The Atheism Thread - Part 7

[rodhulk]

Actually you don't answer the problems raised, you just make assertions, which I'll show in a moment.



I'd just like to know where you're getting your translations.

The Hebrew Names version says this.

Isaiah 40:26 Lift up your eyes on high, and see who has created these, who brings out their host by number; he calls them all by name; by the greatness of his might, and because he is strong in power, not one is lacking.

Doesn't mention that the'll be in their place at their time. You're drawing on someone elses interpretation. This is the point - you can reinterpret poetic metaphor, ANY number of ways. 'Not one is lacking', lacking in what way? To me, its like fans disagreeing over what passages in Lord of the Rings means. Whatever, though I'm not satisfied, I don't find it that interesting (except in the sense of how unreliable it is as a science textbook), I'm more interested in the moral argument.



Nope, the conversation can't move forward if you're not acknowledging where you're going wrong. Which I'll show in a moment. I'm really going to have to insist that you give better answers on morality. I'd really like for us to concentrate on the morality question because its easy to show you're relying on presuppositions about the bible and not thinking it through.



You see how you just make an assertion? You just assert that god is righteous. You don't explain how you came to that conclusion. Perhaps if Hitler had won WWII there would be less war today - does that make Hitler's actions moral? And consider how much worse god's actions are, as described in the bible. He commands that children be murdered. He sends bears to kill children. He kills off the entire planet, all the people and all the animals, save for the few that are on the arc. Presumably you believe in hell? Eternal suffering and torment, infinite, for 'crimes' that can only be considered finite. How did you actually determine that god is good? I'm going to have to insist that you put some thought into this. Just asserting that god is righteous does not answer the question.

This video clip is good food for thought for anyone that thinks their god is moral, or that we have no right to judge the actions of god. The theist in this clip, in defence of god, tries to defend the position that it would be moral to send your children to the basement and torture them if they disobeyed or betrayed you. That IS the theist position in a nutshell, in regards to how god treats us.

[YT]JBBOYfvElLM[/YT]

Exodus 21 gives instructions on how you can keep control of your slave after six years of servitude.

How does it play out, when a theist tries to defend the bible as morally correct?

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I'm SURE what you're going to do, actually, is try to pretend it doesn't say what it says and come up with yet another re-interpretation. "Well maybe slave doesn't really mean this, and maybe when it says the master can keep the wife and children it means something else", go for it. I dare you to reinterpret it, to show us the kind of mental hoops you're willing to jump through in order to believe that an omnipotent god would be so damn incompetent as to have his only instruction manual be limited to a remote desert region, translated and re-translated and reinterpreted with no originals existing to the point that people can't even agree on what it says. Go for it.

And all the while, you'll still not answer how it is that you actually determined that god is good.

The mental hoops you have to jump through to defend this crap is extraordinary. The most likely explanation for these stories is staring you in the face. These stories are over 2000 years old, written by primitive, sometimes barbaric people, and that's it.




I've been through them, I've argued with creationists that have used their arguments many times. "Truth seeker", when you're confronted with the evidence that shows we have common descent with chimps, "after their kinds" as you understand it in genesis cannot be correct. Could the bible be wrong? Yes or no? Could it be wrong? Acknowledge that "after their kinds" is wrong based on our best understanding of the evidence, and then we can move on.

Maybe you should read actual science articles, and journal abstracts, from the people that actually do all of the leg work, from the people that actually make these discoveries. Instead of polluting your mind on creation sites from people that don't do the work, people insistent on forcing evidence to fit a conclusion instead of allowing evidence to lead them. It's apparent across creationist articles that the starting position is a literal interpretation of the bible and science cannot operate like that.



You'll pray for me, I'll think for you.

After reading your post, I'm still waiting for you to show me the assertions you said I make.

For example, the stars shall not fail from Isaiah 40:26. You mentioned not one would be lacking. Lacking in what. That they die? That's what you say just to deny scripture. You're not fooling anybody here except your fellow anti-Bible believers. You mentioned that I'm using someone else's interpretation. This right here shows how you've been faulty at your approach from the get -go. If you actually read my response, I showed you in this passage that I actually used scripture to tell me what It is saying. I mentioned the NIV version. Funny that you don't mention that in your post. By my saying they won't fail to be in their proper place at the proper time, sure you will find this said somewhere by others, too. But it is scripture that confirms this for me, not just somebody's statement. That's why I very clearly used the NIV translation to support my position. Obviously you're just trying to make it look like my argument is faulty when in fact you have been ignoring almost everything I have said. Here, let me show you a whole host of translations so you can see what is being said in Isaiah 40:26.

New International Version
Lift up your eyes and look to the heavens: Who created all these? He who brings out the starry host one by one and calls forth each of them by name. Because of his great power and mighty strength, not one of them is missing.

New Living Translation
Look up into the heavens. Who created all the stars? He brings them out like an army, one after another, calling each by its name. Because of his great power and incomparable strength, not a single one is missing.

English Standard Version
Lift up your eyes on high and see: who created these? He who brings out their host by number, calling them all by name, by the greatness of his might, and because he is strong in power not one is missing.

New American Standard Bible
Lift up your eyes on high And see who has created these stars, The One who leads forth their host by number, He calls them all by name; Because of the greatness of His might and the strength of His power, Not one of them is missing.

King James Bible
Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things, that bringeth out their host by number: he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that he is strong in power; not one faileth.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Look up and see: who created these? He brings out the starry host by number; He calls all of them by name. Because of His great power and strength, not one of them is missing.

International Standard Version
"Lift your eyes up to heaven and see who created all these— the one who leads out their vast array of stars by number, calling them all by name— because of his great might and his powerful strength — and not one is missing."

NET Bible
Look up at the sky! Who created all these heavenly lights? He is the one who leads out their ranks; he calls them all by name. Because of his absolute power and awesome strength, not one of them is missing.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Look at the sky and see. Who created these things? Who brings out the stars one by one? He calls them all by name. Because of the greatness of his might and the strength of his power, not one of them is missing.

Jubilee Bible 2000
Lift up your eyes on high and behold who has created these things; he brings out his host by number; he calls them all by their names; none shall be lacking by the greatness of his might and by the strength of his power.

King James 2000 Bible
Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who has created these things, that brings out their host by number: he calls them all by names by the greatness of his might, for he is strong in power; not one is missing.

American King James Version
Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who has created these things, that brings out their host by number: he calls them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that he is strong in power; not one fails.

American Standard Version
Lift up your eyes on high, and see who hath created these, that bringeth out their host by number; he calleth them all by name; by the greatness of his might, and for that he is strong in power, not one is lacking.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Lift up your eyes on high, and see who hath created these things: who bringeth out their host by number, and calleth them all by their names: by the greatness of his might, and strength, and power, not one of them was missing.

Darby Bible Translation
Lift up your eyes on high, and see! Who hath created these things, bringing out their host by number? He calleth them all by name; through the greatness of his might and strength of power, not one faileth.

English Revised Version
Lift up your eyes on high, and see who hath created these, that bringeth out their host by number: he calleth them all by name; by the greatness of his might, and for that he is strong in power, not one is lacking.

Webster's Bible Translation
Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things, that bringeth out their host by number: he calleth them all by names, by the greatness of his might, for that he is strong in power; not one faileth.

World English Bible
Lift up your eyes on high, and see who has created these, who brings out their army by number. He calls them all by name. by the greatness of his might, and because he is strong in power, Not one is lacking.

Young's Literal Translation
Lift up on high your eyes, And see -- who hath prepared these? He who is bringing out by number their host, To all of them by name He calleth, By abundance of strength (And he is strong in power) not one is lacking.

Notice all the "not one is missing." No, you probably won't because you refuse to believe the word of God. How is this saying "not one shall die?" Or how about "not one is lacking" that is used in some of the translations. Lacking in what? Lacking to be in place at their proper time fits perfectly. Especially when coupled with all the "not one is missing." I like to allow scripture to interpret scripture, something you won't do because you don't accept it to begin off with. We know the purpose of stars was to be set in place (Psalm 8:3) and their place as per God was to rule by night (Psalm 136:9). So we can see that by saying one will not fail, or lacking, or missing, it all has to do with being in their place at their time.

You mentioned you can't go on if I'm not acknowledging where I'm wrong... I'm still waiting for you to show me where I'm wrong. You use this argument only because you can't defend yourself against the word of God that I answered with to many of your "supposed" biblical wrongs. The psalmist in Psalm 10:4 was correct about you. But you will continue to receive my prayers.

Yes, God is righteous. Show me how he's not since you seem to be so keen on the idea that he isn't. If WW2 is a good thing and was for the better of mankind despite the high casualty rate of all ages, then why is God wrong for perhaps doing the same thing in his judgement?

As for the "after their kind" and how this can work in evolution, the changes between each individual generation would be so small that it would always be "after their kind." But due to no mention by God and the Adam and Eve account about new kinds or a new family, these changes will only be variations inside of the "kind" or "family." But by and of itself, "after their kinds" does not go against evolution.

A couple of things to continue to show how accurate scripture is (from a post before):

The Bible is full of amazing evidence that it's words are true and I hope you can see the beauty of it. If you're searching for the truth, I believe the Bible teaches it. Amen.

For the seeker of truth:

Romans 1:20 "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."

Psalm 14:1: "The fool says in his heart, "there is no God.""

Psalm 10:4 "In his pride the wicked man does not seek him in all his thoughts, there is no room for God."

As has been presented over the last couple of pages in this thread, one can see these scriptures "come to life" quite clearly by many in this thread. God has revealed things that show that his divine qualities are seen, but you need to look openly (and if you are an evolutionist, get out of the evolution box) and look at the world around you.

Israel is a skeptics worst nightmare. The fulfilled prophecies with that nation cannot be overlooked. If one overlooks Israel, then I would think that especially Romans 1:20 and Psalm 10:4 rings true for them. Israel is for real and she is of God.

http://www.watchmanbiblestudy.com/Ar...sFulfilled.htm

http://therefinersfire.org/recent_prophecy.htm


You can also see that events taking place in the world are as per scripture said they would be.

http://www.raptureforums.com/BiblePr...01lastdays.cfm


Many of these people here who I have debated with will deny the scriptures, that they are full of contradictions. But God is good and does answer many of these supposed contradictions.

2 Timothy 3:16: "All scripture is God breathed and is useful for teaching, correcting..."

http://thedevineevidence.com/skeptic...adictions.html

http://www.answersingenesis.org/arti...cripture-index

(This one has to do with creation-evolution) http://www.answersingenesis.org/get-...tering-critics

In Psalm 104:6-9, the passage does indeed say that the mountains rose after these mountains (land) were under water. After these mountains rise, scripture only then indicates that the flood waters will not be able to flood the earth anymore - that boundaries have been set - would it be these newly formed mountains and valleys that are the boundaries? Regardless of that, the real point I am making here is that the Bible got it correct that mountains were under water at some point just as evolution says. The rising of these mountains is after a time they were under water according to the scripture and the sea fossils we find on mountain tops confirm evolution's explanation of why we find sea fossils on mountain tops, at least to the point of mountains rising after being under water. The Bible really did get it right even despite evolutionists denial of the flood account, the idea that evolutionists will say that the mountains were under water is exactly what this scripture says.... oh, and scripture says it perhaps thousands of years before evolutionists found this to be true.



You said to end your note that you would think for me, then please start. In the mean time, Jesus loves you, too. And I say that sincerely!

 

[Shikamaru]

Uh, I have no words.

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[KevanG]

Well since it seems to you that god is always perfect no matter what anyone else says then it's clear that nothing anyone says will ever dissuade you of that notion. I for one figure that if he's encouraging us to commit war upon each other and use nuclear, chemical and biological weapons against each other in war and peace against both soldiers and civilians then you could never dissuade me in thinking that he is a total psychopath. Instead of nudging us towards peace and prosperity, he's made it so we've killed each other in the hundreds of millions in the last century using worse and worse weapons of destruction while encouraging us to commit terrorism on a global scale and murder each other over petty religious and political differences.

To me, that is not the sign of someone that loves us. That is the sign of something that hates us and wants us dead.

 

[rodhulk]

Funny you don't believe in God (or at least accept him) yet mention that you're going to blame him for the bad stuff. So, when things are all good in life, it has nothing to do with God but when it's all bad, he's to blame. Hmmmm.....

 

[KevanG]

I'm saying that if he exists and he's encouraging things like that to happen due to his big plan then he is the worst type of crazy. You yourself said that sometimes he decides that children should die because he says so and that it shouldn't be questioned.

I prefer the notion that it's all us and that we only have ourselves to blame because if there is something controlling us and making us do these things then that is terrifying.

 

[rodhulk]

Thing is, we always blame God and/or think God has no reason to do what he does when we brought it on ourselves. WW2 and 1 are great examples as to how even the worst of things can actually be for the better of mankind (our government is controlling us to a huge extent and is telling us - the soldiers who represent us as a nation - to do the acts of war that they do and have done). I believe God is doing/has done this, too.

 

[Feenix]

This is ridiculous. Rodhulk, you and Old Timer are getting destroyed in this thread. There are two scientists here who are picking apart your arguments with evidence and logic. You aren't getting anywhere.

By the way, I saw your condescending post in the JC thread. I think it's you that doesn't know the truth and cannot accept it.

 

[Feenix]

Thing is, we always blame God and/or think God has no reason to do what he does when we brought it on ourselves. WW2 and 1 are great examples as to how even the worst of things can actually be for the better of mankind. I believe God is doing/has done this, too.

We don't blame a god for anything because we don't believe in one.

And if you think world wars are good for mankind, you clearly don't have any grasp on history or politics. The fact that you're trying to defend an ogre of a god who commits mass murder is highly disturbing.

 

[KevanG]

Honestly I don't blame god for anything as I don't believe he exists. I prefer to blame humanity as that's the only way we'll fix anything. We can't rely on the magic man in the sky and ask him nicely to fix things since he's supposed to have an all knowing plan already in place. If we follow that logic then we'll never take control of our own lives as it'll always be 'in the plan' of whatever happens.

Honestly though if he does exist he needs to be medicated.

 

[Feenix]

If there is a god, I picture him to be similar to the one on Family Guy.

 

[rodhulk]

This is ridiculous. Rodhulk, you and Old Timer are getting destroyed in this thread. There are two scientists here who are picking apart your arguments with evidence and logic. You aren't getting anywhere.

By the way, I saw your condescending post in the JC thread. I think it's you that doesn't know the truth and cannot accept it.

Getting destroyed, by who? The only topic that these two "scientists" have even logically attempted with me is the "after their kinds." Every single other reference I've made to scripture and it's relation to science, such as the spreading out of the heavens by God which echo's the big bang's teaching of the same, or the mountains rising after being under water which echo's evolution's teaching on the topic..... hmmm... I don't see what you're saying. And Old Timer is doing just fine.

 

[rodhulk]

We don't blame a god for anything because we don't believe in one.

And if you think world wars are good for mankind, you clearly don't have any grasp on history or politics. The fact that you're trying to defend an ogre of a god who commits mass murder is highly disturbing.

If you don't believe in God, then how can you say he doesn't have a just cause for what he does.

As per the wars not being good for mankind, then you're saying we should never have gone to war with Japan and especially Germany?

 

[KevanG]

So WWII was a good thing due to the Holocaust, Nuclear weapons being used, Japanese internment camps, Nazism and genocide? Yeah sure, that was a great old time.

If you don't believe in God, then how can you say he doesn't have a just cause for what he does.

I may be misinterpreting this but are you saying he pulls this crap due to non-believers? Like he does it to get people to believe in him?

 

[Snow Queen]

If you don't believe in God, then how can you say he doesn't have a just cause for what he does.

You do realize what site you're on, right? I don't think people believe Superman exists, but there are pages and pages of discussions about if his resolution to the conflict in Man of Steel was the right thing to do.

 

[rodhulk]

So WWII was a good thing due to the Holocaust, Nuclear weapons being used, Japanese internment camps, Nazism and genocide? Yeah sure, that was a great old time.



I may be misinterpreting this but are you saying he pulls this crap due to non-believers? Like he does it to get people to believe in him?

While I know a lot of people debate on the pros and cons of WW2 and while I know how bad it was (you seem to think I don't consider that), I would ask if it is still in the long run better for the world? What would life be like today if Hitler had won because nobody (not just the US) had bothered to try to stop him?

What I'm saying about point 2 is that as a non-believer that doesn't even believe he exists, how can you really know the reason of a God and his actions if you don't even believe he exists in the first place?

 

[rodhulk]

You do realize what site you're on, right? I don't think people believe Superman exists, but there are pages and pages of discussions about if his resolution to the conflict in Man of Steel was the right thing to do.

You do realize the thread we're in? I believe in God literally.

 

[Snow Queen]

You do realize the thread we're in? I believe in God literally.

Good for you. And most people in this thread likely don't, pretty much making this to them (myself included) no different than debating Superman or any other fictional character. The point is that belief is not required for discussion.

 

[KevanG]

1) WWII was horrific and stupid in every aspect. So why is it a good thing that Hitler rose to power and initiated the whole shebang? If he was so evil and caused so much death, destruction and such atrocities why didn't god kill him as a child like you said he would others?

2) If his will is supposed to be unknowable how are you supposed to know in the first place?

 

[Shikamaru]

You do realize the thread we're in? I believe in God literally.

Great way to dodge the question.

 

[rodhulk]

Good for you. And most people in this thread likely don't, pretty much making this to them (myself included) no different than debating Superman or any other fictional character. The point is that belief is not required for discussion.

I would think it is elevated a little bit higher for many here if God exists. Plus, know this too, there are probably many casual viewers who may not have a position of belief yet or are lukewarm on one or the other. This is where there may be the greatest benefit, to those who are hungry for the truth.

 

[rodhulk]

1) WWII was horrific and stupid in every aspect. So why is it a good thing that Hitler rose to power and initiated the whole shebang? If he was so evil and caused so much death, destruction and such atrocities why didn't god kill him as a child like you said he would others?

2) If his will is supposed to be unknowable how are you supposed to know in the first place?

1) Yes, but you don't know if death and other horrific things would be even worse over the following decades after WW2. Those concentration camps probably would have continued.

2) God answers those who seek him. We don't have to know everything, that's what you guys seem to want. We just need to know enough and surely, praise God, he has provided... which is why the world is full of believers. God is good.

 

[Feenix]

I would think it is elevated a little bit higher for many here if God exists. Plus, know this too, there are probably many casual viewers who may not have a position of belief yet or are lukewarm on one or the other. This is where there may be the greatest benefit, to those who are hungry for the truth.

No one is going to come to this thread to believe in a god. They would go to the Jesus Christ thread.

And you aren't going to win anyone over with your "arguments." They fall flat, especially the science based ones.

The world is full of non believers, Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, and so on. Not everyone believes in your specific god. You're as likely to be right as a Muslim is (not very likely).

 

[KevanG]

1) Yes, but you don't know if death and other horrific things would be even worse over the following decades after WW2. Those concentration camps probably would have continued.

2) God answers those who seek him. We don't have to know everything, that's what you guys seem to want. We just need to know enough and surely, praise God, he has provided... which is why the world is full of believers. God is good.

1) The point is that you keep saying that he'll kill kids if he felt it was so needed if they were going to do evil crap in their future and yet he let Hitler and his inner circle gain power and do all of that for years and that led to millions of innocents being murdered in horrific ways. There seems to be no rhyme or reason for his persecution of people besides random chance which is exactly the same as if he didn't exist at all.

2) And what I'm saying is that no one should be relying on the magic sky being to give you answers. We always look for answers in science and what we know is never enough. That's the point of learning and growing beyond what we are. If we were fine with what we were then we'd be stuck back in hunter gatherer mode with very little agriculture and no society to speak of. We'd be getting wiped out by diseases and murdered by animals.

It's not a matter of wanting to know everything, it's a matter of growing up beyond what we were and being more than we are.

 

[Alex_Spider]

1) The point is that you keep saying that he'll kill kids if he felt it was so needed if they were going to do evil crap in their future and yet he let Hitler and his inner circle gain power and do all of that for years and that led to millions of innocents being murdered in horrific ways. There seems to be no rhyme or reason for his persecution of people besides random chance which is exactly the same as if he didn't exist at all.

2) And what I'm saying is that no one should be relying on the magic sky being to give you answers. We always look for answers in science and what we know is never enough. That's the point of learning and growing beyond what we are. If we were fine with what we were then we'd be stuck back in hunter gatherer mode with very little agriculture and no society to speak of. We'd be getting wiped out by diseases and murdered by animals.

It's not a matter of wanting to know everything, it's a matter of growing up beyond what we were and being more than we are.

I can't believe you 're still debating this whole god kills children to prevent future sins. Oh yeah, he didn't kill Hitler because he was too busy killing others that he missed him
Next time I hear on the news that people are dying somewhere in the world, I'll be cheering up and throw a party in His name.

 

[Hotwire]

Old Tinker, a couple questions for you.
1. Do you accept that the speed of light is 186,000 miles per second?
2. Do you accept that the stars are as far away as astronomers say they are?