The Atheism Thread - Part 7

[rodhulk]

Yes, it could.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_Earth

Awesome! I stand corrected on the thousands of years point. But the link says it became something of an official nature in the third century BC. Isaiah mentioned this 300-400 years before then.... which still shows the Bible got it right all along.

 

[rodhulk]

Yet you're freely debating with others here who seem to be rather, "full," to borrow your phrase. How very interesting...

Actually, only one user at the moment. And that's because he's actually attempting to answer some of the Biblical things I brought up.

 

[KevanG]

Where does it mention that? Because if you mean 40:22

"He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.

He's claiming the earth is flat. Not spherical, just round like a circle. Elsewhere in the bible it mentions the earth is on pillars, has four corners and has foundations. If you want to claim one thing that shows it's totally true then why did you leave out these other items which contradict that?

 

[Doctor Evo]

Actually, only one user at the moment. And that's because he's actually attempting to answer some of the Biblical things I brought up.

So did I.

I'm starting to notice a lack of consistency here.

 

[rodhulk]

Where does it mention that? Because if you mean 40:22



He's claiming the earth is flat. Not spherical, just round like a circle. Elsewhere in the bible it mentions the earth is on pillars, has four corners and has foundations. If you want to claim one thing that shows it's totally true then why did you leave out these other items which contradict that?

I don't see any claim of the earth as being flat in this passage. The only thing that is mentioned is circular which could also mean spherical and we know the earth can fit this description. As for the four corners, it could be north, south, east, west, as for the pillars and foundations you spoke of, here:

Does the Bible say that the Earth is motionless?

The following verses are often use by Geocentrics to claim that the Earth does not move.

1 Chronicles 16:30. Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved.
Psalm 93:1. The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is established, that it cannot be moved.
Psalm 96:10. Say among the heathen that the LORD reigneth: the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved: he shall judge the people righteously...."
​

The word "world:" in these verses is translated from the Hebrew word "tebel" [ Strong's Ref. # 08398 ] and it means "the fertile and inhabited Earth." It is likely referring to only dry land and not the Planet Earth. This is supported by the use of the same Hebrew word in geologic contexts that can only be a reference to dry land.

1 Samuel 2:8. He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the Lord's, and he hath set the world upon them.
​

Some times stalactites and stalagmites meet forming what is are actually called columns or pillars. These are most likely "the pillars of the earth" in 1 Samuel 2:8. The verse says that God set the world on these pillars, this shows the it must refer to dry land and not the entire planet Earth.

2 Samuel 22:16. And the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were discovered, At the rebuking of the Lord, at the blast of the breath of his nostrils.
​

Now,the planet Earth dose not have foundations but the continents sit on a granite crust, that go deep into the Earth and as such are quite literally their foundations, so the word "world" here clearly refers to the continents and not the planet.
In each of these cases the word "moved" is translated from the Hebrew word "mote". [ Strong's Ref. # 4131 ] According to Strong it means: "to waver; to slip, shake, or fall." So the word has noting to do with being absolute motionless, but a steadiness in motion and permanence. This is because saying that something does not "to waver; to slip, shake, or fall" does not eliminate other forms of motion. Furthermore the word "mote" is used in a geologic context.

Psalms 125:1. They that trust in the Lord shall be as mount Zion, which cannot be removed, but abideth for ever.
​

Here the Hebrew word "mote" is translated "removed". Now this is a geologic context and it clearly is not intended to say that Mt Zion never moves from geographic activity. Mt Zion has experienced Earth quakes. One of which is recorded in Matthew 27:51. So Mt Zion has moved in the sense of earth quakes, thus the word "mote" is not intended to speak of absolute motionlessness.

Psalm 104:5. Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
​

Isaiah 13:13. Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
​

The geocentric position centers on verses that are interpreted as saying that the Earth doesn't move. Most of discussion here center around the word "moved" but the word "earth" is assumed to mean the planet as a whole. However while the Hebrew word "eh'-rets" can mean the planet Earth, it can also refer only to the dry land on the planet Earth.
In fact, it is used both ways in Genesis 1.

Genesis 1:1-2.
1. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Genesis 1:10. And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
​

If the verses that are interpreted as saying that the Earth doesn't move, are referring to dry land and not the planet, then their scientific meaning goes from astronomy to geology. Based on this interpretation the references to the foundations of the earth are a perfect description of the granite continental crust on which most of the dry land sits and as shown above these references can not be a barrier to motion from geologic activity since so in these verse the word Earth, refers to the continents not the Planet.

 

[rodhulk]

So did I.

I'm starting to notice a lack of consistency here.

You're free to think that. Remember, the original reason I stopped the conversation with you was because you ignored a whole reply I gave you. So far, this individual hasn't that I can recall.

And I did say once or twice that I might reply to you again. Hope you didn't forget that.

 

[KevanG]

Considering that it mentions the ends of the earth many times in the bible as opposed to something like all around the earth, there is nothing that directly states that the earth is round without mangling the words given to fit various interpretations.

 

[MrsKent26]

So did I.

I'm starting to notice a lack of consistency here.

I wouldn't worry too much about getting replies. When arguing the merits of a belief system perpetuated by blind faith rather than logic/evidence, I think people would be choosey about what they respond to. You certainly shouldn't feel slighted because your posts probably aren't being ignored because they're illogical. I reckon it's quite the opposite.

 

[rodhulk]

Considering that it mentions the ends of the earth many times in the bible as opposed to something like all around the earth, there is nothing that directly states that the earth is round without mangling the words given to fit various interpretations.

But with actual words, scripture never mentions flat or square. The only time it ever mentions a "shape" of the earth, it is circular. Perhaps this can help in understanding the meaning a little more.

Perhaps no phrase in Scripture has been so controversial as the phrase, "the four corners of the earth." The word translated “corners,” as in the phrase above, is the Hebrew word, KANAPH. Kanaph is translated in a variety of ways. However, it generally means extremity.
It is translated “borders” in Numbers 15:38. In Ezekiel 7:2 it is translated “four corners” and again in Isaiah 11:12 “four corners.” Job 37:3 and 38:13 as “ends.”
The Greek equivalent in Revelation 7:1 is gonia. The Greek meaning is perhaps more closely related to our modern divisions known as quadrants. Gonia literally means angles, or divisions. It is customary to divide a map into quadrants as shown by the four directions.
Some have tried to ridicule the Bible to say that it teaches that the earth is square. The Scripture makes it quite clear that the earth is a sphere (Isaiah 40:22).
Some have tried to say there are four knobs, or peaks on a round earth. Regardless of the various ways kanaph is translated, it makes reference to EXTREMITIES.
There are many ways in which God the Holy Spirit could have said corner. Any of the following Hebrew words could have been used:

• Pinoh is used in reference to the cornerstone.
  
• Paioh means “a geometric corner”
  
• Ziovyoh means “right angle” or “corner”
  
• Krnouth refers to a projecting corner.
  
• Paamouth - If the Lord wanted to convey the idea of a square, four-cornered earth, the Hebrew word paamouth could have been used. Paamouth means square.

Instead, the Holy Spirit selected the word kanaph, conveying the idea of extremity.

 

[chaseter]

Rod...was there only Adam and Eve in the beginning or were there other people on planet Earth?

 

[KevanG]

kanaph meaning branching off of, not adding dimensions to. According to http://biblehub.com/hebrew/3671.htm it also has meanings of edges, corners and ends.

 

[regwec]

It's no surprise that Rodhulk doesn't understand evolution, but it is rather more surprising that he doesn't know much about his own holy book.

 

[Destructus86]

The original translation of Genesis spoke of a local...not global flood. Just to add that. The area where the flood occured was also located in a valley, a prime place for flooding.

 

[Breogan]

Perhaps this can help in understanding the meaning a little more.

Perhaps this 3rd grade child can help you understand the difference between a circle which is the flat area he draws out and a sphere which is the ball he is holding.

Now watch him completley mis the point and argue that - Hey you can hold a circle too! Yeah no kidding and it would look flat like a disc or frisbee, not a ball.

 

[SV Fan]

The original translation of Genesis spoke of a local...not global flood. Just to add that. The area where the flood occured was also located in a valley, a prime place for flooding.

That can explain how animals got to Australia, but if that was the case why didn't God just tell them to pack up and move to a place it won't get flooded. I figure that's much easier and quicker then building an arc. Basically why does God have to be such a drama queen.

 

[Hotwire]

Perhaps this 3rd grade child can help you understand the difference between a circle which is the flat area he draws out and a sphere which is the ball he is holding.

Hell with third grade, my KINDERGARTENER understands this.

 

[Marvolo]

Guys, lets try not to be mean and demeaning to each other. This is supposed to be a thread to discuss and debate intelligently. Not a playground where we gang up on people and insult them. Turning this place into that kind of atmosphere is a quick way to get the thread closed or to run people off. And if people of differing ideas and beliefs stop coming to this thread there will be very little to discuss or debate.

 

[Doctor Evo]

Guys, lets try not to be mean and demeaning to each other. This is supposed to be a thread to discuss and debate intelligently. Not a playground where we gang up on people and insult them. Turning this place into that kind of atmosphere is a quick way to get the thread closed or to run people off. And if people of differing ideas and beliefs stop coming to this thread there will be very little to discuss or debate.

Completely agree.

 

[regwec]

I agree in principle, but I can't blame anyone for having exhaustible patience when the other party is being disingenuous or displaying blatant dishonesty.

I'm genuinely impressed by how patient some of you are.

 

[KevanG]

I like arguing.

 

[Marvolo]

I agree in principle, but I can't blame anyone for having exhaustible patience when the other party is being disingenuous or displaying blatant dishonesty.

I'm genuinely impressed by how patient some of you are.

I understand its frustrating, but remember we are the ones with facts and science on our side. If a member wants to be dishonest or disengenuous let em. We just need to remain calm and polite and present the facts.

 

[The End]

Here's the problem Rodhulk is facing.

1. Obviously, it would be ridiculous to deny that the Earth is a sphere (although some DO, in the 21st century, deny this based on their belief in bible inerrancy)

2. He does believe in bible inerrancy, so of course, when the bible makes mention of the shape of the Earth the bible got it right (even though it didn't; the mental backflips required are extraordinary)

Good job on calling him out on this. There's other topics where I remain unsatisfied with Rodhulk's answers, most namely morality. Just keep pinning him down on the specifics.

 

[The End]

This is hung up in a school in England

 

[Marvolo]

Haraam? Im not familiar with this word.

Oh and Ive never paid attention to it until now, but the Arabic word for Satan (Shaytan) sounds like the way Sean Connery would say Satan.

"Mr. Shaytan shir, I mustache you a queshtion."

 

[DarkSovereignty]

Ugh, those kinds of people are the worst.