The BATSUIT Thread

[Invader Joker]

Look, with the technology that we have nowadays, I REFUSE to think that it's impossible to make a batsuit that looks cool and in which an actor can actually move and breathe.

 

[FunkMiller]

Batman as encompassing concept was never going to work in the real world, I think most fans would concede to that premise. I'm referring to the internal logic of that world as it could exist.

The creative team responsible for bringing that world to life can't operate on the eventual conclusion that it's impossible. It's their job to make it (appear to) work. While I don't think any one film has completely succeeded just yet in making me believe that suit performs as it's being portrayed, they're getting closer.

Yeah, fair enough. I get what you’re saying. I was just stating that the odds of an actor ever being properly comfortable in a bat suit, or being able to engage in combat that approaches realistic are very, very low. We’re never going to see a one take fight in a Batman movie, like we saw in Daredevil in the hallway fight, because it would be impossible for anyone in a full bat suit to do it, and it look even remotely believable.

Unless we’re talking about doing it in CGI, of course. That makes everything a lot easier. A CGI cape and cowl would allow for some very realistic combat to be portrayed. The obvious hindrances of a cape and cowl wouldn’t exist.

 

[Travesty]

Er... that picture wasn’t Bob Kane art, it was a Mezco doll.

Or are you trying to say that the person who draws the art is responsible for the invention of the character?

Bob Kane drew Batman to specifications given to him by Bill Finger. You even contradict your own argument. You say that artists like Miller, Capullo and Lee didn’t invent Batman, they just put their artistic stamp on it... surely the same applies to Bob Kane?

I don't know why this is so difficult? Yes, it was a Mezco doll, based on Bob Kane's art. Just like if you see dolls, figures, or statues on TDKR, you would say that's Miller's Batman, because it was based on TDKR, which was drawn by Frank Miller.

What I said about the other artists isn't a contradiction, it just reinforces what I say. Going back to TDKR analogy, if you saw a statue or doll based on TDKR, you would say its Miller's Batman. You wouldn't say it's Bill Finger's. It's Frank Miller's, cause it was his art, and his specific design that the statue is based off of. It's Frank Miller's Batman. Again, same thing as above: it's not Bill Finger's art, its Bob Kane's, therefore, it's Kane's Batman. I understand what you're trying to say about Bill Finger's involvement in the creation of Batman, but at the end of the day, it's not his art that is being discussed.

 

[Invader Joker]

Yeah, fair enough. I get what you’re saying. I was just stating that the odds of an actor ever being properly comfortable in a bat suit, or being able to engage in combat that approaches realistic are very, very low. We’re never going to see a one take fight in a Batman movie, like we saw in Daredevil in the hallway fight, because it would be impossible for anyone in a full bat suit to do it, and it look even remotely believable.

Unless we’re talking about doing it in CGI, of course. That makes everything a lot easier. A CGI cape and cowl would allow for some very realistic combat to be portrayed. The obvious hindrances of a cape and cowl wouldn’t exist.

Why would it be impossible? Daredevil's suit is not that different from Batman's except for the cape (and you can always solve that problem of "oh they're gonna use the cape against him"by just having, idk, the cape automatically electrocuting anyone that touches it) And again, I don't really buy the premise that it's impossible to make a suit that an actor can feel comfortable being on and looks cool at the same time.

 

[FunkMiller]

I don't know why this is so difficult? Yes, it was a Mezco doll, based on Bob Kane's art. Just like if you see dolls, figures, or statues on TDKR, you would say that's Miller's Batman, because it was based on TDKR, which was drawn by Frank Miller.

What I said about the other artists isn't a contradiction, it just reinforces what I say. Going back to TDKR analogy, if you saw a statue or doll based on TDKR, you would say its Miller's Batman. You wouldn't say it's Bill Finger's. It's Frank Miller's, cause it was his art, and his specific design that the statue is based off of. It's Frank Miller's Batman. Again, same thing as above: it's not Bill Finger's art, its Bob Kane's, therefore, it's Kane's Batman. I understand what you're trying to say about Bill Finger's involvement in the creation of Batman, but at the end of the day, it's not his art that is being discussed.

Gah.

My point was that the guys above were talking about a bat suit inspired by the original 1939 version.

Yes, Bob Kane drew it... but from the design created by Bill Finger.

If you want to believe that the artist is the creator of a character’s appearance, even when that appearance is dictated to them by someone else, then you carry on.

 

[FunkMiller]

Why would it be impossible? Daredevil's suit is not that different from Batman's except for the cape (and you can always solve that problem of "oh they're gonna use the cape against him"by just having, idk, the cape automatically electrocuting anyone that touches it) And again, I don't really buy the premise that it's impossible to make a suit that an actor can feel comfortable being on and looks cool at the same time.

Fair enough. We’ll agree to disagree on that, then.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Why would it be impossible? Daredevil's suit is not that different from Batman's except for the cape (and you can always solve that problem of "oh they're gonna use the cape against him"by just having, idk, the cape automatically electrocuting anyone that touches it) And again, I don't really buy the premise that it's impossible to make a suit that an actor can feel comfortable being on and looks cool at the same time.

Yeah, there’s no reason at all a suit would be “impossible”. They did it with DD, on a much lower budget. They could easily do it with Batman. The only issue would really be working around a practical cape, and even then, you could easily make the cape CGI, or have it be retractable during an extended fight.

Outside that, making a suit that allows for good fight choreo isn’t out the realm of possibility in any way, shape, or form.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Fair enough. We’ll agree to disagree on that, then.

Yeah, while I’m all for Finger getting proper credit, in terms of design, it’s still Kane. Sure, Finger gave him the ideas to come up with the design, but Kane still designed it.

It’s Kane’s design.

 

[C Prometheus]

Yeah, there’s no reason at all a suit would be “impossible”. They did it with DD, on a much lower budget. They could easily do it with Batman. The only issue would really be working around a practical cape, and even then, you could easily make the cape CGI, or have it be retractable during an extended fight.

Outside that, making a suit that allows for good fight choreo isn’t out the realm of possibility in any way, shape, or form.

Honestly I really hope Reeves brings back a practical cape and gets one similar to what Nolan used in Begins. That was easily the best the cape ever looked on film, IMO. It looked quite lush and velvety and it accentuated the moodiness of a lot of shots of Bruce in the suit throughout the film.

 

[Jekecy]

I personally hated the look of the texture. Looked cheap compared to the rest of the suit. It’s definitely the best in terms of movement. B89 is still king in how the actual cape looks.

 

[Boom]

Yeah the velvet cape didn't work for me either.

 

[Gamma Goliath]

Practical cape and a cgi cape is the way to go. Although I agree about the nolan cape it was terrible.

 

[Travesty]

Yeah, I wasn't a fan of the blanket-like cape from Nolan's movies. It looked a bit cheap.

B89 still has the best looking cape. I liked the BvS cape, but most of it was CGI, which I'm fine with. It worked for Superman, and Thor in the Marvel movies. So whatever they do, I just hoe it looks better than what we saw in TDKT.

 

[Vaibow]

The problem is, if you design a realistic suit someone could fight in it wouldn’t have a cape, pointy ears, it wouldn’t be all in one, it wouldn’t be skin tight.

There’s always a huge amount of dramatic licence, because in any real fight situation, someone dressed in a bat suit, no matter how good a fighter they were, would get destroyed in seconds.

The bat suit is by definition always going to impractical and uncomfortable. That’s just the way it is. It’s essentially a sweaty skin tight onesie that doesn’t allow for proper body movement, with a big flapping, heavy cape, and a cowl that makes you deaf and destroys your peripheral vision. I’d rather fight butt naked (not a pretty sight) than wear that thing!

I love the character without reservation, but he can only ever work in a fictional environment. There’s just no way it could ever translate into the real world. Nolan did the best he could to get it close, but even in the TDK trilogy, there is a vast, vast gulf between its fiction, and the realities of combat.

I think, because we know its a costume, how it was made etc and we know it's uncomfortable we understand that it's dramatic license. However, we are lead to believe it's not uncomfortable, it's not sweaty silicon etc it's military grade fire resistant kevlar etc. One thing i really respected Burton for, he hired ballet dancers to walk and almost glide about in the suit, to make it look as effortless as possible. That's the issue with the Snyder bat suit, you know it's padding and bulky - luckily it transitioned well on screen,

I hope Reeves and it seems so, will go less brute force, more lurking in the shadows, using theatrics, brains to evade situations and violence only when necessary - i would also like to see Bruce training wearing a cape, showing us he is aware it's a hindrance but can also be used as defense.

I'd like to see a fight where his cape is grabbed, so he almost hits the clasps akin to nolan suit, if you will and the cape comes off... then he can use it and the retrieve it at the end.

But batman to me should be like bond in a way, to get out of trouble by skill and cool gadgets. He is a detective after all, that knows how to defend himself.

 

[FunkMiller]

Yeah, while I’m all for Finger getting proper credit, in terms of design, it’s still Kane. Sure, Finger gave him the ideas to come up with the design, but Kane still designed it.

It’s Kane’s design.

That’s not what I was talking about dude! Was replying to a different post. I’m adamant Bill Finger is responsible for Batman’s look.

 

[Kane52630]

 

[Jekecy]

One thing i really respected Burton for, he hired ballet dancers to walk and almost glide about in the suit, to make it look as effortless as possible. That's the issue with the Snyder bat suit, you know it's padding and bulky - luckily it transitioned well on screen,

A lot of people praise Bats’ intro in BvS, but for me it’s always been marred by that incredibly awkward shot of him hidden on the wall. Once the shot is in focus, he looks uncomfortable and barely hanging on. How the suit was lit didn’t lend itself to the ‘creature of the night’ tone whatsoever. The following CG shot of him “crawling” on the ceiling was unconvincing too. Conceptually a compelling direction for Batman, but I thought the execution was way off.

Burton worked wonders on that suit. Especially seeing the BTS footage, it’s impressive how he weaved the restrictions into a flowing language of stillness for the character. The shot of Keaton seemingly floating across the staircase in Ace Chemicals is one of my favorite moments.

 

[Boom]

A lot of people praise Bats’ intro in BvS, but for me it’s always been marred by that incredibly awkward shot of him hidden on the wall. Once the shot is in focus, he looks uncomfortable and barely hanging on.

I honestly don't know what Snyder was thinking with that shot. He looked like he had tried to find a hiding spot at the last possible second. It just comes across as funny.

 

[OutOfBoose]

I honestly don't know what Snyder was thinking with that shot. He looked like he had tried to find a hiding spot at the last possible second. It just comes across as funny.

Yeah, it didn't work. Batman looked stupid. Busted while trying to hide.

 

[Infinity9999x]

That’s not what I was talking about dude! Was replying to a different post. I’m adamant Bill Finger is responsible for Batman’s look.

You’re not wrong in the sense that finger suggested tweaks that inspired Kane to come up with the now iconic design. However, Kane is still the designer. If you describe to a clothing designer how you want a suit to look, and then the designer draws it up, you had the idea for the design, but it’s the designer’s design.

So going back to the original point, when someone was looking at a sculpt that was based off Bob Kane’s design, and someone tried to say it was Bill Finger’s design, I actually agree that it’s correct to say it’s Kane’s design. Don’t get me wrong, Finger got screwed out of a lot of recognition he deserves for creating Batman and the mythos, but Kane still ultimately designed the look. So it’s fair to say it’s his design. Inspired by Finger, but he designed it.

 

[Travesty]

You’re not wrong in the sense that finger suggested tweaks that inspired Kane to come up with the now iconic design. However, Kane is still the designer. If you describe to a clothing designer how you want a suit to look, and then the designer draws it up, you had the idea for the design, but it’s the designer’s design.

So going back to the original point, when someone was looking at a sculpt that was based off Bob Kane’s design, and someone tried to say it was Bill Finger’s design, I actually agree that it’s correct to say it’s Kane’s design. Don’t get me wrong, Finger got screwed out of a lot of recognition he deserves for creating Batman and the mythos, but Kane still ultimately designed the look. So it’s fair to say it’s his design. Inspired by Finger, but he designed it.

Exactly. I don't know why this is so hard to understand? Yes, Bill Finger contributed to the look, but he didn't design it, it wasn't his art, it was Bob Kane's. That's it, end of story. Just because Bob Kane had a dumb idea of a blond haired, red costumed Batman, and then Bill Finger came in and suggested the Black and Grey, a Bat-symbol on the chest, and bat ears, doesn't mean it's Bill Finger's design. Yes, those all contributed to the overall look that we all know and love today, no doubt about it....but Bill Finger still didn't come up with the design, Bob Kane did, as he was the one who drew it. Like I said before, when we look at something like a Neal Adams' Batman, we credit Adams for his design and art, we don't go back and say it's actually Bill Finger's, because it was his idea for the color scheme, the ears and the symbol, etc. No, it's Neal Adams' Batman, it's Frank Miller's Batman, it's Breyfogle's Batman, it's Jim Lee's Batman, and yes, it's Bob Kane's Batman. It's not Finger's design, he wasn't the artist.

I understand that Bill Finger got the short end of the stick on a lot of credit for Batman throughout the era, but don't start crediting him for other people's art. That's not the way of going about it. The entire point of setting the record straight on Bill Finger's legacy, is to give proper credit. The same should go to all Batman contributors, artists, and writers, etc. And I know it's fashionable to s**t all over Bob Kane these days, but he was one of the creators of Batman, and that was his design. It wasn't Bill Finger's: bottom line.

 

[FunkMiller]

Exactly. I don't know why this is so hard to understand? Yes, Bill Finger contributed to the look, but he didn't design it, it wasn't his art, it was Bob Kane's. That's it, end of story. Just because Bob Kane had a dumb idea of a blond haired, red costumed Batman, and then Bill Finger came in and suggested the Black and Grey, a Bat-symbol on the chest, and bat ears, doesn't mean it's Bill Finger's design. Yes, those all contributed to the overall look that we all know and love today, no doubt about it....but Bill Finger still didn't come up with the design, Bob Kane did, as he was the one who drew it. Like I said before, when we look at something like a Neal Adams' Batman, we credit Adams for his design and art, we don't go back and say it's actually Bill Finger's, because it was his idea for the color scheme, the ears and the symbol, etc. No, it's Neal Adams' Batman, it's Frank Miller's Batman, it's Breyfogle's Batman, it's Jim Lee's Batman, and yes, it's Bob Kane's Batman. It's not Finger's design, he wasn't the artist.

I understand that Bill Finger got the short end of the stick on a lot of credit for Batman throughout the era, but don't start crediting him for other people's art. That's not the way of going about it. The entire point of setting the record straight on Bill Finger's legacy, is to give proper credit. The same should go to all Batman contributors, artists, and writers, etc. And I know it's fashionable to s**t all over Bob Kane these days, but he was one the creators of Batman, and that was his design. It wasn't Bill Finger's: bottom line.

You see, I always give credit for the invention of something to the person who thought it up. I’m funny that way.

And do go and watch Batman And Bill. Also read Marc Tyler Nobleman’s book. It’ll show you just what a piece of **** Bob Kane actually was.

You’re not wrong in the sense that finger suggested tweaks that inspired Kane to come up with the now iconic design. However, Kane is still the designer. If you describe to a clothing designer how you want a suit to look, and then the designer draws it up, you had the idea for the design, but it’s the designer’s design.

So going back to the original point, when someone was looking at a sculpt that was based off Bob Kane’s design, and someone tried to say it was Bill Finger’s design, I actually agree that it’s correct to say it’s Kane’s design. Don’t get me wrong, Finger got screwed out of a lot of recognition he deserves for creating Batman and the mythos, but Kane still ultimately designed the look. So it’s fair to say it’s his design. Inspired by Finger, but he designed it.

Tweaks????? Literally everything you know and love about Batman came from Bill Finger’s mind.

 

[Travesty]

You see, I always give credit for the invention of something to the person who thought it up. I’m funny that way.

And do go and watch Batman And Bill. Also read Marc Tyler Nobleman’s book. It’ll show you just what a piece of **** Bob Kane actually was.

Yes, I've seen Batman and Bill on Hulu, I've also read the book that was out many years before the doc. I'm well aware of the history, but everything still stands: you're crediting Bill Finger for Bob Kane's art.

Do you say a Neal Adam's piece is actually Bill Finger's, since you "always give credit to the person who thought it up"? Is Breyfogle's art really just Bill Finger's? Is that Bill Finger's Batman swooping down in your avatar? Do you see why I keep going back to these other artists? When people point out a Batman design that was drawn by Bob Kane, and then credit Kane, that's the proper thing to do. Bill Finger didn't design or draw that Batman.

 

[Jekecy]

Now I'm curious; has it ever been detailed what specifically about Finger's suggestions translated directly to the final design? Cowl, cape, ears, etc. are very generic descriptors. You don't necessarily arrive to that original Batman design based solely on those terms.

 

[FunkMiller]

Yes, I've seen Batman and Bill on Hulu, I've also read the book that was out many years before the doc. I'm well aware of the history, but everything still stands: you're crediting Bill Finger for Bob Kane's art.

Do you say a Neal Adam's piece is actually Bill Finger's, since you "always give credit to the person who thought it up"? Is Breyfogle's art really just Bill Finger's? Is that Bill Finger's Batman swooping down in your avatar? Do you see why I keep going back to these other artists? When people point out a Batman design that was drawn by Bob Kane, and then credit Kane, that's the proper thing to do. Bill Finger didn't design or draw that Batman.

I’ve never once credited Bill Finger with Bob Kane’s artwork. I’ve credited Bill Finger with inventing Batman’s entire costume. There’s a very big difference there.