The Batman vs The Dark Knight

[BobJM]

I loved The Batman, but I think it’s The Dark Knight for me. The movie still cooks—it is just relentless from the get-go. Whereas The Batman is a slow-burn, for better or worse, and the story unfolds at a slower pace whereas TDK grabs you from the Joker prologue and doesn’t let go until the credits roll.

But as a Batman story, I like Batman Begins the most lol. So who knows?!

 

[JackWhite]

TDK just had that extra gear for me. I can't quite quantify exactly what that gear is, but it had it in spades. Maybe it was the threat of the Joker. It really made you feel that Batman just might not be able to stop him, even with Gordon and Dent's help. I remember the sheer panic felt on the screen when Joker threatened to blow up a hospital. The civilian who shot at Reece while he's being escorted out of the hospital; then he's immediately tackled by the police, that **** was nuts. Then all the stuff with the ferryboats and the final standoff between Batman, Gordon and Two-Face.

The Batman comes really close for me. I've only seen it twice, but I really do adore that film. It's only going to get better with more viewings. That I am certain of.

 

[C Prometheus]

The Dark Knight isn't the better "film." It's the better blockbuster.

There is absolutely a difference between those measures and that's something I think is worth keeping in mind. And mind you, both films are phenomenal films and Batman stories, plus The Dark Knight certainly has merit in its place in film history as being a watershed moment for the superhero genre. Everyone pointing out that we wouldn't have The Batman today without the success of TDK first is completely correct.

But the better film? I think that's very much up for debate here.

The Dark Knight's biggest strengths are its blistering pacing, the big set pieces and particularly the performances from Heath Ledger and Aaron Eckhart. That isn't to act as if the film doesn't do anything else really well, but those three points are the big crux that stood out to me on my most recent watch of the film a few weeks ago ahead of seeing The Batman for the first time.

Those two performances in particular really help audiences not focus too hard on the inherent silliness of the "Two Boats" plan that Joker's wrapping up his side of the film on. Without the final reveal that Joker was always betting on breaking Harvey and sending him on the path of ruining his status as the city's White Knight and the final confrontation between Bruce, Gordon and Dent, TDK would end on a far poorer note.

Meanwhile, The Batman rather deliberately takes its time. It's a bit longer than TDK too, so more audiences are likely to feel that runtime and pacing here. Especially in an age where the vast majority of big tentpole films are paced quickly, while slower/more deliberately paced films are typically released as indie films now.

But as far as the actual directing goes? Big set-pieces aren't all there is to being a great director. And Nolan is a great director and has plenty of little jewels in his directing crown. The best scene in TDK isn't the highway chase or the strike in Hong Kong or Batman taking down the SWAT team, it's the Interrogation Scene.

But as far as directing goes, I think Reeves absolutely dunked on the overwhelming majority of comic book movies with The Batman from start to finish.

The film isn't perfect and there's clunky elements that can be improved- but little moments such as both the Riddler and Batman's first appearances in the film, Pattinson's consistently visible discomfort and outright panic growing over the course of several bridging scenes when the case swerves closer and closer home, the growing anxiety and tension of Gil Coulson's "trial" all playing out in real time? Or how about Batman's first brawl to get into the Iceberg Lounge?

There's all sorts of little moments and extended sequences in The Batman where the attention to detail across the board from the acting, the cinematography and sound design all are working in tandem in more elaborate and complex ways than we typically see for this genre of filmmaking. The budgeting and IP franchise nature obviously puts The Batman in a notably different part of the industry than indie darlings from A24 like Ari Aster's Hereditary, Robert Eggers' The Lighthouse or David Lowery's The Green Knight or even the international masterworks of yesteryear from directors like Ingmar Bergman, Akira Kurosawa or Andrei Tarkovsky... but the technical craftsmanship on display in this film is much closer to those sorts of films IMO.

Five years ago, Reeves made a very high bar of measure for himself when he said his intention for The Batman was to make something that felt Hitchcockian in how the use of the camera would lock audiences in with Bruce Wayne's perspective as he tried to solve a crime. And he absolutely succeeded.

Does that mean The Batman is the better film than The Dark Knight? I think that's still subjective, because the sort of film it is happens to be an inherently trickier pill to swallow for moviegoers than TDK is. Like I said, The Dark Knight is absolutely the better blockbuster. But the better "film" is a harder bar to decide, and for my money, I'd vote for The Batman.

 

[BatLobster]

The Dark Knight isn't the better "film." It's the better blockbuster.

There is absolutely a difference between those measures and that's something I think is worth keeping in mind. And mind you, both films are phenomenal films and Batman stories, plus The Dark Knight certainly has merit in its place in film history as being a watershed moment for the superhero genre. Everyone pointing out that we wouldn't have The Batman today without the success of TDK first is completely correct.

But the better film? I think that's very much up for debate here.

The Dark Knight's biggest strengths are its blistering pacing, the big set pieces and particularly the performances from Heath Ledger and Aaron Eckhart. That isn't to act as if the film doesn't do anything else really well, but those three points are the big crux that stood out to me on my most recent watch of the film a few weeks ago ahead of seeing The Batman for the first time.

Those two performances in particular really help audiences not focus too hard on the inherent silliness of the "Two Boats" plan that Joker's wrapping up his side of the film on. Without the final reveal that Joker was always betting on breaking Harvey and sending him on the path of ruining his status as the city's White Knight and the final confrontation between Bruce, Gordon and Dent, TDK would end on a far poorer note.

Meanwhile, The Batman rather deliberately takes its time. It's a bit longer than TDK too, so more audiences are likely to feel that runtime and pacing here. Especially in an age where the vast majority of big tentpole films are paced quickly, while slower/more deliberately paced films are typically released as indie films now.

But as far as the actual directing goes? Big set-pieces aren't all there is to being a great director. And Nolan is a great director and has plenty of little jewels in his directing crown. The best scene in TDK isn't the highway chase or the strike in Hong Kong or Batman taking down the SWAT team, it's the Interrogation Scene.

But as far as directing goes, I think Reeves absolutely dunked on the overwhelming majority of comic book movies with The Batman from start to finish.

The film isn't perfect and there's clunky elements that can be improved- but little moments such as both the Riddler and Batman's first appearances in the film, Pattinson's consistently visible discomfort and outright panic growing over the course of several bridging scenes when the case swerves closer and closer home, the growing anxiety and tension of Gil Coulson's "trial" all playing out in real time? Or how about Batman's first brawl to get into the Iceberg Lounge?

There's all sorts of little moments and extended sequences in The Batman where the attention to detail across the board from the acting, the cinematography and sound design all are working in tandem in more elaborate and complex ways than we typically see for this genre of filmmaking. The budgeting and IP franchise nature obviously puts The Batman in a notably different part of the industry than indie darlings from A24 like Ari Aster's Hereditary, Robert Eggers' The Lighthouse or David Lowery's The Green Knight or even the international masterworks of yesteryear from directors like Ingmar Bergman, Akira Kurosawa or Andrei Tarkovsky... but the technical craftsmanship on display in this film is much closer to those sorts of films IMO.

Five years ago, Reeves made a very high bar of measure for himself when he said his intention for The Batman was to make something that felt Hitchcockian in how the use of the camera would lock audiences in with Bruce Wayne's perspective as he tried to solve a crime. And he absolutely succeeded.

Does that mean The Batman is the better film than The Dark Knight? I think that's still subjective, because the sort of film it is happens to be an inherently trickier pill to swallow for moviegoers than TDK is. Like I said, The Dark Knight is absolutely the better blockbuster. But the better "film" is a harder bar to decide, but for my money, I'd vote for The Batman.

They're apples and oranges in so many ways. While I feel TDK is simply a more culturally significant film at the moment (ask me again in a decade when The Batman's legacy is more clear), I wouldn't go to the mat saying I think it's "objectively" better. I don't really believe in that. I think objective analysis only gets us so far when it comes to film criticism. We can pinpoint technique and individual well-executed (or not well-executed) moments all day, but eventually it has to coalesce into something that we have an emotional response to. So of course, it's subjective.

For me though, TDK just has this thing where it feels greater than the sum of its parts. And my feeling with The Batman it's jam-packed with so many great individual things, details, directorial touches that it's almost ridiculous....but somehow, it ends up feeling a bit less than the sum of its parts for me. I'm left with the feeling that this would've worked better as a miniseries than it does as a movie. Like somehow there's either too much of it, or not enough. I do think TDK is a stronger screenplay. IMO, it's got a stronger, clearer central theme and overall story. It's got an absolute classic ending, one that feels surprising yet inevitable. There are big emotional journeys for multiple characters. I think the action sequences feel more organically woven into the story. I don't want to make it sound like I'm contradicting myself-- this isn't me saying I think it's "objectively" better. But if I were to debate it, I do feel that it has legitimate strengths over TB beyond obvious stuff like Heath Ledger's performance or in terms of simply comparing them as blockbusters.

 

[C Prometheus]

They're apples and oranges in so many ways. While I feel TDK is simply a more culturally significant film at the moment (ask me again in a decade when The Batman's legacy is more clear), I wouldn't go to the mat saying I think it's "objectively" better. I don't really believe in that. I think objective analysis only gets us so far when it comes to film criticism. We can pinpoint technique and individual well-executed (or not well-executed) moments all day, but eventually it has to coalesce into something that we have an emotional response to. So of course, it's subjective.

For me though, TDK just has this thing where it feels greater than the sum of its parts. And my feeling with The Batman it's jam-packed with many great individual things, details, directorial touches that it's almost ridiculous....but somehow, it ends up feeling a bit less than the sum of its parts for me. I'm left with the feeling that this would've worked better as a miniseries than it does as a movie. Like somehow there's either too much of it, or not enough. I do think TDK is a stronger screenplay. IMO, it's got a stronger, clearer central theme and overall story. It's got an absolute classic ending, one that feels surprising yet inevitable. There are big emotional journeys for multiple characters. I think the action sequences feel more organically woven into the story. I don't want to make it sound like I'm contradicting myself-- this isn't me saying I think it's "objectively" better. But if I were to debate it, I do feel that it has legitimate strengths over TB beyond obvious stuff like Heath Ledger's performance or in terms of simply comparing them as blockbusters.

Like you said, it really is a comparison of apples and oranges. Honestly the discussion between these two films really reminds me of the debates I have as an Alien fan between ALIEN and Aliens. Both films are phenomenal and achieve what they set out to do with generally flying colors and which you prefer often comes down to personal preferences. I'd say that none of these films are perfect, but then I'd run the risk of lying, because damn if I'm not struggling like hell to think of any real faults with ALIEN.

Hell, it's especially weird for me because I personally would love to throw Batman Returns into the mix too. That film speaks to me in a big way, warts and all. I might even prefer it over TDK, though I definitely think TDK has a stronger 'objective' argument generally compared to it.

But back to the topic at hand; TDK vs The Batman.

Like I said in my last post, the three big points I listed earlier aren't the only things going for TDK. It's a legitimately great film, it's just that those three points really stand out and as I try to look at the film with an earnest eye. For example, I really think the pacing and insane acting from both Ledger and Eckhart mostly do wonders for 'covering up' the flaws for a big chunk of the film's third act and then sliding on upward into something insanely special with the film's closing minutes.

Joker's "Two Boats" plan feels really clunky these days and kind of carries a sense of "College Student's First Time in Philosophy 101." On top of that, while the film's fiery pacing has that big action sequence of Batman taking down the SWAT team and Joker's goons fly by so quickly that you aren't thinking too hard about the philosophy scenario, it also becomes kind of easy to miss that not only are the hostages and Joker's gang are disguised as one another, but that the hostages are people that Joker took from the hospital earlier in the film.

Which is kind of important for audiences to remember, since that's the whole reason why Gordon is so on edge before he gets the phone call that sets up the film's ending. He feels guilty for Harvey and feels like he NEEDS to save Harvey (who he thinks is among the hostages) to redeem himself, so much so that his emotions are blinding him to Bruce's point about how things are never this simple with the Joker.

Ultimately, we look back on TDK's ending so fondly because the film brilliantly does a 180 from there. By scaling downwards and simplifying the conclusion to "just" a standoff between three friends and where the story has led them each respectively and the consequences that ensue from that confrontation, TDK sends audiences out with a home run.

But looking at it as a whole, I do think The Batman has a stronger third act across the board. Its actual ending might not be quite the adrenaline high that TDK's is, but the overall construction of its sequences all feeding into Bruce having the inherent flaws and dangers that his current methods carry exposed to him plain as day and the realization of how he needs to change if he really wants to make a difference for Gotham feel more organic and a natural progression from beat to beat to beat as we get to that quiet, bittersweet ending.

However, like I said before, The Batman has its flaws too!

Most notably, the very abrupt chain in the later parts of the film's second act suddenly throwing in and resolving the subplot of Bruce finding out about the skeletons in his parents' closet. We can debate either which way how far Reeves should have gone with Thomas' dealings with Falcone and who told the truth, but the fact that it practically leaps into the movie out of nowhere and then resolves itself just as quickly with hardly any time to let that information really sink in and reflect for Bruce is a weakness.

That element needed to play out more like Peter's struggles in the middle of Spider-Man 2, IMO. Give Bruce more time to really absorb this information and how others' reactions feed into that revelation.

Either way, like we both agree, this is a matter of apples versus oranges.

 

[FunkMiller]

Honestly I don't think it's fair to compare any other comic book movie to The Dark Knight. It's become such a cultural touchstone, with an influence that exceeds just about every other movie put out in the last twenty years.

Nolan gave us something truly unique and original at the time: a mature comic book movie, with a story, a structure, a tone, and characterisations that transcended the genre from which they came.

The simple fact is The Batman couldn't exist without The Dark Knight, because The Dark Knight laid the groundwork that allows films like The Batman to be made.

It's no exaggeration to suggest that The Dark Knight gave the rest of Hollywood permission to treat comic book movie characters seriously for the first time. To invest in more than just silly costumes, and special effects. Without its influence, there's no MCU. There's no Hollywood the way it exists today.

It's transcendent.

A much fairer comparison would be The Batman vs Batman Begins.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

Since my sense of logic doesn't work well at all with the grounded and serious setting of TDK mixed with how the Joker isn't written as intelligent but rather have plot armor that allows him to make plans that he has little control over, and has to have his opposition to act uncharacteristically bad, I'm one that doesn't enjoy that as much as most others.

The Batman generally doesn't have that issue. The Riddler operates mostly withing reasonable means and does seem intelligent, so it's a case of where the execution of the idea of the character just is better. Since I don't buy Two-Face in TDK at all the Riddler is better than him for me as well.

I prefer Batman in The Batman and while both have plenty of good characters I don't think the film has any that I just don't get into at all, like with Rachel in TDK.

The Batman does veer into being a bit silly at times in the beginning, with the dark, emo and macho things being a bit too much, but it goes away and I don't think it was any worse than the Batman voice in TDK.

Granted I've seen TDK a few more times than The Batman so in part it could be a case of where I just know all the plot holes and conveniences better of the former, but as it stands now I think a big part of it comes down to the same reason I think Begins is better than TDK. TDK is the more ambitious film but both Begins and The Batman actually execute their visions better.

 

[BMW 224]

Like you said, it really is a comparison of apples and oranges. Honestly the discussion between these two films really reminds me of the debates I have as an Alien fan between ALIEN and Aliens. Both films are phenomenal and achieve what they set out to do with generally flying colors and which you prefer often comes down to personal preferences. I'd say that none of these films are perfect, but then I'd run the risk of lying, because damn if I'm not struggling like hell to think of any real faults with ALIEN.

Hell, it's especially weird for me because I personally would love to throw Batman Returns into the mix too. That film speaks to me in a big way, warts and all. I might even prefer it over TDK, though I definitely think TDK has a stronger 'objective' argument generally compared to it.

But back to the topic at hand; TDK vs The Batman.

Like I said in my last post, the three big points I listed earlier aren't the only things going for TDK. It's a legitimately great film, it's just that those three points really stand out and as I try to look at the film with an earnest eye. For example, I really think the pacing and insane acting from both Ledger and Eckhart mostly do wonders for 'covering up' the flaws for a big chunk of the film's third act and then sliding on upward into something insanely special with the film's closing minutes.

Joker's "Two Boats" plan feels really clunky these days and kind of carries a sense of "College Student's First Time in Philosophy 101." On top of that, while the film's fiery pacing has that big action sequence of Batman taking down the SWAT team and Joker's goons fly by so quickly that you aren't thinking too hard about the philosophy scenario, it also becomes kind of easy to miss that not only are the hostages and Joker's gang are disguised as one another, but that the hostages are people that Joker took from the hospital earlier in the film.

Which is kind of important for audiences to remember, since that's the whole reason why Gordon is so on edge before he gets the phone call that sets up the film's ending. He feels guilty for Harvey and feels like he NEEDS to save Harvey (who he thinks is among the hostages) to redeem himself, so much so that his emotions are blinding him to Bruce's point about how things are never this simple with the Joker.

Ultimately, we look back on TDK's ending so fondly because the film brilliantly does a 180 from there. By scaling downwards and simplifying the conclusion to "just" a standoff between three friends and where the story has led them each respectively and the consequences that ensue from that confrontation, TDK sends audiences out with a home run.

But looking at it as a whole, I do think The Batman has a stronger third act across the board. Its actual ending might not be quite the adrenaline high that TDK's is, but the overall construction of its sequences all feeding into Bruce having the inherent flaws and dangers that his current methods carry exposed to him plain as day and the realization of how he needs to change if he really wants to make a difference for Gotham feel more organic and a natural progression from beat to beat to beat as we get to that quiet, bittersweet ending.

However, like I said before, The Batman has its flaws too!

Most notably, the very abrupt chain in the later parts of the film's second act suddenly throwing in and resolving the subplot of Bruce finding out about the skeletons in his parents' closet. We can debate either which way how far Reeves should have gone with Thomas' dealings with Falcone and who told the truth, but the fact that it practically leaps into the movie out of nowhere and then resolves itself just as quickly with hardly any time to let that information really sink in and reflect for Bruce is a weakness.

That element needed to play out more like Peter's struggles in the middle of Spider-Man 2, IMO. Give Bruce more time to really absorb this information and how others' reactions feed into that revelation.

Either way, like we both agree, this is a matter of apples versus oranges.

I think the Dark Knight third act is much more emotionally impactful than The Batman for me.

The Boat scene while unrealistic is spot on with Jokers philosophy twisted as hell and Its conclusion is so unique and refreshing with the people choosing to do the right thing in the end that it makes me tear up everytime.

Batman Jokers final conversation is phenomenal and the two face scene is the scariest most intense scene I've seen in a comic book movie.

The whole third act has so much energy style and moving parts that I personally like it more than The Batman third act.

Once Batman gets the flair it gets close to that level but everything before that doesn't hit me as emotionally.

The shootings and flood were definitely tense but I never questioned that Batman would prevail.

The Dark Knight third act had me on the edge of my seet the whole time we seeing Batman have some sort of victory felt even more satisfying for me.

It's all subjective though.

 

[Frodo]

For me , there really is no contest .

In all honesty, this is the only place I've even seen people attempt to argue that The Batman is better than TDK.

I've seen alot of people saying it's " up there " with the Nolan films in terms of quality, but not that it's surpassed any of the Nolan films.

Now , I'll admit I don't go on ever messageboard, reddit thread, or twitter, but I haven't really seen, or heard of a groundswell of opinion that the "which is better TDK or The Batman" argument is a topic of debate outside of this forum.

It's certainly not a debate I've seen even from film critics who love The Batman. If there have been film critics who've claimed that The Batman is better than TDK, they're in the minority.

I can fully believe that alot of the generation after me, including kids, will love this film much more than TDK ,and the Nolan films, since, that happens with every new generation which inherits each new version of the character.

My generation certainly preferred Keaton's Batman, and Batman in 1989 to Adam West's version and the 1966 film.
The next generation preferred the Nolan films to the Burton/Schumacer era.

But other than that , I haven't seen TDK's quality, it's place, or it's ranking, for lack of a better, questioned by the existence of The Batman.

There may be alot of fans who prefer The Batman to TDK, but to me at least, that really doesn't constitute much of a debate when TDK is still largely considered the top of the heap by the majority of people.

 

[Gothamsknight]

For me , there really is no contest .

In all honesty, this is the only place I've even seen people attempt to argue that The Batman is better than TDK.

I've seen alot of people saying it's " up there " with the Nolan films in terms of quality, but not that it's surpassed any of the Nolan films.

Now , I'll admit I don't go on ever messageboard, reddit thread, or twitter, but I haven't really seen, or heard of a groundswell of opinion that the "which is better TDK or The Batman" argument is a topic of debate outside of this forum.

It's certainly not a debate I've seen even from film critics who love The Batman. If there have been film critics who've claimed that The Batman is better than TDK, they're in the minority.

I can fully believe that alot of the generation after me, including kids, will love this film much more than TDK ,and the Nolan films, since, that happens with every new generation which inherits each new version of the character.

My generation certainly preferred Keaton's Batman, and Batman in 1989 to Adam West's version and the 1966 film.
The next generation preferred the Nolan films to the Burton/Schumacer era.

But other than that , I haven't seen TDK's quality, it's place, or it's ranking, for lack of a better, questioned by the existence of The Batman.

There may be alot of fans who prefer The Batman to TDK, but to me at least, that really doesn't constitute much of a debate when TDK is still largely considered the top of the heap by the majority of people.

Agreed. outside of comic book twitter, the film seems generally well received but I as well have yet to hear "better than The Dark Knight" amongst most people I know or other social media. Comic book twitter treats it like a game changer, but just remember that a lot of very young people frequent Twitter (16-20 year olds), so this is possibly their first Batman theater experience too. Twitter is the only place where I've seen 1 or 2 people say "it's better than all 3 Nolan films combined".

 

[Filmfreak]

I think there's a reason so many people make the division of "better movie" and "better Batman movie". The Batman, while popular with all kinds of moviegoers, it seems to resonate in a bigger percentage with comic book fans than with general audience. And since this is a forum for superhero films, it makes perfect sense it's a bit more popular here.

 

[Gothamsknight]

I think there's a reason so many people make the division of "better movie" and "better Batman movie". The Batman, while popular with all kinds of moviegoers, it seems to resonate in a bigger percentage with comic book fans than with general audience. And since this is a forum for superhero films, it makes perfect sense it's a bit more popular here.

I agree. Still, I think TDK is both a better movie and a better Batman movie too. It's a phenomenal Batman vs Joker story that shows off what makes both characters so interesting and their relationship so fascinating for the past 80 years. People try to discredit the film due to it's scope and it feeling like a crime drama, but I actually think it's more fascinating that nolan managed to tell a definitive story through a genre lens. It's why I often get somewhat perplexed at the "not a great batman movie" accusations.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

But I actually think it's more fascinating that nolan managed to tell a definitive story through a genre lens.

Yes, and they use that as a negative towards Nolan.

But then they'll praise Reeves for doing that same thing.

 

[Gothamsknight]

Yes, and they use that as a negative towards Nolan.

But then they'll praise Reeves for doing that same thing.

 

[Filmfreak]

I agree. Still, I think TDK is both a better movie and a better Batman movie too. It's a phenomenal Batman vs Joker story that shows off what makes both characters so interesting and their relationship so fascinating for the past 80 years. People try to discredit the film due to it's scope and it feeling like a crime drama, but I actually think it's more fascinating that nolan managed to tell a definitive story through a genre lens. It's why I often get somewhat perplexed at the "not a great batman movie" accusations.

Yeah that argument is moot. One could also say the same thing for The Batman being too much of a film noir or a Se7en-reminiscent, but a movie can be both if the director knows how to incorporate those elements well enough. The Dark Knight always felt to me like a great and original Batman comic come to life. Even though it has elements from various preexisted stories, it also has a fresh and unique approach.

Also that complaint of not enough Batman and too much Bruce Wayne in the trilogy makes no sense to me. Batman is hollow without Bruce Wayne. He is the actual character and what give his dark persona depth, complexity and a reason to exist. In fact I'll say that I wanted more Bruce Wayne in The Batman. He was barely the man behind the mask and when he was, it felt like they were one and the same. Of course, that was intentional, but also felt a bit one-dimensional at times. For me, at least.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

One could also say the same thing for The Batman being too much of a film noir or a Se7en-reminiscent.

I'm willing to bet we'll see that, actually.

 

[Gothamsknight]

Yeah that argument is moot. One could also say the same thing for The Batman being too much of a film noir or a Se7en-reminiscent, but a movie can be both if the director knows how to incorporate those elements well enough. The Dark Knight always felt to me like a great and original Batman comic come to life. Even though it has elements from various preexisted stories, it also has a fresh and unique approach.

Also that complaint of not enough Batman and too much Bruce Wayne in the trilogy makes no sense to me. Batman is hollow without Bruce Wayne. He is the actual character and what give his dark persona depth, complexity and a reason to exist. In fact I'll say that I wanted more Bruce Wayne in The Batman. He was barely the man behind the mask and when he was, it felt like they were one and the same. Of course, that was intentional, but also felt a bit one-dimensional at times. For me, at least.

Exactly. The Bruce Wayne stuff is possibly my biggest issue with the film as well, along with some things feeling too familiar.

In regards to TDK though, it does combine all the elements to make a great Batman movie. Maybe it's just me, but I see filmmaking as an entirely different medium than comics. I don't watch comic book movies to see a literal translation of everything. I want to see how a director can take the characters and world with their own style and flare while still respecting who those characters are. Nolan did that perfectly. It's why stuff like perma-white, the Bale voice, the aesthetic aren't an issue because they all compliment each other well. The movie is gorgeous, and it wears it's Heat influences on its sleeve at times, but in the best way. Those things, and the use of genres, is what makes adaptions like TDK so damn fascinating. I mean look at this. How does this not look like Gotham/a Batman movie? It's instantly recognizable as classic Batman just going by the images. The mood IS Batman in all of these shots.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

There is part of me that feels much like how Joker spent too much time/energy trying to be Taxi Driver meets King of Comedy, The Batman maybe is too wrapped up in trying to be other films (Chinatown, Se7en, etc.), too.

 

[BatLobster]

Also that complaint of not enough Batman and too much Bruce Wayne in the trilogy makes no sense to me. Batman is hollow without Bruce Wayne. He is the actual character and what give his dark persona depth, complexity and a reason to exist. In fact I'll say that I wanted more Bruce Wayne in The Batman. He was barely the man behind the mask and when he was, it felt like they were one and the same. Of course, that was intentional, but also felt a bit one-dimensional at times. For me, at least.

Yeah, for me The Batman proved that the opposite can be true and a Batman movie feels kind of incomplete without a version of Bruce Wayne that I can engage with on some level. Now, I think The Batman made the absolute most of its approach, it gave Pattinson a cowl that he had a lot of room to act in and he does an amazing job emoting through it and finding so many great nuances in his performance. No doubt about that. He's an incredible Batman, maybe the best, which is saying a lot! But that's still not a substitute for a well-developed, multidimensional version of Bruce Wayne for me.

 

[Rick190293]

Exactly. The Bruce Wayne stuff is possibly my biggest issue with the film as well, along with some things feeling too familiar.

In regards to TDK though, it does combine all the elements to make a great Batman movie. Maybe it's just me, but I see filmmaking as an entirely different medium than comics. I don't watch comic book movies to see a literal translation of everything. I want to see how a director can take the characters and world with their own style and flare while still respecting who those characters are. Nolan did that perfectly. It's why stuff like perma-white, the Bale voice, the aesthetic aren't an issue because they all compliment each other well. The movie is gorgeous, and it wears it's Heat influences on its sleeve at times, but in the best way. Those things, and the use of genres, is what makes adaptions like TDK so damn fascinating. I mean look at this. How does this not look like Gotham/a Batman movie? It's instantly recognizable as classic Batman just going by the images. The mood IS Batman in all of these shots.

Probably one of the best descriptions I ever read of TDK.

 

[The Batman]

Honestly I don't think it's fair to compare any other comic book movie to The Dark Knight. It's become such a cultural touchstone, with an influence that exceeds just about every other movie put out in the last twenty years.

There are several comic book movies that could be compared to TDK, whether through level of quality, influence, or both. "The Avengers" is just as, if not more influential a film than TDK. TDK, and the Nolan trilogy in general, would not exist without both Donner Superman or Burton Batman.

It's no exaggeration to suggest that The Dark Knight gave the rest of Hollywood permission to treat comic book movie characters seriously for the first time. To invest in more than just silly costumes, and special effects. Without its influence, there's no MCU. There's no Hollywood the way it exists today.

Iron Man literally came out two months before The Dark Knight.

Donner Superman already did much of what you described. Not to mention, Singer's X-Men, also influenced by Donner Superman the way Nolan was.

 

[WayneMB]

some of you are overestimating TDK influence. It certainly was groundbreaking but in the end it didn't change the course of cinema as it deserved to. I think even Rob talked about it in some interview a long time ago. He thought it would change the way other studios made films.
You could argue mcu is much more influential for better or worse. And the chain of influence is never-ending. if it weren't for donner's superman and burton's batman there would be no nolan trilogy and so on and so forth. The Batman could very well end up being as influential, or not. We'll see.

 

[DeadlyWest]

some of you are overestimating TDK influence. It certainly was groundbreaking but in the end it didn't change the course of cinema as it deserved to. I think even Rob talked about it in some interview a long time ago. He thought it would change the way other studios made films.
You could argue mcu is much more influential for better or worse. And the chain of influence is never-ending. if it weren't for donner's superman and burton's batman there would be no nolan trilogy and so on and so forth. The Batman could very well end up being as influential, or not. We'll see.

Course of cinema? Maybe not.

But literally every action movie post 2008 was trying to be The Dark Knight for a while. Would there be a TDK without Burton's Batman or Donner's Superman? No, but when even James Bond movies are basically trying to replicate TDK in some way, it's pretty safe to say its influence isn't downplayed.

 

[Frodo]

I would say that Superman showed the potential of a taking these characters seriously, but we have to keep in mind, it was considered "an outlier" at the time of its release, and the prevailing view for a couple of decades after Superman 78 was still that CBM were just "kids stuff" .

Even Batman 89 was considered an "an outlier" in terms of the perception of it as a film in relation to other CB films and tv shows up to that point.

In terms of influence, these films all build on what came before, so that's not a surprise. These filmmakers and artists are influenced by other filmmakers and other artists.

As someone who was an adult at the time TDK and IM were released and has followed Hollywood before their releases since, it was certainly impactful and influential on the CBM film genre as was the MCU.

They were both important milestones and models that rival studios tried to emulate in one way or another with their IPs.

The MCU has had the greater impact in terms of how to manage of CBM cinematic universe on the studio end, but the Nolan films weren't meant to be part of a larger cinematic film universe, so it wasn't going to change Hollywood the way The MCU has.

Nevertheless, other studios took plot points from TDK and brought them to their IPs( Star Trek Into Darkness, Skyfall) and its exclusion from the Oscars is certainly one of the reasons the Academy went back to nominating 10 film again as opposed to the 5 they had done for years previous.

 

[Jekecy]

Course of cinema? Maybe not.

But literally every action movie post 2008 was trying to be The Dark Knight for a while.

Like? The only one I could see a direct influence throughout the whole film is 007 Skyfall.

TDKs legacy isn't in affecting the course of film, it's setting a cinematic benchmark for all CBMs and blockbusters. It doesn't have many "children".

The film with an inarguable ripple effect in affecting how these productions are made is 2012's Avengers. The entire Hollywood landscape is wholly different without the success of that film.