The Atheism Thread - Part 5

[Doctor Evo]

It's an incredibly complex psychological tactic, but that's really all it is: a tactic. You make somebody feel ashamed of themselves (for absolutely no reason) and then tell them that there's a way that they can feel better about themselves - after you create the need for them to feel better.

The beauty of the tactic is that most of the people employing it don't even realize what it is they're doing or saying. They wholeheartedly believe the lie.

 

[regwec]

A very perceptive point, Evo. A lot of abusive relationships follow that pattern.

 

[jmc]

It's an incredibly complex psychological tactic, but that's really all it is: a tactic. You make somebody feel ashamed of themselves (for absolutely no reason) and then tell them that there's a way that they can feel better about themselves - after you create the need for them to feel better.

The beauty of the tactic is that most of the people employing it don't even realize what it is they're doing or saying. They wholeheartedly believe the lie.

Exactly, the shear arrogance of religious people to instill upon someone a problem they don't have and insist turning their attention to a higher power somehow will cure them pisses me off. The problem isn't the individual on a downward spiral, it's the religious person chasing the individual.

 

[The End]

This is a long video but a very interesting one. The Futility of Religious Apologetics

[YT]XYqJ5zwE4k0[/YT]

I love discussing/debating arguments for the existence of god, there's just something so indefinably fascinating about the discussion, and it sharpens your use of logic too.

I have just never, ever seen or heard a good argument for the existence of god. They all fall short. The video above does an excellent job of explaining why that is.

The traditional arguments, such as ones from complexity, are riddled with fallacies, obviously. But KnownNoMore takes another approach to really hammer home how useless these arguments are, an 'even-if' approach in which even the best possible case for the person arguing for the existence of god fails. 'Even-if' we granted certain premises in these arguments, they still fail to demonstrate a god as the conclusion. 'Even-if' there were historical verification of miracles in the bible, stating god as the cause is still just speculation.

And then when he runs through this rather thoroughly, he pulls back the 'even-if' to show the real world, in which the circumstances aren't even at 1 step towards a best possible case, in which there is no historical validation of miracles. He makes religious apologetics look... rather pathetic, really.

If you can't demonstrate that god exists, everything you have to say about how or why god does things is speculation. Guessing. If you claim divine revelation but can't demonstrate it, we have no way of distinguishing you from a person who is merely guessing. Apologetics is irrelevant. These are the reasons more people are becoming atheists.

 

[The End]

This is a really great testimonial from the daughter of a famous religious apologist who is now an atheist.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friend...notable-christian-apologist-shares-her-story/

There was one belief I held onto strongly, though — the one that eventually led to my undoing. I promised myself “I will never believe in Christianity simply because it feels right, otherwise I am no better than those in any other religion I debate. I must believe in Christianity because it is the Truth, and if it is ever proven otherwise, I must forsake it no matter how much it hurts.”

...

My certainty was my strength — I knew the answers when others did not.


This changed one day during a conversation with my friend Alex. I had a habit of bouncing theological questions off him, and one particular day, I asked him this: If God was absolutely moral, because morality was absolute, and if the nature of “right” and “wrong” surpassed space, time, and existence, and if it was as much a fundamental property of reality as math, then why were some things a sin in the Old Testament but not a sin in the New Testament?
Alex had no answer — and I realized I didn’t either. Everyone had always explained this problem away using the principle that Jesus’ sacrifice meant we wouldn’t have to follow those ancient laws. 
But that wasn’t an answer. In fact, by the very nature of the problem, there was no possible answer that would align with Christianity.



 

[regwec]

Question to my fellow atheists: do you have something in your lives which is somewhat ritualistic and community-based? Perhaps a book club, a regular sporting activity etc?

I ask because I have always felt that one advantage religion has, making it particularly attractive to those who feel socially awkward or lonely, is that it gives you an instant community of support. I think that unscrupulous religious leaders and organizers would find it much more difficult to prey on the weak minded if people generally felt that there was some alternative structure that would welcome them and make them feel wanted.

 

[The End]

Some atheists have conventions and get togethers like the Reason Rally, but events like that are as much about activism as they are about building a community so it may not appeal to everyone.

In the UK, some people have set up an 'atheist church' for the very purpose of filling the hole of community that religion once filled.

Personally, I've no real desire to meet with atheists in big groups. I have no real desire for that kind of thing at all. I'm fine just meeting up with friends.

 

[regwec]

I think you misunderstood me- I was asking if anyone followed a regularised pattern of social behaviour that acted to crystallise communal bonds, I was not asking if anyone went to quasi-religious atheist groups.

 

[The End]

Yeah that's the purpose of the 'atheist church' I mentioned. To 'crystallize communal bonds'. No confusion on my part.

 

[regwec]

I see. Your post seems to focus on meetings of one type or another that are organised and attended by atheists alone, in a counter-religious/quasi-religious fashion. I was asking about personal rituals, or social activity more generally.

 

[NickNitro]

As a raised Catholic, I am no Atheist but my roommate is. We have been friends ever since we were little kids, we tend not to talk about the subject because we both become very passionate about our views of the truth.

I am a person who believes in God, but its funny, I tend to believe in Ghosts, the paranomoral, UFOs, extra terrestrials, etc. I love the unknown and have always had a very fond fascination with it. My roommate on the other hand is very analytic, he believes in nothing he can't quantify or explain.

Is this a trend you've come across as well? Are you as Atheists more "if its not in front of my face, I don't believe in it" when it comes to anything, not just believing in a God? I've just been curious about this.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

As a raised Catholic, I am no Atheist but my roommate is. We have been friends ever since we were little kids, we tend not to talk about the subject because we both become very passionate about our views of the truth.

I am a person who believes in God, but its funny, I tend to believe in Ghosts, the paranomoral, UFOs, extra terrestrials, etc. I love the unknown and have always had a very fond fascination with it. My roommate on the other hand is very analytic, he believes in nothing he can't quantify or explain.

Is this a trend you've come across as well? Are you as Atheists more "if its not in front of my face, I don't believe in it" when it comes to anything, not just believing in a God? I've just been curious about this.

I don't know about trends. I can only speak for myself. I'm atheist because the concept of God just doesn't seem logical to me. It seems like something we wish was true because we can't comprehend the finality of death, that everything about us and our loved ones will be extinguished forever one day. I think religion gives hope for those seeking a happier alternative fate to look forward to, but it's a false hope imo. That doesn't mean I have anything against religious people (unless they tell me I'm going to hell or push their beliefs on me. Can't stand that). I have many religious friends and some aspects of religion are beautiful, especially the sense of brothership and the temples built in the name of religion (all religions). On the other hand, as we all know, some aspects are very ugly and divisive, like when religious sects go to war over who worships God in the correct way. Or when it becomes a tool of bigots to deny other people rights, like with homophobia. Anyway, I wish I could believe there was a Heaven and eternal reward where we can reunite with our dead loved ones, but it just doesn't seem logical (and don't even get me started on the stuff about humans being the only species that can go to heaven... seems a bit of a biased self-importance there).

 

[NickNitro]

My question basically was, you don't believe in God, do you not believe in other things you can't explain? UFOs/Extra Terrestrials/ The Paranormal/Bigfoot/etc. I see a trend that if you don't believe in a God you tend to not believe in any of that other stuff as well, and visa versa.

But thanks for that answer Ulcer

 

[jmc]

As a raised Catholic, I am no Atheist but my roommate is. We have been friends ever since we were little kids, we tend not to talk about the subject because we both become very passionate about our views of the truth.

I am a person who believes in God, but its funny, I tend to believe in Ghosts, the paranomoral, UFOs, extra terrestrials, etc. I love the unknown and have always had a very fond fascination with it. My roommate on the other hand is very analytic, he believes in nothing he can't quantify or explain.

Is this a trend you've come across as well? Are you as Atheists more ''if its not in front of my face, I don't believe in it'' when it comes to anything, not just believing in a God? I've just been curious about this.

Speaking from myself it pretty much comes down the physical world we live. If there's no proof that anything supernatural exists then why should I bother worrying about it? My issue is with religion is that it ruins people lives and makes us as a species worse off, instead of looking at our world in a logical fashion we're getting caught up in what amounts to fairy tales which doesn't help us in any way, shape or form, if anything prevents us from reach our true potential as a species.

 

[jmc]

Anyway, I wish I could believe there was a Heaven and eternal reward where we can reunite with our dead loved ones, but it just doesn't seem logical (and don't even get me started on the stuff about humans being the only species that can go to heaven... seems a bit of a biased self-importance there).

May I ask why you wish you could believe?

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

May I ask why you wish you could believe?

I thought I explained in my post. Who wouldn't want to be reunited with all their deceased love ones and have bliss and enlightenment for all eternity? Being an atheist is hard. It means accepting that existence stops with death.

 

[jmc]

I thought I explained in my post. Who wouldn't want to be reunited with all their deceased love ones and have bliss and enlightenment for all eternity? Being an atheist is hard. It means accepting that existence stops with death.

The loved ones thing I can understand, I won't lie it is a nice thought to think you may be reunited with your parents or love ones who have passed. I don't know about the eternity thing though, there's only so much of my mother I can take. lol

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

My question basically was, you don't believe in God, do you not believe in other things you can't explain? UFOs/Extra Terrestrials/ The Paranormal/Bigfoot/etc. I see a trend that if you don't believe in a God you tend to not believe in any of that other stuff as well, and visa versa.

But thanks for that answer Ulcer

That's a case-by-case basis. I definitely don't believe in Big Foot and the paranormal. Now I don't believe UFOs have visited us, but I do believe other planets support life so I guess I believe in aliens. Think about it. The universe has billions of galaxies. Those galaxies in turn each having billions of stars, with most have a handful of planetary bodies. The odds that we're the only planet among trillions of trillions that support life would be like winning the lottery a hundred times in a row. I find this view to be a bit arrogant and naive, especially considering we can see the building-blocks of life on our closest planet, Mars. But I don't believe in UFOs, because every star is separated from us by thousands of light-years and I just don't believe any alien race, no matter how advanced, can master the kind of technology it would take to cover that distance in their ship. Plus, we'd probably know if aliens visited us. The aliens of yore that are content to probe the backsides of rednecks and then disappear without a trace is a bit too convenient for me.

 

[jmc]

The question on life in the universe is not supernatural based. It's no so much a belief as it is about taking into account what we know of the universe.

 

[Snow Queen]

As a raised Catholic, I am no Atheist but my roommate is. We have been friends ever since we were little kids, we tend not to talk about the subject because we both become very passionate about our views of the truth.

I am a person who believes in God, but its funny, I tend to believe in Ghosts, the paranomoral, UFOs, extra terrestrials, etc. I love the unknown and have always had a very fond fascination with it. My roommate on the other hand is very analytic, he believes in nothing he can't quantify or explain.

Is this a trend you've come across as well? Are you as Atheists more "if its not in front of my face, I don't believe in it" when it comes to anything, not just believing in a God? I've just been curious about this.

Personally, it's not "if its not in front of my face, I don't believe in it", it's "if there's no evidence pointing towards it besides that of a book that says it's existence proves it's true (which is like saying a Superman comic is evidence of Superman), I don't believe it." I believe in aliens, for example, simply because of probability. As for them visiting here, I don't know. There are some events that seem to point towards it (ex. "Phoenix Lights") but I'm overall not too sure about that part. Ghosts, no but I do enjoy a good ghost story. The reason I don't believe in God (or, at least, a god worth worshiping) is not just because "if it's no in front of my face, I don't believe it", it's because, look around you. People are praying to Jesus and all that to pass their exams and thanking him if they do, but what about the starving children in Africa? Why would I worship a god that allows people to starve, suffer, child pornography, kidnapping, murder, etc...?

 

[NickNitro]

Well said, I can see where you are coming from now.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

Yeah, the "what kind of God would allow the holocaust/child murder or rape/terrorism/etc?" may be a cliche, but it's a pretty strong point. I've never heard an answer that's satisfactory, only ones that are demeaning or indifferent to the victim ("God works in mysterious ways" or "God didn't cause the holocaust, he only created men who caused the holocaust") The second excuse is the worst, because if God can't intervene in the most extreme of horrific circumstances such as the ones I described, then when would he intervene... surely not for a far lesser event like Tim Tebow scoring a touchdown... and then what is the point of prayer if all prayer is meaningless since humans are responsible for all events on Earth and not God?

 

[Marvolo]

Yeah, the "what kind of God would allow the holocaust/child murder or rape/terrorism/etc?" may be a cliche, but it's a pretty strong point. I've never heard an answer that's satisfactory, only ones that are demeaning or indifferent to the victim ("God works in mysterious ways" or "God didn't cause the holocaust, he only created men who caused the holocaust") The second excuse is the worst, because if God can't intervene in the most extreme of horrific circumstances such as the ones I described, then when would he intervene... surely not for a far lesser event like Tim Tebow scoring a touchdown... and then what is the point of prayer if all prayer is meaningless since humans are responsible for all events on Earth and not God?

I'm gonna play god's (not any specific god) advocate. Free will is a strong argument for why god would allow this stuff to happen. By establishing free will and to have true free will god wouldn't interfere. Another argument for it could be that god allows bad things to happen to achieve an end goal. This would make the deity morally questionable but its morality and way of thinking would be beyond us and most likely be less emotionally driven. Also if there is an after life the god could be giving them peace after death so their deaths in its eyes wouldn't be so bad.

Who knows really. If there is some higher being its not going to be like anything our human minds have conceived and it sure won't fit into our mind's ideas about how things should be. It'd be like an ant trying to process the information in a human brain. Us being the ant obviously.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

I'm gonna play god's (not any specific god) advocate. Free will is a strong argument for why god would allow this stuff to happen. By establishing free will and to have true free will god wouldn't interfere. Another argument for it could be that god allows bad things to happen to achieve an end goal. This would make the deity morally questionable but its morality and way of thinking would be beyond us and most likely be less emotionally driven. Also if there is an after life the god could be giving them peace after death so their deaths in its eyes wouldn't be so bad.

Who knows really. If there is some higher being its not going to be like anything our human minds have conceived and it sure won't fit into our mind's ideas about how things should be. It'd be like an ant trying to process the information in a human brain. Us being the ant obviously.

But like I said, the "free will" argument completely negates the concept of prayers, because the purpose of them is for God to influence events. They can't have it both ways. Either God intervenes and helps us and causes the occasional miracle or God is an objective observer who lets events be dictated by free will.

 

[Marvolo]

But like I said, the "free will" argument completely negates the concept of prayers, because the purpose of them is for God to influence events. They can't have it both ways. Either God intervenes and helps us and causes the occasional miracle or God is an objective observer who lets events be dictated by free will.

Praying probably naturally evolved in homo sapiens for some purpose. Praying is therapeutic for many people. Heck it may begun as something entirely different and evolved into what we now know of as praying.

Or there is the idea that praying is an ego stroke for some narcissistic deity. Maybe praying accomplishes nothing, but the deity likes to watch us beg and pray.

Meditation has always seemed to me to be the better activity. And I'd be willing to bet that praying and meditating are linked in their origins.