The Atheism Thread - Part 6

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Those tolerant, gentle Muslims are usually born and raised in the west, and thus are more liberal in their views. Just as Christians do in the west, some muslims do not treat the Quran very seriously, some ignore passages , and others do not take the time to read it at all. Unlike the Bible however, the Quran is far more intolerant.
 
The Qu'ran itself is not intolerant. Well it's probably as significant as the Bible. Don't forget for hundreds of years the Muslim community was one of the most forward thinking in the world, promoting scientific advancement and education while Europe was remained under the grip of the Catholic church.

They've socially been stagnant since then, whereas the Church managed to evolve and Franchis has dragged it, kicking and screaming into the 19th Century.
 
The Qu'ran itself is not intolerant. Well it's probably as significant as the Bible. Don't forget for hundreds of years the Muslim community was one of the most forward thinking in the world, promoting scientific advancement and education while Europe was remained under the grip of the Catholic church.

They've socially been stagnant since then, whereas the Church managed to evolve and Franchis has dragged it, kicking and screaming into the 19th Century.
I'm aware of the Muslim contribution, although to what extent Islam was the cause of the advancement is questionable. It's more likely that humans in the arab culture promoted those scientific advancements without any influence from their religion.

To the question of the Quran being intolerant: Any honest reading of it will clearly show that it favors Muslim brotherhood, and shuns away non-believers.
 
I'm aware of the Muslim contribution, although to what extent Islam was the cause of the advancement is questionable. It's more likely that humans in the arab culture promoted those scientific advancements without any influence from their religion.

To the question of the Quran being intolerant: Any honest reading of it will clearly show that it favors Muslim brotherhood, and shuns away non-believers.

I'm reading the Qur'an right now and so far it has been strong in its command to only act in self defense and to show mercy if an enemy surrenders and repents. And it has about a dozen guidelines for fighting that restrict actions in combat. Even polytheists are supposed to be left alone if they keep peace with the Muslims. The only time they can be attacked is if they repeatedly harass the Muslims by attacking their people, their mosques, or if they actively bar people from seeking Allah.

It's even made more than a handful of respectful references to the Jews and Christians.

Now granted I'm reading it in English. I doubt I'll ever be able to read it in Arabic. We have Muslims on these boards or those who grew up in that faith. Perhaps we should ask them what their holy book actually says.

Edit: all this Islam talk probably has the NSA so far up our asses right now that they could give us all prostate checks.
 
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I'm wondering what version you are reading, because the entirety of Surah 2 is filled with inflammatory passages.

Example: Surah 2, lines 6-7

As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not.*Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering.Theirs will be an awful doom.
 
I'm wondering what version you are reading, because the entirety of Surah 2 is filled with inflammatory passages.

Example: Surah 2, lines 6-7

As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not.*Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering.Theirs will be an awful doom.

Yeah and if you keep going the thru the book you'll see that "disbelievers" doesn't include the People of the Book (Jews and Christians). The Qur'an states that the People of the Book and the Muslims believe in the same God. Just that the POB went astray. The biggest thing it levels at the Christians is that they placed Jesus beside God as an equal. It state that Jesus was a revered prophet and that Mary was special among women and that Jesus will be in heaven. Its just not fond that the Christians took it too far and put Jesus on the level of the Lord.
 
Those tolerant, gentle Muslims are usually born and raised in the west, and thus are more liberal in their views. Just as Christians do in the west, some muslims do not treat the Quran very seriously, some ignore passages , and others do not take the time to read it at all. Unlike the Bible however, the Quran is far more intolerant.

You'll forgive me but you are painting with a broad brush there with a generalization that to me has a faint whiff of something very ugly.

I was actually refering to two people I know, whom both are immigrants, one from Yemen and the other from Bangladesh. Both came to the U.S. as adults and both are observant Muslims, prayer, no pork, the whole shebang. One I work with and he tries to live a peaceful and tolerant life. He often speaks out against religious extremism amongst Muslims and he uses the Quran as the basis of his position, telling me "Brother (everybody is Abdullah's brother :) ) in my holy book it says if Allah wished it so he would have made all the world one religion from the start, but he did not. So how arrogant is it for some to think the whole world should be Muslim?"

Even though I am an atheist and he knows this he's always treated me with kindness and respect. This impresses me, as does my very good friend Ed's born again lifestyle, because to my eyes he is also living up to the best standards of his religion, especially where it concerns compassion and caring for his fellow man. Though I cannot be a believer for many reasons, not the least of which is lack of evidence, if the world had more followers of in all the Abrahamic faiths that followed the rules of brotherhood and compassion set down in their holy texts we'd be in a better world in many ways, even if I think that they believe in something that is not so.
 
Yeah and if you keep going the thru the book you'll see that "disbelievers" doesn't include the People of the Book (Jews and Christians). The Qur'an states that the People of the Book and the Muslims believe in the same God. Just that the POB went astray. The biggest thing it levels at the Christians is that they placed Jesus beside God as an equal. It state that Jesus was a revered prophet and that Mary was special among women and that Jesus will be in heaven. Its just not fond that the Christians took it too far and put Jesus on the level of the Lord.
It's been years since I have fully read the Quran, so you're probably right about the POB, but the people of the book do not live in a vacuum. There are other religions in the world, along with those who aren't religious. These passages don't all of a sudden become exculpatory, because they don't include the POB. It is still very aggressive and intolerant language.
 
You'll forgive me but you are painting with a broad brush there with a generalization that to me has a faint whiff of something very ugly.

I was actually refering to two people I know, whom both are immigrants, one from Yemen and the other from Bangladesh. Both came to the U.S. as adults and both are observant Muslims, prayer, no pork, the whole shebang. One I work with and he tries to live a peaceful and tolerant life. He often speaks out against religious extremism amongst Muslims and he uses the Quran as the basis of his position, telling me "Brother (everybody is Abdullah's brother :) ) in my holy book it says if Allah wished it so he would have made all the world one religion from the start, but he did not. So how arrogant is it for some to think the whole world should be Muslim?"

Even though I am an atheist and he knows this he's always treated me with kindness and respect. This impresses me, as does my very good friend Ed's born again lifestyle, because to my eyes he is also living up to the best standards of his religion, especially where it concerns compassion and caring for his fellow man. Though I cannot be a believer for many reasons, not the least of which is lack of evidence, if the world had more followers of in all the Abrahamic faiths that followed the rules of brotherhood and compassion set down in their holy texts we'd be in a better world in many ways, even if I think that they believe in something that is not so.
I understand. My family used to be Muslims. That is why I was careful in my language to use terms like 'usually' and 'some'.
 
It's been years since I have fully read the Quran, so you're probably right about the POB, but the people of the book do not live in a vacuum. There are other religions in the world, along with those who aren't religious. These passages don't all of a sudden become exculpatory, because they don't include the POB. It is still very aggressive and intolerant language.

Well no doubt it's intolerant, but the Bible is just as intolerant on these matters.

John 14:6 KJV
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

In or out of context that only means one thing. Believe in me or burn in hell.
 
Yeah and if you keep going the thru the book you'll see that "disbelievers" doesn't include the People of the Book (Jews and Christians). The Qur'an states that the People of the Book and the Muslims believe in the same God. Just that the POB went astray. The biggest thing it levels at the Christians is that they placed Jesus beside God as an equal. It state that Jesus was a revered prophet and that Mary was special among women and that Jesus will be in heaven. Its just not fond that the Christians took it too far and put Jesus on the level of the Lord.

So it's okay to disparage other religions as long as they're not Christian or Jewish? How deeply insulting.
 
I'm certainly not painting everyone who follows the Muslim faith to be a violent jihadi. What I am saying is that the book (and, therefore, the faith, which is one of textual literalism) endorses violence and intolerance.

The "self defence" claim doesn't wash- the history of early Islam is one of violent conquest, and that began during the life of Muhammad (if such a figure existed- this is disputed). There isn't the same disassociation as there is between St Peter and Pope Urban II.
 
So it's okay to disparage other religions as long as they're not Christian or Jewish? How deeply insulting.

Chill out and have some tougher skin. If you don't believe in these books why do you care what they say?
 
I'm just puzzled about something here. Now there are some Atheists who are quite tolerant, but those I have dealt with are much more vitriolic and militant about their beliefs to the point of trying to force their opinions on me (Has something to do with their perverted, selfish, disgusting intentions I assure you.) that there is nothing out there even though science has confirmed there is a possible creationary atomic particle which logically explains the existence of "God" as a real thing, not some bearded guy on a cloud like many uneducated humans view God as. What baffles me is that they accuse Christians of pushing their views on them (Which I have not done at all.) but are guilty of the same intolerant behavior. I have no problem with people that don't want to believe in the "God" Particle and its level of creationary force, but please I wish Atheists would stop trying to "convert" me to their illogical belief system.
Just as a note, the god particle you're referring to was originally named the 'goddamn' particle, because it was difficult to find. Not because it is somehow linked to an actual God.
 
I'm certainly not painting everyone who follows the Muslim faith to be a violent jihadi. What I am saying is that the book (and, therefore, the faith, which is one of textual literalism) endorses violence and intolerance.

The "self defence" claim doesn't wash- the history of early Islam is one of violent conquest, and that began during the life of Muhammad (if such a figure existed- this is disputed). There isn't the same disassociation as there is between St Peter and Pope Urban II.

Actually it does wash because Muhammad followed the laws of Islam as far as the Qur'an was concerned about war to the letter. He even tried to make peace with the Jews in Jerusalem but there was a violent rejection. After that he was pretty soured on the lot.

Anyways story goes that on his death bed, he told his generals or followers to make war on the people of the Book or some such. It's a complete turn around from what he had been doing. Personally, it sounds like his generals made it up so they'd have an excuse to conquer and expand their power. Like what happened to Christianity in the middle ages, a group of men ran wild with it. You really can't go a few verses through the Qur'an without hitting a verse proclaiming Allah's mercy and forgiveness. Islam probably could have went that route if some power hungry generals hadn't seized power of it after Muhammad's death. Once again, I don't blame religion or a book. I blame the people who misuse it.
 
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Chill out and have some tougher skin. If you don't believe in these books why do you care what they say?

Because many people around the world choose to live their lives based on what these books say.

The reason I was annoyed with your statement was that Arya said the Quran preached intolerance against people of other faiths and you rebutted with the argument that other faiths only meant non-Christians and non-Jews. It's not as though discrimination is okay when it's only directed towards polytheists and atheists.
 
Just as a note, the god particle you're referring to was originally named the 'goddamn' particle, because it was difficult to find. Not because it is somehow linked to an actual God.

Lol that original name name may have been a PR nightmare.
 
Respectfully, you don't seem to know what your talking about.

The Qu'ran gives an account of the battle of Medina, which happened while Muhammad was (supposedly) alive. He wasn't "following" a book- he wrote the book, and it includes references to some of the deeply unpleasant things he got up to.
 
Because many people around the world choose to live their lives based on what these books say.

The reason I was annoyed with your statement was that Arya said the Quran preached intolerance against people of other faiths and you rebutted with the argument that other faiths only meant non-Christians and non-Jews. It's not as though discrimination is okay when it's only directed towards polytheists and atheists.

No I rebutted with context. The context is that the Qur'an doesn't include People of the books as disbelievers. And if youve read my other posts you've seen that the Qur'an doesn't even allow fighting polytheists unless the polytheists attack them first. So if people around the world actually read the Qur'an and keep it in context then extremists behavior isn't tolerated.
 
I'm just puzzled about something here. Now there are some Atheists who are quite tolerant, but those I have dealt with are much more vitriolic and militant about their beliefs to the point of trying to force their opinions on me (Has something to do with their perverted, selfish, disgusting intentions I assure you.) that there is nothing out there even though science has confirmed there is a possible creationary atomic particle which logically explains the existence of "God" as a real thing, not some bearded guy on a cloud like many uneducated humans view God as. What baffles me is that they accuse Christians of pushing their views on them (Which I have not done at all.) but are guilty of the same intolerant behavior. I have no problem with people that don't want to believe in the "God" Particle and its level of creationary force, but please I wish Atheists would stop trying to "convert" me to their illogical belief system.

Atheism isn't a belief system. And to call it illogical is really hilarious coming from a Christian.

This post is really confusing given that you called these "atheists'" intentions perverted and disgusting....what? What are you talking about?

And you completely misunderstood what the "God" particle is. It's really called the Higgs particle and many scientists hate the term "god particle" because it creates sensationalism. This is about physics, not some specific thing having "created" the universe.
 
Respectfully, you don't seem to know what your talking about.

The Qu'ran gives an account of the battle of Medina, which happened while Muhammad was (supposedly) alive. He wasn't "following" a book- he wrote the book, and it includes references to some of the deeply unpleasant things he got up to.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

I never said he didn't fight.

And yes I know Muhammad wrote the Qur'an. Well, he didn't. He dictated verse and his followers wrote it down. But he still had a code that he followed.

Also he was at war when he attacked Medina. A war that began with the persecution of his people and him. When he first went to Medina he considered Jews and Christians allies. This changed as he received more and more rejection and ridicule. If the Jewish scholars hadn't been *******s to him and his people history would have probably went a very different way.

Anyways, Muhammad's actions at Medina were political strategic and economic tho some might disagree. His actions there were also an exception and far beyond anything he had done up until that point. Given the fact that the Meccan's had been trying to destroy him and his people is it really any surprise that he did what he did? It wasn't morally right but it wasn't an uncommon strategy in war back then. And it was far from exclusive to Muhammad and his religion.
 
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I'm just puzzled about something here. Now there are some Atheists who are quite tolerant, but those I have dealt with are much more vitriolic and militant about their beliefs to the point of trying to force their opinions on me (Has something to do with their perverted, selfish, disgusting intentions I assure you.) that there is nothing out there even though science has confirmed there is a possible creationary atomic particle which logically explains the existence of "God" as a real thing, not some bearded guy on a cloud like many uneducated humans view God as. What baffles me is that they accuse Christians of pushing their views on them (Which I have not done at all.) but are guilty of the same intolerant behavior. I have no problem with people that don't want to believe in the "God" Particle and its level of creationary force, but please I wish Atheists would stop trying to "convert" me to their illogical belief system.

Atheism is not a belief system. It is the state of not believing in something.

So, they can't really push any system on you, but they could try to get you to abandon your belief system.

And it's actually pretty logical. "I don't believe in something that probably can never be proven and I see no evidence of." Pretty straight-forward.
 
I have yet to see evidence to prove or disprove a god so I just live my life as I see fit within the confines of the law of my area, give or take a bit. :p
 
Everyone's crazy on sunday DS.
 
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