfriend Carlie sees another scenario as being possible. The last subplot that featured Carlie Cooper getting more panel time was a misfire, teasing about getting a Green Goblin tattoo. This subplot is actually much stronger, and shows that she has enough moxie to stand on her own when it comes to crime fighting. In fact, the ending seems to show that it may be Peter who continues to have trust issues. It is a cute moment in which all of the mysterious angles behind Wraith that Carlie seems to take great care into investigating and explaining to the audience, Spider-Man has figured out in about two panels - good to show his intellect in ways beyond inventing a gadget.

This issue has a lot of action in it's finale which Camuncoli draws brilliantly. While Mr. Negative's story is not over by a long shot, his racket will never be the same. Other characters, such as Phil Urich and May herself, also get some material to play with (as well as the always rambunctious J. Jonah Jameson). Eddie Brock, whether as Venom or Anti-Venom, is a character who has certainly been through the ringer since his debut at the end of the 80's. Initially a deranged stalker type of villain, he went on to become an anti-hero who commanded no end of mini-series and guest appearances throughout the 90's. He subsequently fell from grace and once again became a villain, a cancer patient, and a lunatic to varying degrees. Slott (and Gage) have a good angle on Anti-Venom here. He is once again trying to use his alien-derived powers for good as a crime-fighter; however, he still has a screw loose and is very eager to be taken seriously in that role. He is insulted when criminals are afraid of something else at a scene that isn't him, and his eagerness to have Spider-Man accept him as a peer in the superhero community is the crux of this issue. While Eddie retains similar Venom abilities as Anti-Venom, he probably lacks the assuring voice of the symbiote and his "neediness" perhaps plays into that long lost stalker angle. Anti-Venom seems to work as both a serious monster vigilante as well as a self-parody when the story requires either. Given how many 90's era Venom comics took themselves very seriously (despite the character's twisted sense of humor), it is certainly noteworthy that the newest incarnation of the character can hit either beat.

If there is one negative, it is that the mystery of Wraith seems to get wrapped up very quickly. While the subplot of her was brought up now and again in prior issues, and a major clue was dropped back in AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #620, it is wrapped up nice and tight now. However, to some this may seem as a story done without decompression. Does every saga have to be 6 issues long? Comics in prior decades solved a mystery within two issues all the time - sometimes even within one. A 3 page back up strip by Slott and Max Fiumara (with dark colors by VC's Caramagna) has Spidey train with Shang Chi once more to compensate for the loss of his Spider-Sense power, but it simply seems to exist to remind you that SPIDER-ISLAND is coming within two issues time. That will be a crossover which will total at 29 comics, which Marvel considers a "mini event" these days. MAXIMUM CARNAGE being a big deal at 14 chapters is something of a bygone relic of crossovers.

At any rate, this was solid, quick ASM saga, and hopefully the next issue follows suit before the latest crossover.