The Atheism Thread - Part 6

[SV Fan]

It was definitely a struggle. I mean, I grew up with a really strict, religious mother (think of the mother from 'The Waterboy'), and I was pretty much raised to fear everything.

Sadly many(not all) promote the you better listen to us and do as I say else you will burn in a pit of fire for eternity version of Christianity

Personally I was Catholic and for the most part they didn't put the fear of god in me it was just a case I found alot of the stories in the bible and the practices in the Catholic church to be questionable and the more you think of stuff the more you come to the conclusion this is a pile of BS.

 

[SpideyVille]

Yeah, I'm sure the next 5-10 years will be much easier than the last 5-10 years, especially once I get away from my family and can have the complete freedom to make my own decisions without worrying about what others will say.

But like many people have said in other threads, many of the problems and hangups that I face today definitely came from the fact that my college years were spend in a restrictive environment and my personal growth was stunted because of it. That's why now, my philosophy towards life is more centered around doing everything you can to better yourself and others, which includes things that I learned during my time there that I found helpful, while disregarding all of the other things that I feel do not yield any kind of positive result for me or the people around me.

 

[SV Fan]

In terms of what turned me off of religion

1. I found the RC Church's repetitive structure ridiculous, it was basically 45 minutes of the same thing every week coupled with a 5 minute sermon. This got me to think while in church because I was so bored out of mind that..

2. If the Church claims to be monotheistic, how the hell can you have 3 people be the same person in one, it makes absolutely no sense that God wouldn't just come down in person instead of sending himself through a pregnancy when he is all powerful. Beyond that why so much love for all the saints and Mary, the book clearly states worship only 1 fricken god. The church kisses Mary's ass so much you would think she was the 4th person of the trinity and I am sorry if I need help I don't want no second rate saint I want the big man himself. Later in life I realized the whole point of saints and Mary worship was pandering to pagan cults who many saints basically were offshoots of(while Mary Worship was to pander to the Cult of Isis people)

3. What the hell did the snake do so wrong in Adam & Eve. He was giving people knowledge, how are we supposed to view giving people knowledge as evil? Basically this is the very first story in the bible and it tells us don't question authority else bad things will happen. As a wannabe rebellious teenager, I found the one thing I could rebel against without getting in trouble(basically the snake was the hero of the story).

4. How the hell can you fit every fricken animal on Noah's Ark and them place them all in the country they exists now after the fact. And even if this story is a fable, why the hell would god just flood the world and kill everybody and that be some uplifting moral story?

 

[Shikamaru]

Sometimes I feel very ashamed of myself from the few years that I was a Christian and heavily involved in a church. I was soooooo judgmental and pushed away a lot of good people because of how insistent I was with my beliefs and how wrong I thought everyone else was.

We all have regrets in life. Best thing we can do is to learn from them. Be proud of yourself for not being the same person you were back then. In my opinion, changing for the better is a major accomplishment each individual should be proud of. Not many people can do it. Or rather, they refuse to do it.

I used to be ashamed of my religious past as well. I was never heavily religious nor was it a huge part of my childhood (I grew up in a lenient/liberal Christian household - my family believed in God but I was never hit in the head with it) so I can't say by any means that I went through the same thing you did. I believed in God, said a prayer here and there, and tried to be a good person (which at the time I thought synonymous with being religious). However, I used to think back to a time when I was 15 where I somehow ended up in a debate against an atheist. I would use a lot of the fallatic arguments I criticize today such as "You can't disprove God's existence", "where do morals come from?", the cosmological argument, etc. That debate was my first experience to first-hand atheism. After that, I spent the rest of my year educating myself on all sorts of topics - not just religious ones. By the time I was 16, I was already an atheist. However, I spent the next few months after that thinking "Wow, I can't believe I said all those stupid things".

Eventually, I started to be proud of myself. That year I spent educating myself went beyond just the transition from Christian to atheist. I started having more confidence in myself, was more rational in general, was no longer as socially awkward and had more of a social life, started doing better in school, and the list goes on. I didn't really realize just how much I changed until after the start of my first semester in university. It was then when I learned how meaningless the misery of regret is. All the should've/would've/could've stuff is pointless. Take your shame and look at it as one of your biggest accomplishments, if not the biggest. Be proud of yourself that you changed for the better and that you have come this far. Keep in mind that for every person that changes for the better, there are 10 people that stay the same or get worse.

Today is a good day and tomorrow can be even better. Remember that.

 

[KevanG]

In terms of what turned me off of religion

1. I found the RC Church's repetitive structure ridiculous, it was basically 45 minutes of the same thing every week coupled with a 5 minute sermon. This got me to think while in church because I was so bored out of mind that..

2. If the Church claims to be monotheistic, how the hell can you have 3 people be the same person in one, it makes absolutely no sense that God wouldn't just come down in person instead of sending himself through a pregnancy when he is all powerful. Beyond that why so much love for all the saints and Mary, the book clearly states worship only 1 fricken god. The church kisses Mary's ass so much you would think she was the 4th person of the trinity and I am sorry if I need help I don't want no second rate saint I want the big man himself. Later in life I realized the whole point of saints and Mary worship was pandering to pagan cults who many saints basically were offshoots of(while Mary Worship was to pander to the Cult of Isis people)

3. What the hell did the snake do so wrong in Adam & Eve. He was giving people knowledge, how are we supposed to view giving people knowledge as evil? Basically this is the very first story in the bible and it tells us don't question authority else bad things will happen. As a wannabe rebellious teenager, I found the one thing I could rebel against without getting in trouble(basically the snake was the hero of the story).

4. How the hell can you fit every fricken animal on Noah's Ark and them place them all in the country they exists now after the fact. And even if this story is a fable, why the hell would god just flood the world and kill everybody and that be some uplifting moral story?

Here's some answers you may find of comfort as I did once it was explained.

1) Shaddup
2) Shaddup
3) Shaddup
4) Magic.

I hope it's helped you understand the mystery.

 

[SV Fan]

4) Magic.

Well the animal part would be magic, the mass genocide on millions of people would be shaddup.

 

[KevanG]

5) Shaddup.

 

[Blitzkrieg Bop]

2. If the Church claims to be monotheistic, how the hell can you have 3 people be the same person in one, it makes absolutely no sense that God wouldn't just come down in person instead of sending himself through a pregnancy when he is all powerful.

An answer to that I've heard is that water can be liquid, ice, or steam.

 

[SV Fan]

An answer to that I've heard is that water can be liquid, ice, or steam.

Optimus Prime can be a transport or Robot it doesn't make him 2 separate people, he is still Optimus Prime in both forms. If the Holy Spirit is god why just not refer to the holy spirit as God basically. Only reason the Holy Spirit exists as an identity is because power trios were big back in the day and they needed a 3rd person/thing to complete it, but they had to make all three one diety else they couldn't stand by their claim it was monotheistic.

Funny thing is if you read Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and take all 3 as the same person, it is funny listening to Jesus talk in the third person. lol

Just finding a random quote

Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father."[Matthew 24:36]

So does this mean the God part of the trinity knows but Jesus doesn't? Maybe it's a bad case of split personality. lol

 

[regwec]

That's an ironic resort to science. All the same, water is not a single sentient being.

 

[Feenix]

You seem like a good person, SpideyVille. It's because you're a good person that you have the guilt. But, it's okay. You should believe whatever you want to believe as long as it makes you happy. At the end of the day, it's what your god asks of you anyways, right? If you have that relationship with your god and it fufills you and makes you happy, then nothing your mom says should make you feel like there's something wrong. It's between you and your god. For the record, if I believed in a heaven, I would say you're going there. Relax and have some fun at the party

 

[SpideyVille]

Sadly many(not all) promote the you better listen to us and do as I say else you will burn in a pit of fire for eternity version of Christianity

Personally I was Catholic and for the most part they didn't put the fear of god in me it was just a case I found alot of the stories in the bible and the practices in the Catholic church to be questionable and the more you think of stuff the more you come to the conclusion this is a pile of BS.

I grew up in Catholicism and eventually converted to Christianity, but one of the things that I gotta got tired off by the end of my run was that I would listen to my Pastor talk about a relevation God gave him that was based off of some Bible Verse, and he would talk as though God spoke clearly to him. But yet, if I ever had an experience where I felt that God had truly spoken to me and wanted me to do something, he and any other "leader" in the church would always try to convince me, or any one else, that they needed to be careful because it could also be the devil speaking and that they shouldn't do anything because God didn't reveal anything to them.

To me, this really showed how no matter what church you go to, what you're really going to end up with at the end of the day is man's opinions based on their understanding and interpretation of the Bible, which may or may not be right or apply to your own life.

We all have regrets in life. Best thing we can do is to learn from them. Be proud of yourself for not being the same person you were back then. In my opinion, changing for the better is a major accomplishment each individual should be proud of. Not many people can do it. Or rather, they refuse to do it.

I used to be ashamed of my religious past as well. I was never heavily religious nor was it a huge part of my childhood (I grew up in a lenient/liberal Christian household - my family believed in God but I was never hit in the head with it) so I can't say by any means that I went through the same thing you did. I believed in God, said a prayer here and there, and tried to be a good person (which at the time I thought synonymous with being religious). However, I used to think back to a time when I was 15 where I somehow ended up in a debate against an atheist. I would use a lot of the fallatic arguments I criticize today such as "You can't disprove God's existence", "where do morals come from?", the cosmological argument, etc. That debate was my first experience to first-hand atheism. After that, I spent the rest of my year educating myself on all sorts of topics - not just religious ones. By the time I was 16, I was already an atheist. However, I spent the next few months after that thinking "Wow, I can't believe I said all those stupid things".

Eventually, I started to be proud of myself. That year I spent educating myself went beyond just the transition from Christian to atheist. I started having more confidence in myself, was more rational in general, was no longer as socially awkward and had more of a social life, started doing better in school, and the list goes on. I didn't really realize just how much I changed until after the start of my first semester in university. It was then when I learned how meaningless the misery of regret is. All the should've/would've/could've stuff is pointless. Take your shame and look at it as one of your biggest accomplishments, if not the biggest. Be proud of yourself that you changed for the better and that you have come this far. Keep in mind that for every person that changes for the better, there are 10 people that stay the same or get worse.

Today is a good day and tomorrow can be even better. Remember that.

Thank you for this. I am definitely grateful to be where I am today. Even though part of me wishes that I could be as far ahead in life as I thought I'd be at this point in my life, I also try to remind myself and understand I have made some changes and who I am today is not the same person that I was 3-6 years ago.

And one of the biggest lessons that I had to learn throughout all of this was how to figure out what you truly want in your heart, and how to get it on your own without relying on some higher power to give it to you. Like I mentioned a while ago how some girl at my job said she would pray for me to get a part in the show I was auditioning for. But the truth is, in order for me to get that part, I have to put in the work myself. No matter how hard you pray, God will never give it to me unless I put forth an effort. And what do you know, I took the chances that I needed to take and made some "dumb" choices, but I got the part and I'm happier than I've ever been and its because I formed this new attitude towards how I need to live my life effectively outside of church.

You seem like a good person, SpideyVille. It's because you're a good person that you have the guilt. But, it's okay. You should believe whatever you want to believe as long as it makes you happy. At the end of the day, it's what your god asks of you anyways, right? If you have that relationship with your god and it fufills you and makes you happy, then nothing your mom says should make you feel like there's something wrong. It's between you and your god. For the record, if I believed in a heaven, I would say you're going there. Relax and have some fun at the party

Thank you as well for the kind words. It's funny because I put up a status a few days ago on my birthday because I have also had the same feelings of guilt towards how I disappeared and drifted away from a bunch of my friends that I had made after I left my church and eventually joined the theater club. My experiences with them, back then and tonight, have really been the ones that have helped expose me to new things about life and friendships and its really something that I feel has been missing in my life since I graduated. This is also why I was so depressed after I left church, since I felt bad about the way that I left and all of the people that I was leaving behind.

I've said it here many times before that I can't say for sure whether or not I believe in God, or a god, but I believe in something. And everyday I try to make the choices where I can go to sleep at the end of the day knowing that I made the best and right choices for myself, as well as for the people around me that may be affected by them no matter how "bad" or dumb" others may think it is. For example, at the party tonight, my friend's girlfriend, who is also my acting partner and the person who I will have to kiss in my new show, was a little drunk and was getting all close and cuddly with me. Now while it definitely felt good, to me, trying to take advantage of that felt wrong, and since I'm such good friends with her and her boyfriend, I wouldn't want to do anything to mess with what they have. And that's pretty much the approach I try to take with life in general at this point.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Not to change the subject, but I think it would be interesting if people who are today atheists (myself included, obviously) would meet their younger religious / not irreligious selves. Be an interesting discussion.

I grew up in Catholicism and eventually converted to Christianity, but one of the things that I gotta got tired off by the end of my run was that I would listen to my Pastor talk about a relevation God gave him that was based off of some Bible Verse, and he would talk as though God spoke clearly to him.

For the record though, Catholicism is Christianity. Hell it used to just be called Christianity before the spin offs started.

I assume you mean you converted to Protestantism.

 

[Thundercrack85]

PW, instead of telling us what you don't believe, why don't you tell us what you do believe?

Judging by the macro evolution nonsense, I'm guessing you think the Earth is 6,000 years old, man and dinosaur coexisted, etc.

But do tell. Preferably in a long-winded, condescending way.

 

[regwec]

Do you think that people who follow other religions are also "painfully/wilfully ignorant of the truth", or just people with no religion?

 

[SpideyVille]

Not to change the subject, but I think it would be interesting if people who are today atheists (myself included, obviously) would meet their younger religious / not irreligious selves. Be an interesting discussion.

I think it would definitely be weird/interesting because before I ever started going to church, I was reaching a point where I "hated God" and would purposely tell my mom that there was no God. But once I started going and got so involved right away, I went to a whole new level where, looking back, I can understand and don't blame people for getting annoyed by me. Heck, by the time I left, I was so angry and bitter that I hated certain people in the church because I felt they were very show-boaty about it.

But I'd like to think that I could pass on some of the wisdom that I've gained in these past few years to my younger self, not to change him, but to enlighten him a bit.

For the record though, Catholicism is Christianity. Hell it used to just be called Christianity before the spin offs started.

I assume you mean you converted to Protestantism.

Yeah, this has always been a tricky subject for me to understand because I remember asking my mom the same thing once when I was younger and she kept saying they were the same, even though she had been going to a Protestant Church at this time. But when I got to my church, they said it wasn't.

But to answer your question, I'm still not sure. My church was labeled as "Apostolic". I mean, we did the singing and dancing stuff, but I never felt like it was as strict or militaristic as my mom's church, which fits the mold of the typical description for a Protestant Church. But it's really dumb because there really is so much competition within Christianity itself that it really does hurt the religion. Like where my church was located, there was a long boulevard that went on for about 50-60 blocks, and me and my friends would walk it sometimes, and if you looked, you would see a different church on almost every block or every other block. They were mostly small places that could hold maybe 200-300 people, but its very telling how divided everything is and how each person's vision is different based on what they hear being preached.

 

[SV Fan]

Please elaborate.

I think his point is christian love their Leviticus when it comes to pointing out how being gay is wrong but completely ignore other things Leviticus points out as wrong such as eating shellfish and wearing clothing made of 2 fabrics.

 

[Feenix]

As far as God, I was/am/will be referring to The Creator.

As far as knowledge in and of itself, I know a lot of atheists that reject painfully evident scientific knowledge in order to remain atheistic.

I'm sure you have an example of this and it's not just a far fetched assumption you made to "prove" a point that isn't valid.

 

[Feenix]

I've looked through your posts. You haven't posted a single thing in any of the superhero threads, just the community ones. If you came here to preach, you're not going to get anywhere.

 

[Feenix]

Pot, meet kettle.

 

[Feenix]

I couldn't agree more.

He means you. You're deluded. And you came to this forum to preach.

How sad.

Ps. You still haven't given me an example of atheists who ignore scientific evidence so they can stay atheists. Probably because you don't have an example and you made it up.

 

[Marvolo]

As far as God, I was/am/will be referring to The Creator.

As far as knowledge in and of itself, I know a lot of atheists that reject painfully evident scientific knowledge in order to remain atheistic.

(emphases mine)

Interesting. You're one of the first atheist I've come across that admits a belief in absolutes. Do you also reject situation ethics and or morals' clarification in favor of absolutism?

A Christian's belief in the Creator's existence, much like an atheist's belief in the Big Bang Theory (hereafter: BBT) is a matter of faith.

On the basis that He has given us His Word. True believers in Him (there are fakers) generally refer to it as the Holy Bible.

Wisdom, knowledge and the parameters for life also come out of His Word. Actually, the term, parameters, and the article phrase, The Ten Commandments, are interchangeable within my personal worldview.

On the basis of both my stated premise and thesis within the bounds of this discussion and thread; specifically, lacking or refusing to accept knowledge of the truth would cause someone be in error.

I've already stated as much, and incredibly, I have yet to have anyone, including you childeroland, answer as to how a macro-evolution model for life on earth introduce morals. The claim has been made it has done so, but notably, no one has addressed HOW macro-evolution would introduce morals approaching the quality of something being right or wrong.

This is precisely my point. The cannibal LACKED KNOWLEDGE of the Creator and therefore created within his own mind what was right or wrong, which is what macro-evolution must insist should happen were it true.

However, the cannibal, without a higher law or law giver, selfishly made an exception for his actions while at the same time denigrating the exact same actions of another cannibal. At best the first cannibal was a hypocrite as far as right and wrong is concerned, and at worst the cannibal wholly understood his personal hypocrisy, but even so made allowances for them anyway. In other words, the cannibal refused to accept the obvious knowledge of right and wrong for his own selfish reasoning.

Herein lies the duality of reason; namely, the cannibal excused his actions while condemning the exact same actions by another. Are you unable to perceive the moral dichotomy?

The BBT is not proven and remains improvable, yet a lot of atheists CHOOSE to believe in it anyway. On the other hand, as I stated before, I wholly and completely admit I have faith in the Creator creating the Earth and universe.

Why won't atheists admit their faith based tenets?

I don't need to have faith in the Big Bang Theory. The math evidence and facts back up the theory. Its the same with gravity. I don't need faith in it. The facts and verifiable evidence is all there. No faith or loyalty required. And I suggest you read up on the Microwave Background Radiation if you're looking for proof of the Big Bang. Read about cosmic inflation as well. Hell just open a science book: Bryan Green, Carl Sagan, Micchio Kaku, Neil degrasse Tyson are all good scientists that bring the science down to layman's levels. You open a book and do some research verify some things show me you've done more than just bury your head in the sand and we'll be able to talk. Otherwise there's no conversation to be had.

P.S. A scientific theory is not the same as a layman theory. They have different meanings in English. A scientific theory is by definition a proven fact.

 

[Feenix]

Preach it!

You said atheists make up foolish ideas (like macro-evolution) and lack knowledge and are only rebellious.

So, you know, you're kind of full of it.

 

[regwec]

I couldn't agree more.

I was, in fact, describing people like you. I think that you are dangerous and that Jesus, being a decent kind of guy so far as we can tell, would have hated you.

 

[-Arya-]

Reading through all your posts PW, your key issue happens to be the origin of morality (citing the cannibal as the example). There are several issues here. First, the self report of one cannibal is nowhere near enough to extrapolate enough information about morality in humans. To do such a study, you would need hundreds of participants and carefully construct an experiment in which there are reliable and valid results. There have been many such studies done in the field of sociology and psychology that you should look into.

Second, morality is not as black and white as you seemingly want to believe. There is a spectrum of moral behavior that humans exhibit, and despite your distaste for the theory of evolution, morality can be explained in evolutionary terms. Granted, it is a growing field, and there is much work to be done, but nevertheless alot of evidence has been gathered that points to morality slowly developing over our evolutionary history (most interestingly in studying a variety of other animal species, which once again is evidence to support evolution). You can look into the scientific literature at your own leisure since there have been numerous studies done.