The Atheism Thread - Part 5

[Hawkingbird]

I could have evidence to prove there is no hat on my head....

 

[Danalys]

absence of evidence isn't proof of absence, but the more rocks you look under and don't find anything the more likelihood there is that gnomes aren't hiding under rocks.

so there's absence of evidence for a personal god cos nothings happening that's not either known to be natural phenomena or more likely to be discovered to be natural phenomena with a bit of investigation. so the likelihood is there's no personal god.

 

[redhawk23]

I could have evidence to prove there is no hat on my head....

That's really just another way of phrasing a positive statement about a spatial relationship between two objects, ie your head and the hat.

Even without actually going about it, you can lay out the conditions in which that relationship could be determined.


Its another thing to say 'prove that a purple hat with and orange striped brim does not exist, or prove that leprechauns do not exist.

 

[Hawkingbird]

I think once you start asking for proof of a God, you're misunderstanding the whole concept of "faith". Ever heard the story of Monsignorquixite?

 

[redhawk23]

Or they understand the concept of faith but don't find it to be satisfying grounds from which to operate, don't feel that it should factor in to decision making, or into other aspects of philosophy.

 

[Danalys]

only bring it up as a rebuttal when the faithful argue trying to use logic.

 

[redhawk23]

Well see that's what I find really interesting about Catholicism. I go to a Jesuit university (for economic reasons, can't beat free) so I have to take a lot of theology courses as part of my gen.eds. Anyways, it seems to me that the Catholic theologians get kind of a big head about Catholicism developing by "faith through reason" in comparison to their criticisms of fundamentalist branches of Christianity. The understanding of scriptures is supposed to be done through critical examination of the Bible and philosophical discussion, Aquinas and all that. In the end then though whatever tenets of reason they stick to when expanding their understanding of Jesus and God and applying that to developing dogma to address the questions of every day life in the end they are still pretty much blindly accepting the central tenet that God exists to begin with. Everything else flows from that. When I question why that central point is held to be true, instead of the lengthy developed answers that I receive to most of my questions, most often they reply basically because everything else falls apart without it. The question then is why not let it? Their whole world view falls apart without it, so therefore, it must be true...That's simply where the conversation ultimately ends. Its quite frustrating at times .

 

[Hawkingbird]

Well I don't accept there is a God in a traditional sense (I don't think I believe in a God at all). The philosophy from religion doesn't stem from God, it stems from the attitudes of humans at the time. Most of our values, such as "Do not Kill", come from the Bible. I do agree that the world is too heavily influenced by out dated religious philosiphies though. For example, the negative attitude towards homosexuals. But I'm sure there still would be backlash against gays with or without religion. We can't blame all our problems on religion.

 

[Danalys]

it's less faith through reason more application of faith through reason

 

[redhawk23]

Well I don't accept there is a God in a traditional sense (I don't think I believe in a God at all). The philosophy from religion doesn't stem from God, it stems from the attitudes of humans at the time. Most of our values, such as "Do not Kill", come from the Bible. I do agree that the world is too heavily influenced by out dated religious philosiphies though. For example, the negative attitude towards homosexuals. But I'm sure there still would be backlash against gays with or without religion. We can't blame all our problems on religion.

Certainly not, Its more of a matter that in the Western world, religion has pretty much been a deciding factor in so many of our traditional social norms, such as our prescribe views of masculinity or sexuality, that whenever there is now a problem or conflict or need for change, religion is often at the root but it is not necessarily the case.

 

[redhawk23]

it's less faith through reason more application of faith through reason

Precisely that, but they aren't willing to apply it evenly.

 

[Danalys]

Well I don't accept there is a God in a traditional sense (I don't think I believe in a God at all). The philosophy from religion doesn't stem from God, it stems from the attitudes of humans at the time. Most of our values, such as "Do not Kill", come from the Bible. I do agree that the world is too heavily influenced by out dated religious philosiphies though. For example, the negative attitude towards homosexuals. But I'm sure there still would be backlash against gays with or without religion. We can't blame all our problems on religion.

no but i can blame the attempts to undermine separation of church and state on fundamentalist christians. who seek to undermine education.

oh and i think "not killing" is as old as kin selection.

 

[Danalys]

what i don't get is jesus said the rules were written on your heart in his address to the masses. so what's the point of the rest of the book as a moral guide in that case

 

[redhawk23]

One of the weirdest illustrations of that inconsistent use of reason took place in my THEO 100 class my freshman year.

My class had gone off on a tangent talking about the crucifixion. My professor and a group of students in the front start talking about the exact way Jesus must have been crucified.

See they disagreed whether Jesus was simply nailed to the cross, or hif his wrists were tied to the cross beam first before the nails were driven through his hands or wrists, as was commonly the practice.

The argument was that unless his arms were tied to the cross, his impaled flesh alone would not be able to hold him up, that his weight would cause the spikes to tear through his hands and he would fall from the cross. The discussion moved to different ways his legs could have been nailed that would bear the weight differently and facilitate the hands being nailed without being tied, as is the most common image of the crucifixion.

All of that and yet these same people fully accept that this same man rose up from the dead a few days later, spoke to some people and then was subsumed into heaven and is in fact still alive to this day.


It was quite bizarre.

 

[Danalys]

that's like fanboys arguing over fiction within the rules of the fiction

 

[redhawk23]

That is precisely what its like, I often have to laugh a little as the hoops they go through to reconcile the inconsistencies in Jesus' personality in the Synoptic gospels and the Book of John as well as with later interpretation of Jesus is pretty much exactly what people do on these boards with Lord of the Rings, or Batman or Spock.

 

[Danalys]

that's part of why religions often been anti fiction. fiction shows what it is by how people relate to it. they particularly don't like fiction with magic cos it makes magic look like fiction.

 

[redhawk23]

Also the most obvious comparison is all the arguments about what should be 'canon.'

 

[Danalys]

i can't remember the name of the guy (started with an m i think,) but his canon was basically parts of 2 books. wonder what the world would be like if that was the bible.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Well I don't accept there is a God in a traditional sense (I don't think I believe in a God at all). The philosophy from religion doesn't stem from God, it stems from the attitudes of humans at the time. Most of our values, such as "Do not Kill", come from the Bible. I do agree that the world is too heavily influenced by out dated religious philosiphies though. For example, the negative attitude towards homosexuals. But I'm sure there still would be backlash against gays with or without religion. We can't blame all our problems on religion.

Hard to believe the Jews made it to Mt. Sinai without those ten commandments, ain't it?

 

[Danalys]

i think that's a comedians bit. would be nice to give credit

 

[childeroland]

The idea of not murdering and other parts of our ethos predate the Bible. We did not get those values from there.

 

[NateHevens]

I do not have evidence. But do you have evidence to say there is none? It's why it's called faith.

And that's why faith is stupid.

I'm an atheist in a sense. However, I'm determined to not let people call it "stupid" and "illogical", because it isn't.

Evidence, please.

I think once you start asking for proof of a God, you're misunderstanding the whole concept of "faith". Ever heard the story of Monsignorquixite?

Again... that's what makes faith stupid.

Sagan said it best: "I don't want to believe. I want to know."

Well I don't accept there is a God in a traditional sense (I don't think I believe in a God at all). The philosophy from religion doesn't stem from God, it stems from the attitudes of humans at the time. Most of our values, such as "Do not Kill", come from the Bible.

Nope. Most of our values are claimed to have come from the Bible, but all historical evidence suggests that these values are quite a bit older than the Bible... perhaps as old as Homo sapiens.

I do agree that the world is too heavily influenced by out dated religious philosiphies though. For example, the negative attitude towards homosexuals. But I'm sure there still would be backlash against gays with or without religion. We can't blame all our problems on religion.

Yeah... evidence of that is need... again...

You are absolutely correct that we can't blame all of our problems on religion, but I challenge to remove the blame from religion for the Dark Ages, the Crusades, the Inquisition, Uganda's "Kill the Gays" law, and, yes, the Middle East.

For the record... I'm not saying that there wouldn't be conflict over that area of the world without religion, because there's really no way to know.

However, the conflict that is currently happening is very much religious at its core. It's Christians, Jews, and Muslims fighting over their "holy land" because their bibles insist that this land is "the cradle of civilization" (despite the fact that all evidence suggests that Homo Sapiens evolved out of South Africa, not the Middle East) and a "promised land" or whatever.

The fight over land, politics, all of it, ultimately boils down to who gets to put their big worship house on the Temple Mount.

 

[Hawkingbird]

And that's why faith is stupid.



Evidence, please.



Again... that's what makes faith stupid.

Sagan said it best: "I don't want to believe. I want to know."



Nope. Most of our values are claimed to have come from the Bible, but all historical evidence suggests that these values are quite a bit older than the Bible... perhaps as old as Homo sapiens.



Yeah... evidence of that is need... again...

You are absolutely correct that we can't blame all of our problems on religion, but I challenge to remove the blame from religion for the Dark Ages, the Crusades, the Inquisition, Uganda's "Kill the Gays" law, and, yes, the Middle East.

For the record... I'm not saying that there wouldn't be conflict over that area of the world without religion, because there's really no way to know.

However, the conflict that is currently happening is very much religious at its core. It's Christians, Jews, and Muslims fighting over their "holy land" because their bibles insist that this land is "the cradle of civilization" (despite the fact that all evidence suggests that Homo Sapiens evolved out of South Africa, not the Middle East) and a "promised land" or whatever.

The fight over land, politics, all of it, ultimately boils down to who gets to put their big worship house on the Temple Mount.

You completely misunderstand religion! Religion is proof that man, who is so arrogant, believes there is something above him/her. It's a manifestation of our philosophy and fear of death.
Yes there is no evidence, but science is only based on probability. There's no definitive evidence for everything.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Actually, I think religion is often the most obvious manifestation of hubris.

Take the Abrahamic faiths for example. They say God made humans in his image. That they are given dominion over all other beings, and that the Earth was created just for them (dinosaurs were just thrown in for fun).

How is this not the pinnacle of arrogance?

I also notice that when people say they are doing a god's will, surprisingly often it seems to be what they want it to be.