The Atheism Thread - Part 7

[regwec]

So, the weight of evidence isn't important to you?

You are relatively certain that the theory supported by all the evidence is incorrect, but you are "open" to theories that are wholly supported by evidence?

 

[Alex_Spider]

So, the weight of evidence isn't important to you?

You are relatively certain that the theory supported by all the evidence is incorrect, but you are "open" to theories that are wholly supported by evidence?

Of course it is important. But I don't think that at this time the conventional scientific community holds the definitive evidence to our evolution. Or maybe I choose to incline more on other theories because they seem more exotic and interesting to me and mess with people's belief systems t:

 

[lancimouspitt]

Of course it is important. But I don't think that at this time the conventional scientific community holds the definitive evidence to our evolution. Or maybe I choose to incline more on other theories because they seem more exotic and interesting to me and mess with people's belief systems t:

Alex,this might be up your alley:

http://www.amazon.com/Darwinian-Fai...6699676&sr=8-1&keywords=darwinian+fairy+tales

and this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwPoM7lGYHw

 

[KevanG]

Man, I am too tired to read any words more than two syllables or a sentence that's longer than ten words.

 

[Dr.]

...I just don't blindly follow the readings of the established scientific community. There have been numerous times in the past where scientific dogma were overthrown by newer and more radical researches. Maybe we haven't figured out all the answers yet and we are basing our knowledge on guesses. Again, I am not saying that's exactly the case of our evolution. I am just keeping my mind open to the possibilities.

Not really true. Arguably, Einstein’s theory of gravity comes closest to being a scientific “revolution” in the sense you’re describing. Under the Newtonian system, gravity was seen as an attractive force (analogous to magnetism); under Einstein, it was reconceptualized as an extra-dimensional warp in the fabric of space-time. (Blow my mind, dude. ) In the big picture, General Relativity became a better explanation than Newton’s theory. But here’s the important bit: almost nothing about Newtonian physics became obsolete as a result of this new discovery. Newton’s laws still work. Indeed, scientists still use those equations to send rockets to the planets. Einstein’s is just a more complete and robust system (accounting for more extreme gravitational conditions).

In other words, in order for a new theory to supplant an old one, it has to explain everything the old one did and do it better - i.e., reveal novel insights, solve remaining mysteries.

Likewise, it’s possible that some smart cookie will devise a theory of evolution that’s superior to Darwin’s natural selection. But this new idea will have to incorporate all the explanatory power of natural selection (change over generations, biodiversity, speciation) and then add its own new/better contributions. So there’s no wasted effort in understanding the current theory - because any (hypothetical) future one will be built upon the old foundation.

 

[KevanG]

Well to be fair, Darwin may have written the book on evolution (Hurr ) but it did take quite some time and effort before we had a more through understanding of what we now know. Although it would have to be a fairly drastic overhaul of the entire system in order to accommodate for any large changes in what Alex is suggesting.

(and yes this entire post was mostly to let me use that pun)

 

[Alex_Spider]

Alex,this might be up your alley:

http://www.amazon.com/Darwinian-Fai...6699676&sr=8-1&keywords=darwinian+fairy+tales

and this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwPoM7lGYHw

I said no apes
lol

 

[BestGirl]

Well if you have the belief in God and humanity's special place in his creation instilled in you from a very young age and then find out we evolved from apes your God fearing mind would feel like it is insulting or rejecting God or something of that nature which would make you fight the idea of evolution. Least that's what I've encountered in my local Baptists. They find the idea that we evolved from apes to be an insult to not only themselves but God and a slap in the face to him.

Then there is the idea that if we say we did it without God that we are being arrogant and showing a lot of hubris. Fundamentalists and Baptists and other Christian groups believe nothing, and I do mean nothing, is possible unless God wills it or allows it or helps. Even mundane tasks are accomplished through the help of God. Even our skills and talents are gifts of God. That's why you'll hear "God willing." said literally in the Bible Belt. Or "Nothing is possible without God." Or "Use the gifts God has given you."

Evolution just removes God from the equation entirely for these people. Plus, when you think about it if Evolution is true (it is) then there was no Adam and eve. Which means there was no Original Sin. Which negates the need for Jesus to die for our sins. Which means the New Testament is largely B.S.. Which essentially causes Christianity as a belief system to fall apart.

I believe in God, but not Original Sin which is why I don't worship Jesus as a god and can accept scientific facts like evolution without having a theological crisis. For others who believe in God and Original Sin this just isn't the case and their brain glitches when they try to reconcile all these ideas. For them it's a square peg in a round hole so they cling to the beliefs they've had since childhood because it makes them feel safe.

Yet somehow Catholics manage to believe in evolution without denying the divinity of Christ.

I remember being taught about original sin even though my teachers weren't really biblical literalists. I wish I remember more about how they reconciled evolution with these ideas.

 

[Anubis]

Simple.

Everything evolution states happened, but God kick started it all. I believe he only had to raise about $2200 to do it.

 

[rodhulk]

Yeah, something along those lines. I just don't blindly follow the readings of the established scientific community. There have been numerous times in the past where scientific dogma were overthrown by newer and more radical researches. Maybe we haven't figured out all the answers yet and we are basing our knowledge on guesses. Again, I am not saying that's exactly the case of our evolution. I am just keeping my mind open to the possibilities.

I agree (at least pretty much) with your post. And from another post, it doesn't actually matter that humans may very closely resemble another species almost identical to us, why couldn't God have created both the way they are? And it's interesting to note something on the big bang and God, that they both are said to have spread things out to create the universe. Could God be the origin behind the big bang?

 

[Feenix]

Because it's a scientific fact that we evolved. I've been watching Cosmos with Neil DeGrasse Tyson, and he explains things so eloquently and with evidence to back up his statements. You learn how we came to be here and what drove the process.

Just like the universe (and the Earth) being billions of years old is a fact, so is that we evolved from a similar ancestor to apes.

The jist of it is that, while mutations are random, the ones that are selected for are not. It's driven by natural selection. The environment chooses which mutations survive and flourish. Evolution is not a straight line process, it's more like a tree, with millions of little branches and twigs. We evolved alongside apes, and because of certain mutations that happened within our species, we became what we are now.

A god had nothing to do with it. Evolution isn't perfect and we can see that through our weak shoulders and knees, our poor eyesight compared to the rest of the animal kingdom, our weak immune systems that seem to make us sick so often, etc. Why would a god make us make us so anatomically weak, but give us developed brains?

As for a god starting the Big Bang, it's possible, however, that would just be a name for the event that triggered the Big Bang. It would not be evidence of an all powerful god who cares about whether or not you rub one out to gay porn.

One of the scenarios put forth in Cosmos was that, before our universe came to be, there was a massive star that died and created a black hole and our universe is inside this black hole.

Makes you realize just how small and insignificant the Earth is in the grand scheme of things.

It personally makes me want to get as much out of this life as possible.

 

[rodhulk]

I mentioned God and the big bang because as far as I know, this does not prove God does not exist. It could very well be the act of God.

As for the earth being millions or more years old, it is possible since Genesis 1:1 and the later verses of Genesis may have time in between. I'm seriously not sure of that yet. I do not believe in a gap theory that some Christians keep to, that there was a pre-Adam world with life. Just that the universe may have sat their while, perhaps, God dealt withother things like the angels and their fall (the ones that fell). Or perhaps all is just thousands of years old.

As for evolution, I agree eveolution is true, we've seen this observed. But not where one species becomes a complete new and original species over a vast amount of time. God created things to be "after their kind" and I elieve this is what we observe today.

 

[Marvolo]

Yet somehow Catholics manage to believe in evolution without denying the divinity of Christ.

I remember being taught about original sin even though my teachers weren't really biblical literalists. I wish I remember more about how they reconciled evolution with these ideas.

Well I know they do, but Catholics and Baptists and some other Protestant groups come at Christianity from very different angles. Honestly I don't know how Catholics reconcile the ideas. If they really thought about it I don't think they'd be able to. Most Catholics probably don't think too much about it all tho. They just roll with it or don't pay it much attention.

There was no Adam and Eve or garden or fruit or fall of mankind or any of that so it draws into question a lot of the credibility of the New Testament and it's message. Personally, I've always found Original Sin as a concept to be ludicrous. God is over all and can do whatever he wants whenever he wants however he wants. Yet, a snake in a garden messes it all up and causes corruption to spread through the whole species. So God has to knock up a human virgin and split himself in two and become human but still be entirely God then sacrifice himself to cleanse mankind. It's just convoluted nonsense. I mean sure I guess he could but it's a long con to fix what shouldn't even be a problem for God.

 

[Feenix]

I mentioned God and the big bang because as far as I know, this does not prove God does not exist. It could very well be the act of God.

As for the earth being millions or more years old, it is possible since Genesis 1:1 and the later verses of Genesis may have time in between. I'm seriously not sure of that yet. I do not believe in a gap theory that some Christians keep to, that there was a pre-Adam world with life. Just that the universe may have sat their while, perhaps, God dealt withother things like the angels and their fall (the ones that fell). Or perhaps all is just thousands of years old.

As for evolution, I agree eveolution is true, we've seen this observed. But not where one species becomes a complete new and original species over a vast amount of time. God created things to be "after their kind" and I elieve this is what we observe today.

It is not possible, it's absolute fact that the Earth and the universe are billions of years old.

You can't believe in evolution being true for some aspects and not others. We all evolved from a single celled organism through mutations and natural selection. This is fact. If you have micro evolution happening, given enough time, macro evolution follows. This process takes thousands upon thousands (even millions) of years, so you wouldn't be able to observe it in your lifetime. We can determine from fossils that macro evolution has happened, is happening, and will continue to happen. The process is just very slow and not observable within a few humans' lifetimes.

 

[Alex_Spider]

Well I know they do, but Catholics and Baptists and some other Protestant groups come at Christianity from very different angles. Honestly I don't know how Catholics reconcile the ideas. If they really thought about it I don't think they'd be able to. Most Catholics probably don't think too much about it all tho. They just roll with it or don't pay it much attention.

There was no Adam and Eve or garden or fruit or fall of mankind or any of that so it draws into question a lot of the credibility of the New Testament and it's message. Personally, I've always found Original Sin as a concept to be ludicrous. God is over all and can do whatever he wants whenever he wants however he wants. Yet, a snake in a garden messes it all up and causes corruption to spread through the whole species. So God has to knock up a human virgin and split himself in two and become human but still be entirely God then sacrifice himself to cleanse mankind. It's just convoluted nonsense. I mean sure I guess he could but it's a long con to fix what shouldn't even be a problem for God.

Wouldn't that very well be an allegory for a scenario where ancient alien astronauts landed on Earth and helped mankind to evolve. For the primitive man those aliens would be considered as "god". The garden of Eden could very well be a gigantic spaceship that the first humans lived or a place on Earth with green vegetation and a safe environment, far away from the dangerous carnivores and the harsh conditions like cold and volcano eruption.

Now, the snake or the "fallen angels" could be some of those aliens that wanted to share with humanity all of their tech and advance us faster. Just like Prometheus stole the fire from the gods. Something happened in between and the "god abandoned us" and kicked us out of his paradise to survive alone on Earth. And since then we 're waiting for him to come back..
Hell, wouldn't a similar scenario play out in the future if humans landed on another planet that had primitive life? They would worship us as gods as soon as we contacted them and assume that we are their creators. But then of course the next question would be, and who created the creators of our creators and so on

 

[KevanG]

I'd be way more hyped to learn aliens exist than god. Aliens would be awesome and we could learn from them (totally awesome) or have a galactic space war (not really a great option). Dealing with god or a pantheon of gods would be totally confusing and beyond weird. The creator god would probably kill us all within a week because we would not stop trying to test, study and figure out what he is and how he works. We'd pester him all the time and I'm pretty sure even infinite patience has its limits. I don't even have any idea how we'd deal with a full on pantheon.

If it turned out that the whole 6 days and 6000 years thing was true then we'd pester him for new laws of physics since our current ones don't hold to any known form that that works with. Everything we know for most sciences would be wrong and have to be retaught under new rules, there'd be mass panic and chaos for quite some time since even with small religious changes people tend to throw a ****fit and we'd probably try to kill him with nukes or what have you just because we're insane like that. Can you imagine how pissed everyone would be if he showed up, proved divinity and basically said all religions are wrong except Buddhism which only had sorta the right idea? If he said he was fine with gay folks, there's no hell and it's all just reincarnation with no afterlife?

Actually now that I've said it I kinda want to see it happen, just for the heck of it.

 

[Marvolo]

I'd be way more hyped to learn aliens exist than god. Aliens would be awesome and we could learn from them (totally awesome) or have a galactic space war (not really a great option). Dealing with god or a pantheon of gods would be totally confusing and beyond weird. The creator god would probably kill us all within a week because we would not stop trying to test, study and figure out what he is and how he works. We'd pester him all the time and I'm pretty sure even infinite patience has its limits. I don't even have any idea how we'd deal with a full on pantheon.

If it turned out that the whole 6 days and 6000 years thing was true then we'd pester him for new laws of physics since our current ones don't hold to any known form that that works with. Everything we know for most sciences would be wrong and have to be retaught under new rules, there'd be mass panic and chaos for quite some time since even with small religious changes people tend to throw a ****fit and we'd probably try to kill him with nukes or what have you just because we're insane like that. Can you imagine how pissed everyone would be if he showed up, proved divinity and basically said all religions are wrong except Buddhism which only had sorta the right idea? If he said he was fine with gay folks, there's no hell and it's all just reincarnation with no afterlife?

Actually now that I've said it I kinda want to see it happen, just for the heck of it.

Around 2 billion people would call him the anti-christ and start praying to their God for help. Which would be hilarious because their prayers would be going to the one they think is the anti-christ. He'd be like "Guys I'm right here. I'm not the anti-christ." To which all those people would say:

Until he got fed up and said "**** it!" and did this:

 

[Alex_Spider]

As much as the movie Prometheus gets flack and hate for some stupid choices it made, I think it gave a very good representation of the concept of the engineers creating humanity and how we would feel if we found them. I think something along those lines might have happened regarding our creation and evolution.
A higher civilisation visited Earth millions of years ago, maybe terraformed it and was experimenting with the creation of a life form just because they could. Just like we today construct machinery and robots. To experiment with our potential limits and for the thrill of discovery.

 

[KevanG]

And his response to the prayers "You know, I really can't hear any of you. It's just kinda a psychic buzz in the back of my head. If you to talk, send me an email. It's [email protected] or on twitter #BigG."

Ugh, Prometheus. If they had listed it as a separate movie I'd find it a bit better but trying to force it into the Aliens series just made it worse. Also, that idea is kinda the whole Superhero idea in the Marvel comics universe. About a half dozen different aliens came by and futzed up out DNA a dozen ways to Sunday over the past few million years.

 

[MrsKent26]

Yeah, something along those lines. I just don't blindly follow the readings of the established scientific community. There have been numerous times in the past where scientific dogma were overthrown by newer and more radical researches. Maybe we haven't figured out all the answers yet and we are basing our knowledge on guesses. Again, I am not saying that's exactly the case of our evolution. I am just keeping my mind open to the possibilities.

That's the beauty of science. It presents a certain theory as the most likely to be true based on evidence until new evidence is received to discredit the theory. Science evolves and changes with actual evidence, as opposed to religion which is neither evidenced based, nor particularly accepting of ideas that are almost completely different than what came before. Only science is able to do a complete turnabout if the eviendce points in another direction.

 

[KevanG]

Sorry MrsK, for that now we have to burn you at the stake for being a heathen.

 

[MrsKent26]

Sorry MrsK, for that now we have to burn you at the stake for being a heathen.

I'm not afraid. Even if I wasn't a heathen, God might let me burn in hell for my misdeeds. I'm ****ed either way, lol.

 

[KevanG]

You mean that thing that one time that no one should know about but got leaked onto the internet anyway? It's not for that. It's that I never got those brownies you sent me.

 

[Alex_Spider]

That's the beauty of science. It presents a certain theory as the most likely to be true based on evidence until new evidence is received to discredit the theory. Science evolves and changes with actual evidence, as opposed to religion which is neither evidenced based, nor particularly accepting of ideas that are almost completely different than what came before. Only science is able to do a complete turnabout if the eviendce points in another direction.

Yeah, absolutely. If anything our everyday lives should be "governed" by science not by politics and economics.
The problem though lies in the fact that the conventional scientific community throughout human history, is controlled by the establishment to serve an agenda and doesn't exactly care about progressing our knowledge and advancing us as a species. That's why I prefer the work of independent researchers and volunteers that are not paid by a wealthy corporation to extract results that fit their agenda.

 

[MrsKent26]

You mean that thing that one time that no one should know about but got leaked onto the internet anyway? It's not for that. It's that I never got those brownies you sent me.

I sent them, I swear! I can't believe you told your God about that!