The Atheism Thread - Part 7

[Marvolo]

I've known one guy who was sheltered by his parents so much that he went nuts when he finally lived on his own. He drank and partied all the time and it was terrible for him since he had no way to control himself from it.

It happened to a number of kids that went to my school. They got out from under their parents and went wild.

 

[MrsKent26]

It is but successful indoctrination at a young age can overcome those issues.

Take this for example, i went to school with a number of fundamentalist kids. Their parents censored their books and media intake. Everything they read or watched had to be check by their parents even until they moved out of their parents house which was after 18 in most cases. They werent allowed to look into other religions or anything that might weaken their faith. It was a total bubble around their life. So then these kids grow up and do the same thing to their kids. The modern world just doesnt get inside the bubble because the world is evil and cant be trusted.

Here is a perfect example of brainwashing, courtesy of Jehovah's Witnesses:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qfq4ZFY6WG4

Truly unfortunate. I do not agree with stuff like that. People should be taught both approaches and allowed to make up their own minds when they are able to do so.

I am an atheist who lives for today, not longing for an afterlife. It's down to us, it always has been.

People ask what I believe in. I reply with myself and common human decency.

Very nice attitude to have.

 

[KevanG]

Truly unfortunate. I do not agree with stuff like that. People should be taught both approaches and allowed to make up their own minds when they are able to do so.

Look MrsK you can't just let people see both sides of an issue and let them make up their own minds. If you do that then you'll never have your own cult.

 

[MrsKent26]

Look MrsK you can't just let people see both sides of an issue and let them make up their own minds. If you do that then you'll never have your own cult.

Well damn. I always wanted my own cult that worships Henry Cavill. Perhaps children should only be allowed to look at images of him and play with "Cavill as Superman" figures?

 

[Picard Sisko]

Truly unfortunate. I do not agree with stuff like that. People should be taught both approaches and allowed to make up their own minds when they are able to do so.

It basically goes against the concept of critical thinking. Basically once you start asking questioning their religion, you're going against Jehovah. Don't question, don't critique, just follow.

 

[KevanG]

Well you have the batboards, does that count? They come already brainwashed but need supervision.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Think about how people act over Supermans underwear and imagine if they had guns and were in the same room. That's how that works.

This mirrors my thoughts exactly. The mythology of Gods and the mythology of superheroes have so very many similarities. The difference is that with one, an individual is aware of the human made nature of it. Even knowing that, look at how heated the conversations get about superheroes. It's all about belief.

 

[rodhulk]

Hmm. Well, I guess I can brush it aside. I think people see what they want to see with regards to the Bible. However, I do thank you for taking the time to respond anyways.

rodhulk, I have never said that I was interested in joining you. I've said from the start I've been trying to figure out where your head is on various topics. I've been responding to your various answers to both myself and others here with my own points and when requesting serious rebuttals you post things like that where you just tell us we aren't interested. We're just asking for some sort of solid tangible evidence in order to consider your position valid.

The issue we have with blind faith in religion is that there is almost nothing besides generic prophecies which can and have been attributed to hundreds of various phenomena over the centuries which is every bit as valid as today. Take the blood moon that so many people and news articles claimed to represent the 'end times' and yet that is a naturally occurring phenomena that has happened for centuries and will continue to do so and yet, it's listed in the bible as a sign of the end times. There isn't even a consensus within the church itself anymore as to it being a global flood or a local one.

As we continue in our study of the universe, religions that hold to a creator god are able to come up with less and less answers to what we are able to observe. The books that were written thousands of years ago for a simpler people just don't have the answers beyond basic morality and even then the conventions of the time are much different today. Compare what they say even from the OT to the NT and what the NT says in it's entirety (no skipping) and see what would be considered illegal or immoral today. Things change and things have changed more in the last century than in the previous two millennia, there's just no way that they could have expected such changes and it shows.

I never said anything about you joining me, rather, perhaps you were speaking in a more open mind. About all these more modern changes you mention over the last century as compared to the previous two millennia and why the Bible and it's "old" stories do not stand today, there is actually a prophecy about increased knowledge for the end times so you actually hit a prophecy bang on! And the Bible is completely relevant today as it was before. Example, so many of man's laws today are the same as God's laws that were given several millennia ago.

I didn't "post to you," at least not until you "post[ed] to" me. At this point you come off as antagonistic and more than a little childish.

You either posted to me or mentioned my name. But now this is childish....hmmmm......

No it hasn't. ALL you've demonstrated is that you're willing to make massive leaps in logic, to make the bible fit with science.



It's basic logic. I don't know how else to put it. You're not even addressing the other interpretations put forward. You're not addressing the logical, philosophical argument of Occam's Razor. You are cutting yourself on Occam's Razor when you insist Job 9:8 is a reference to the big bang.

You seemingly do not care about whether or not your position is logical. You're literally willing to leap to the belief that contains the most assumptions, which is illogical.





What exactly do you think this sentence means?


It seems like you're saying that "you can't prove my interpretation wrong".

I'm pretty sure I've already pointed out to you that this is a logical fallacy called the Argument from Ignorance.

If you're interested in truth and your arguments leading to truth, you have to care about whether or not your arguments are logical. They're not. Take the time to learn about logical fallacies.


Here's the thing Rodhulk. It should be trivial for you to understand why your conclusion about Job 9:8 is a massive leap in logic. But you keep holding to your interpretation as though its fact. It should be trivial to accept that there could be other interpretations with less assumptions, but you keep denying logic to hold onto conclusions with massive assumptions built in.

Face it. You're a fundamentalist. If you can't accept basic logic on such a trivial passage, you're a lost cause.

If I'm a lost cause then why do you continue to post to me? Perhaps I am taking a massive leap in logic but ditto for you when you reject the possibility that the Bible may be speaking on the same idea of things expanding/spreading out as the big bang. But I don't believe the Bible teaches the big bang. You keep saying that. I believe that God literally spread out the universe and this "expansion" of planets and perhaps other things is what science sees. But science takes an alternative route than the Bible in explaining how it all went down. However, Gods handiwork is visible about the universe being spread out or expanded. But I don't expect you to accept it as per Romans 1:18-20. But perhaps the reason you keep posting to me is because God wants you to see something. I believe with God, everything is possible.

'Stretching out the heavens' = reference to big bang.

Assumption.

This is a reference to a specific event in reality.

Assumption.

This referenced event is cosmological.

Assumption.

This referenced event took place 13 billion years ago.

Assumption.

This referenced event is the super-dense state of the universe, when the universe was tinier than the objects sitting on your desk.

Assumption.

This referenced event is the explosion and expansion of the universe from its super-dense state.

Assumption.

This event, along with gravity, is what lead to the formation of elements and stars, curiously left out of the description in Job 9:8 along with other key descriptions of the big bang.

Assumption.

This referenced event refers to the cosmological model of the universe that wouldn't be theorized or understood or have would not have any observational evidence for it until the 20th century.



This referenced event contradicts literal interpretations of the bible that held very different models of the universe centuries earlier than the theorization of the big bang.

OR

'Stretches out the heavens' is a metaphor for the power of god.

AND/OR

'Stretches out the heavens' is based on the simple observation for how the sky looks at night, and how the sky looks when you look at it from horizon to horizon.

I suppose I like #1 (for the beginning of the universe - that it had a beginning) and #5 (because of the "expansion" you mentioned which is the spreading out that God did - however, I doubt God did it as per the theory of the big bang. Creationist scientists explain it differently than what the big bang theory says).

About the "stretching out the heavens" you mentioned to end your post, the wording of the scripture is that through God's creative work, he placed/moved/spread out everything so that the final result is as you say, we can see God's handiwork from a simple observation of the sky.

It's because we believe we're correct, rodhulk.

Our beliefs make sense. We don't need to open our minds and "seek the truth" because we already do that. We simply don't believe in something that we've never seen for ourselves or felt any impact from whatsoever.

You don't have to see God to believe in him just like you (as an evolutionists, I assume) don't have to see everything answered in the theory of evolution to believe in it. As per believing in god, there are many other ways and I've provided that with my often copied and pasted post on how to find God.

 

[MrsKent26]

It basically goes against the concept of critical thinking. Basically once you start asking questioning their religion, you're going against Jehovah. Don't question, don't critique, just follow.

It stunts a person's intellectual growth. It's a good thing it doesn't happen to every one.

Well you have the batboards, does that count? They come already brainwashed but need supervision.

Not as fun. I want a cult of my choosing. Lord Cavill is the one, true way.

 

[Picard Sisko]

Well you have the batboards, does that count? They come already brainwashed but need supervision.

I never go on the bat boards anymore so I can't imagine what it is like there anymore.

 

[KevanG]

I never said anything about you joining me, rather, perhaps you were speaking in a more open mind. About all these more modern changes you mention over the last century as compared to the previous two millennia and why the Bible and it's "old" stories do not stand today, there is actually a prophecy about increased knowledge for the end times so you actually hit a prophecy bang on! And the Bible is completely relevant today as it was before. Example, so many of man's laws today are the same as God's laws that were given several millennia ago.

So a prophecy said that we'd learn more as time went on? That is so freaking obvious it's beyond common sense. That's as much a divine prophecy as cooking a pizza and saying there will be cheese on it.

Mans laws today? Like don't kill each other? Don't steal? Things that have been considered commonplace since we were cavemen? Things that even animals don't like to happen?

These prophecies you insist on telling us are happening have been attributed to thousands of various things over the millennia and will continue to be attributed to things for years to come. Look at those saying the recent 'blood moon' was a foretelling of the end times. It's in the bible too! Hey, look at this! It tells you how often it happens throughout the centuries.

the redness of the Moon is simply due to the scattering of sunlight through the Earth’s atmosphere. Incidentally, this redness can vary considerably due to the amount of dust, ash, and particulate aerosols aloft in the Earth’s atmosphere, resulting in anything from a bright cherry red eclipse during totality to an eclipsed Moon almost disappearing from view altogether… but it’s well understood by science and not at all supernatural.

Well look at that. It says it's a regular astrological occurrence. That's not much of a prophecy if it's not something special beyond not happening that often. We can even chart how often it will happen and within a few days centuries on advance. Which one will the end times happen on?

The bible is relevant as a basic moral aid when not taken as literal truth.

 

[The End]

Isn't confirmation bias awesome?

"You keep replying to me - I guess its 'cause god wants you to"

I'm just not egocentric enough to believe that.

Oh, to have a world view where everything and anything can be evidence of the work of god And that the most powerful being ever is specifically interested in me, and my discussion on a superhero forum.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

To me, my atheism boils down to this.

Dogs can't comprehend calculus problems.

Similarly, humans can't comprehend their conscious existence ending. Thus, people turn to religion because they want to believe their existence will continue after they die. Their existence is everything and they can't accept that at one point in the future they will be as inanimate and lifeless as their coffee table. The lie that life continues after death gives them comfort and makes them feel as if everything isn't ultimately futile.

But it is. Wallstreet banker or homeless bum or sewer rat, we'll all be the same dust in the wind one day.

I think when a truth is uncomfortable or depressing, people recoil and resist it, and the implication that our entire existence will come to a screeching halt one day is the most uncomfortable truth of all. But hey, science.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

In fairness, the idea of simply stopping is not a nice one. Everything you ever experienced will never be remembered, even by you, because there will be nothing to carry the function of memory.

It's understandable people want comfort against that idea.

Conversely, if you really think about Heaven, it's equally horrible. We've all chosen our hells, we should try and get along while we're on Earth.

 

[Marvolo]

To me, my atheism boils down to this.

Dogs can't comprehend calculus problems.

Similarly, humans can't comprehend their conscious existence ending. Thus, people turn to religion because they want to believe their existence will continue after they die. Their existence is everything and they can't accept that at one point in the future they will be as inanimate and lifeless as their coffee table. The lie that life continues after death gives them comfort and makes them feel as if everything isn't ultimately futile.

But it is. Wallstreet banker or homeless bum or sewer rat, we'll all be the same dust in the wind one day.

I think when a truth is uncomfortable or depressing, people recoil and resist it, and the implication that our entire existence will come to a screeching halt one day is the most uncomfortable truth of all. But hey, science.

This post sums it up perfectly.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

In fairness, the idea of simply stopping is not a nice one. Everything you ever experienced will never be remembered, even by you, because there will be nothing to carry the function of memory.

It's understandable people want comfort against that idea.

Conversely, if you really think about Heaven, it's equally horrible. We've all chosen our hells, we should try and get along while we're on Earth.

In fairness, "fairness" is a human concept, not a scientific one. And that's the problem. People WANT the natural order to mirror the self-importance they've placed on their lives.

We are all heading for the same depressing ending. I don't believe anyone dies peacefully. I think some people may die quietly, but dying, the systematic shut-down of your brain and organs, will absolutely be the worst thing that happens to any of us and the very last thing as well.

So yes, I agree with you. It's a comforting lie to make people feel better. I think the desire for some kind of eternal life is the primary factor in driving people to believe in God.

 

[Marvolo]

In fairness, "fairness" is a human concept, not a scientific one. And that's the problem. People WANT the natural order to mirror the self-importance they've placed on their lives.

We are all heading for the same depressing ending. I don't believe anyone dies peacefully. I think some people may die quietly, but dying, the systematic shut-down of your brain and organs, will absolutely be the worst thing that happens to any of us and the very last thing as well.

So yes, I agree with you. It's a comforting lie to make people feel better. I think the desire for some kind of eternal life is the primary factor in driving people to believe in God.

Ive died and been revived and it was very peaceful for me. My last thought while I was in the Recovery Ward post op was how safe I was with the nurses then my eyes got heavy and I went to sleep. Next day I woke up and it felt like a horse had kicked me in the chest. At some point after they got me back to my room from the Recovery Ward I stopped breathing and my heart stopped but I wasnt hooked up to any monitering equipment so no one knew until they saw my lips turning black. It was due to an overdose of medication and narcotics administered in too short a time. They had given me morphine, hydromorphone, oxycodone, promethazine, and anesthesia in a space of about three hours. I was in the hospital having emergency surgery for a gunshot wound so I was already low on blood and going through a traumatic experience. That plus the meds caused my body to shut down. It wasnt scary or painful tho. It was like going to sleep after a very long and tiring day. Just peaceful oblivion.

People fear death, but death is peacful. Dying on the other hand can be messy and painful. I just hope the next time I die that its as peaceful as the first time was.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

Damn dude, that's pretty hardcore. Well, at least on that point, I stand corrected. Glad you're okay.

 

[SV Fan]

To me, my atheism boils down to this.

Dogs can't comprehend calculus problems.

Similarly, humans can't comprehend their conscious existence ending. Thus, people turn to religion because they want to believe their existence will continue after they die. Their existence is everything and they can't accept that at one point in the future they will be as inanimate and lifeless as their coffee table. The lie that life continues after death gives them comfort and makes them feel as if everything isn't ultimately futile.

But it is. Wallstreet banker or homeless bum or sewer rat, we'll all be the same dust in the wind one day.

I think when a truth is uncomfortable or depressing, people recoil and resist it, and the implication that our entire existence will come to a screeching halt one day is the most uncomfortable truth of all. But hey, science.

Their is always reincarnation, you don't need a god for that :P

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

No such thing, either. Sorry.

 

[jaymes_e06]

This image kind of contradicts itself doesn't it? To say someone has to look at the Bible to reinforce their atheism... The point of atheism is to not believe in the bible or it's teachings and find things out on your own soo...

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

Is that what the picture's saying? I took it to mean that people who read the Bible only cling to the passages they believe in, for example like using it as a tool to condemn homosexuality, but conveniently neglecting the passages about divorce. So it becomes a reflection of their pre-existing beliefs rather than a scripture they slavishly follow…. hence the concept of "God" is just a vehicle for you to express what you already feel. Maybe I misinterpreted it and you're right. I don't think it was as clever or clear as it probably wanted to be.

 

[Feenix]

"God" is a reflection of mankind. We created him in our image. An all knowing, loving, benevolent being would not conjure up a flood to wipe out the majority of humanity, it would not order people to be killed in its name, it would not condemn people for being who it created them to be. A god that commits these acts is more human than it is godly, in other words, man thought up these acts and attributed them to a god to try and justify and make sense of them.

 

[redhawk23]

I don't see how that picture's message is for atheists at all.

 

[redhawk23]

"God" is a reflection of mankind. We created him in our image. An all knowing, loving, benevolent being would not conjure up a flood to wipe out the majority of humanity, it would not order people to be killed in its name, it would not condemn people for being who it created them to be. A god that commits these acts is more human than it is godly, in other words, man thought up these acts and attributed them to a god to try and justify and make sense of them.

Most of the more horrendous acts attributed to God comes from the Old testament, which comes from an earlier time in which gods were often just as petty and violent as humans. These conceptions acknowledge that bad, seemingly random things happen and that perhaps higher beings don't have your best interest at heart. Look at a lot of the oldest traditions and this is fairly consistent. Also, in a lot of the older traditions and mythologies, conceptions of the after life tend to be pretty bleak, rather than offering much of a reward.

The God of the New Testament, written thousands of years later, is constructed around a new trend of belief in benevolence, as offering salvation.