The Last Jedi The Biggest Problem with The Last Jedi is The Force Awakens.

[FunkMiller]

The issue is that the movie absolutely is not willing to simply let Luke be a flawed character, it absolutely wants him to be the hero, but at the wrong moment.

The thing that apparently scandalized Johnson was precisely that Luke was no longer the hero, or heroic.

So the movie is a redemption arc that puts Luke in the position of hero again, but at a moment in the story when he is supposed to be passing the baton to other characters.

The movie wants to have its cake, and eat it, too. It wants to be critical of the hero's journey, but actually it's obsessed with it.

The same sort of thing happens with Holdo. We are told that she cares more about the light than seeming like a hero, but then immediately she sacrifices herself like a traditional hero.

He dies. Baton passed successfully, I’d say.

 

[Mjölnir]

The problem is though that assumes a level of knowledge from the audience they might not have, or might see differently. This holds especially true when talking about a character like Batman. Which version are they deconstructing in Snyder’s pretentious, faux-intellectual pile? Nolan’s? Burton’s? West’s? Miller’s? Adams? Lee’s? O’neil’s? That’s why BvS fails completely. It’s asking an audience to accept a deconstruction of a character that they have no prior knowledge of! Batfleck is never established!

There’s only ever been one Luke Skywalker, so you can rely on audience knowledge when you perform your deconstruction. I accept that for some this wasn’t done well though.

In both cases it's mainly big fans that dislike the deconstruction. The people that don't know the characters well don't care about that, they just reacted to that the DCEU just hasn't been seen as having good films in it.

 

[Flemm]

He dies. Baton passed successfully, I’d say.

Well, no. What happened would be similar to Yoda intervening directly in Empire, rather than the story being about Luke.

It's not about Yoda.

This movie actually needs Yoda to play Yoda, because the movie is obsessed with Luke's hero's journey.

 

[Mjölnir]

Like I said, we're still following it. I never said they scrapped it...I said they deviated. There is a difference.

They aren't deviating much with Rey. She's Luke Skywalker 2.0 and the deviations are just large enough not to be an exact copy.

 

[jmc]

I will agree the PT tried harder than TFA to grow the brand, but at the same time, there is a pattern of similarity to them (if you watch the Red Letter Media reviews of them, many of them are pointed out in great detail...as well as outlining the Ring Theory idea used to defend the PT often). But even removing those from the equation, TFA put Star Wars into a corner where it couldn't grow. We were just spinning our wheels. Johnson tried to get the series to a point where it could go beyond that, and he think he did it. Yes, we have Rebels vs Empire again basically, but Episode 7 created that problem. TLJ though took away a lot of things that made it mirror the OT too much (no more Emperor looming over our new Vader, etc.) I just hope JJ does something with it. I said in another thread, if Episode IX has another Death Star, I am walking out, LOL.

See, this is where I disagree. TFA actually set up the perfect opportunity to have TLJ start fresh whilst not having to knock the wall down. The main issue I believe is both the timeline needing to be a larger, and that The First Order needed to have been eliminated all together. TFA should have been the last embers of the Empire, once defeated Ep 8 should have been the start of the new threat, lead by the Kylo and the Knights of Ren. That's the perfect blank canvas to work with. A new, younger threat with different goals, new vehicles, weapons, aliens, maybe they eliminated the rule of two etc. TLJ sort of did that, but not really because we pretty much end up exactly where we were 40 years ago. The trilogy is actually kind of simply with TFA. 7 is the Fall of the old empire, 8 is the rise of the new threat, 9 is the defeat of the new threat.

 

[Spider-Fan]

They aren't deviating much with Rey. She's Luke Skywalker 2.0 and the deviations are just large enough not to be an exact copy.

I don't disagree with that, but I blame TFA for establishing that foundation, but like I said before, I think TLJ opened things up for her to forge her own path and ultimately make a new legacy for herself, and not be a female Luke clone.

 

[FunkMiller]

In both cases it's mainly big fans that dislike the deconstruction. The people that don't know the characters well don't care about that, they just reacted to that the DCEU just hasn't been seen as having good films in it.

And that’s more than fair enough. My reaction to BvS was to stick my fingers down my throat.

I’d argue Luke has been handled far better than Batman though.

Funnily enough though, the issues with both characters seem centred around their willingness to commit murder.

At least Luke doesn’t actually do it.

 

[batman1]

I've been seeing this movement take place lately.

After seeing the film I agree. Its pretty clear Rian Johnson either wasn't a fan or just had no interest in building off of that movie.

When thinking about The Last Jedi as some alternate universe movie or just forgetting about The Force Awakens (which I'm not a huge fan of anyway) I like it even more.

Problem is this is a trilogy!!! It's expected to follow the story and continue it.

 

[2kt09]

First of all people have said many times that you can make Luke have had a road of failure and still be building on what was before. Secondly, if they don't want to do a normal hero's journey, why do we have Rey?

We don't have Rey. We have Finn.
Rey exists to give the illusion of one.

 

[Spider-Fan]

See, this is where I disagree. TFA actually set up the perfect opportunity to have TLJ start fresh whilst not having to knock the wall down. The main issue I believe is both the timeline needing to be a larger, and that The First Order needed to have been eliminated all together. TFA should have been the last embers of the Empire, once defeated Ep 8 should have been the start of the new threat, lead by the Kylo and the Knights of Ren. That's the perfect blank canvas to work with. A new, younger threat with different goals, new vehicles, weapons, aliens, maybe they eliminated the rule of two etc. TLJ sort of did that, but not really because we pretty much end up exactly where we were 40 years ago. The trilogy is actually kind of simply with TFA. 7 is the Fall of the old empire, 8 is the rise of the new threat, 9 is the defeat of the new threat.

I am not sure I like using a first movie to out the Empire. If they're too weak to fight back, hard to make it exciting. On that front, I understand the First Order. I think the issue is, the First Order starts the movie strong. That was the mistake. The First Order should have risen from the Empire's ashes and rose to power in the movie. We should have seen. Not start the film with them having a Death Star. That was the mistake, IMO.

 

[batman1]

We don't have Rey. We have Finn.
Rey exists to give the illusion of one.

Right!! They're doing a lot of misdirection!! Great point!!

 

[Mjölnir]

I don't disagree with that, but I blame TFA for establishing that foundation, but like I said before, I think TLJ opened things up for her to forge her own path and ultimately make a new legacy for herself, and not be a female Luke clone.

By the looks of it she's just heading towards that final confrontation with the dark side user that she's connected to, just like Luke did, but we'll have to wait and see if they come up with something else.

 

[Mjölnir]

We don't have Rey. We have Finn.
Rey exists to give the illusion of one.

Finn isn't the main character. The main characters of the new ones that the story revolves around are Rey and Kylo Ren.

 

[Mjölnir]

And that’s more than fair enough. My reaction to BvS was to stick my fingers down my throat.

I’d argue Luke has been handled far better than Batman though.

Funnily enough though, the issues with both characters seem centred around their willingness to commit murder.

At least Luke doesn’t actually do it.

I'm unsure how to judge the difference myself. Luke doesn't kill, but he does give up. Batman doesn't give up but he does kill haphazardly. On a surface comparison both are written to go against one fundamental character aspect.

I am more of a Luke Skywalker fan than a Batman fan though, so that of course alters how my emotional reaction is, but when judging it with reason it feels fairly close.

 

[FunkMiller]

I'm unsure how to judge the difference myself. Luke doesn't kill, but he does give up. Batman doesn't give up but he does kill haphazardly. On a surface comparison both are written to go against one fundamental character aspect.

I am more of a Luke Skywalker fan than a Batman fan though, so that of course alters how my emotional reaction is, but when judging it with reason it feels fairly close.

Trust me, as a huge Batman fan, that right there is far, far worse than anything done to Luke in TLJ.

 

[batman1]

Trust me, as a huge Batman fan, that right there is far, far worse than anything done to Luke in TLJ.

This let's me know that everyone making these new movies don't really understand the nature of the characters. They just try to do the cool stuff but it has no substance.

 

[2kt09]

Finn isn't the main character. The main characters of the new ones that the story revolves around are Rey and Kylo Ren.

But...he's the one actually going through a "normal" hero journey.

 

[batman1]

But...he's the one actually going through a "normal" hero journey.

It's confusing how they are doing this. That's for sure.

 

[Flemm]

The are plenty of possibilities.

There are always possibilities, and very good writing may be able to salvage part 3.

But there are legitimate issues because this movie didn't really do what part 2 should do, which is develop the conflict and add complexity. The reason being that it is more interested in ending Luke's story than anything else.

Kylo seemed for a moment like he was going to come into his own as a villain, but then he is immediately humiliated to give Luke his hero's moment. He may be powerful, but I'm not sure how anyone in the first order can possibly avoid laughing at him behind his back after that.

Rey wasn't developed at all. She's a person with Force powers after 2 movies. Or a reflection of Kylo. Which is a little humiliating, tbh. I think they will have to get rid of that.

Luke, Han and Leia are all out of the picture, so no more relying on them. Granted, Leia not being around is a result of tragic circumstances.

The rebel characters (Finn, Rose and Poe) are probably in the best place, since they are a solid group and are more or less where they should be at this point in the story. Ready to light the spark of rebellion.

But the main characters are Kylo and Rey, and both were sacrificed on the alter of Luke. Kylo is ridiculous, and Rey is either a non-entity, or a mirror of Kylo. Or both.

 

[jmc]

I am not sure I like using a first movie to out the Empire. If they're too weak to fight back, hard to make it exciting. On that front, I understand the First Order. I think the issue is, the First Order starts the movie strong. That was the mistake. The First Order should have risen from the Empire's ashes and rose to power in the movie. We should have seen. Not start the film with them having a Death Star. That was the mistake, IMO.

If the big issue with everyone is evolving the series in a new direction both the old cast of characters and the old threats needed to be eliminated over the course of the trilogy. This is why it doesn't make a lot of sense to me when people say this is a bold new direction, the First Order is essentially the Empire in a snazzy new storm trooper outfit and resprayed star destroyer.

 

[Sithborg]

There are always possibilities, and very good writing may be able to salvage part 3.

But there are legitimate issues because this movie didn't really do what part 2 should do, which is develop the conflict and add complexity. The reason being that it is more interested in ending Luke's story than anything else.

Kylo seemed for a moment like he was going to come into his own as a villain, but then he is immediately humiliated to give Luke his hero's moment. He may be powerful, but I'm not sure how anyone in the first order can possibly avoid laughing at him behind his back after that.

Rey wasn't developed at all. She's a person with Force powers after 2 movies. Or a reflection of Kylo. Which is a little humiliating, tbh. I think they will have to get rid of that.

Luke, Han and Leia are all out of the picture, so no more relying on them. Granted, Leia not being around is a result of tragic circumstances.

The rebel characters (Finn, Rose and Poe) are probably in the best place, since they are a solid group and are more or less where they should be at this point in the story. Ready to light the spark of rebellion.

But the main characters are Kylo and Rey, and both were sacrificed on the alter of Luke. Kylo is ridiculous, and Rey is either a non-entity, or a mirror of Kylo. Or both.

Say what? Kylo Ren is in the most interesting place, in terms of what they can do with him in IX.

And really, IX is in a great position, as it is almost wide open in what they can do. Unlike ESB and ROTJ.

 

[Flemm]

Kylo Ren is in the most interesting place, in terms of what they can do with him in IX.

In what sense?

He's now the leader of the First Order, but he's impossible to take seriously as a villain. Even the other first order guy does not. Is anybody scared of this guy?

He could be redeemed, but I think it would be very hard to do that convincingly.

It's the 3rd part of the trilogy, so the First Order will most likely be defeated. What are the interesting directions?

A good writer may be able to come up with something, but the 3rd act is supposed to tie existing threads together, and bring about a satisfying conclusion.

Which at this point has to revolve around Kylo, as he is the central character.

So the third movie is really in the position of needing to do the work of the 2nd and 3rd installments at the same time.

 

[2kt09]

In what sense?

It's what he says to Rey.
I'm expecting a [BLACKOUT]total annihilation in IX as Reylo wipe out both sides[/BLACKOUT].

 

[DeadStroke]

But...he's the one actually going through a "normal" hero journey.

I still feel like JJ dropped the ball with Finn in TFA.
RJ tried to salvage him, but Finn was already set for a bad course.

Lets hope 9 can try to do better, but it may already be too late.

They could have set him up sooooooooo much better.

He's a former Storm Trooper who defected and never got any real hint of trauma outside of his first mission. Instead he was just the scary and silly guy. So much so that I've lost interest in what happens to him now.

They did better here, but its up to JJ to right his wrongs.

 

[2kt09]

I still feel like JJ dropped the ball with Finn in TFA.
RJ tried to salvage him, but Finn was already set for a bad course.

Lets hope 9 can try to do better, but it may already be too late.

They could have set him up sooooooooo much better.

He's a former Storm Trooper who defected and never got any real hint of trauma outside of his first mission. Instead he was just the scary and silly guy. So much so that I've lost interest in what happens to him now.

They did better here, but its up to JJ to right his wrongs.

He seemed goofier from what I remember and this other subplot kinda sorta partially added to his arc.
JJ has to be the one to bring his "rival" back if he even chooses to.