The Last Jedi The Biggest Problem with The Last Jedi is The Force Awakens.

[Aximili86]

Its not far off it, bar an anti-Semitic ant eater and some appalling anti-Japanese fish.

And we'll all just conveniently forget all the offensive racial stereotypes in the OT as it doesn't suit our argument, right?

Yeah, 'cause Chewie's not a freed African-American slave or anything, CP0's not a cliche campy-gay British guy, Yoda's not an eccentric playful little kung-fu movie Buddhist master, Jabba's not an obese Italian mafioso.

That all started in 1999 with TPM with Jar Jar, Watto, and the Neimoidians.

 

[DACrowe]

Sure, why not. Just to me, it's a gut-wrenching pile of porg crap.

However, if judging by their scenes in The Last Jedi, then I bet even porg crap is delightful!

 

[Mandon Knight]

And we'll all just conveniently forget all the offensive racial stereotypes in the OT as it doesn't suit our argument, right?

Yeah, 'cause Chewie's not a freed African-American slave or anything, CP0's not a cliche campy-gay British guy, Yoda's not an eccentric playful little kung-fu movie Buddhist master, Jabba's not an obese Italian mafioso.

That all started in 1999 with TPM with Jar Jar, Watto, and the Neimoidians.

Err...blame Lucas, don't shout at me, it's not my fault.

 

[InCali]

TLJ is worse than Menace.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and just because an opinion is many standard deviations out from the norm doesn't, well, necessarily make it wrong.

 

[Greens]

Such a notion is laughable. The '77 film > TLJ.

I've seen many people rate The Last Jedi as second only to Empire, so there you go

 

[moviedoors]

The more I hear from Rian Johnson, the more pissed off I get. I get the feeling like he just went off and did his own thing with little direction or consultation from anyone and his response to what will happen in the next movie is "well JJ will have to figure that one out".

You’re right. And that’s what I love about it. He threw everything he had at it. I’m thrilled that JJ has to dig deep now. I’ve never been more excited as a Star Wars fan.

 

[jmc]

It's so bizarre to me seeing forum members who crapped on BvS for deconstructing the DC universe praising this deconstruction of the Star Wars universe.

 

[Flemm]

Well, that's not automatically a contradiction, because different films can have deconstructive aspirations, yet still vary a lot in terms of the quality and effectiveness of those decisions.

It's become popular to deliberately undercut expectations in this type of movie. Sometimes it's an effective choice, sometimes not.

This movie is actually a mixed bag, with certain very familiar and predictable elements, some elements that are deconstructed and examined critically, and other elements that are just unexpected.

 

[jmc]

It's not an automatic contradiction of course, but it's also just strange to me.

 

[Aximili86]

BVS didn't "deconstruct" jack, though.

That's the thing.

Honestly, I felt like TLJ didn't really "deconstruct" Star Wars, either, not the feeling I got walking out. It just is Star Wars, it's trying new stuff but while totally embracing what it's always been.

 

[DerekLake]

I agree with the broader idea that The Last Jedi suffers from The Force Awakens’s mistakes, but I don’t think it’s just because Rian Johnson undermined that film’s character choices.

The central story of Rey, Ben and Luke is quite good, with the exception of Snoke (who only seems to exist because JJ and Lucasfilm wanted another Palpatine), and it’s the only reason why TFA is as good as it is. But TFA hindered TLJ by rehashing the broader context of the Original Trilogy. I’m not just talking about Death Star 3.0 and the premature and poorly handled destruction of the New Republic, but also the Rebel Alliance 2.0 and the Empire 2.0 that are the Resistance and the First Order.

As I see it, neither the Resistance nor the First Order are as compelling as the Rebel Alliance and the Empire. This isn’t just about nostalgia, but these new incarnations don’t seem to actually embody the spirit of either entity, and that is the most painfully obvious thing in TLJ. By way of comparison, just look at Rogue One, which, despite a grittier aesthetic and other issues, actually manages to capture what makes the Rebel Alliance and Empire so memorable. And I don’t know if it’s the way the characters are written or the form their conflict takes, but the sequel trilogy has so far failed on that front.

I of course have lots of ideas for how TLJ could have been better, but I think the best thing they could have done would have been to make the B story about trying to stop the First Order’s conquest, rather than going for what they did. Since they didn’t do that here (or really in the first film), Episode IX really should be about an offensive Resistance taking on an ascendant, First Order Empire. An active, broader struggle would allow for much more creative opportunities, and more development for the main characters (especially Finn, who suffered the most from TLJ).

 

[RetroNaz]

I've seen the film four times now - and each time I've really immersed myself in the story and just learnt to enjoy this new set of stories as they are. The story is nothing like I expected it to be, but they're expectations I'm putting onto a film that are completely unrealistic.

I'm a lifelong fan and was originally appalled at some of the stuff I heard (spoilers) prior to seeing the film at release day.

The biggest problem with the Last Jedi for me personally, has been the fan backlash. I'm not saying this to spite peoples opinions or negate any feedback, but my goodness it's hard to enjoy the film and then try to share that joy with others only to find extreme negativity.

What an absolute buzzkill. And to make matters worse, there is a small minority that are blowing their dislike completely out of proportion - which I find embarrassing as a fan.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Thinking back to it now...

Two "authorities" in TFA give us insight and information that is in no way contradicted by TLJ. Maz and Han. Maz lays out the "revelation" in a way about Rey in TFA and lamp shades what her destiny will be. Han tells us about Luke's sense of owning the fall of Kylo to the dark side and the shame that accompanied it which led him to self exile. Like... It's right there in TFA.

 

[RetroNaz]

I agree with the broader idea that The Last Jedi suffers from The Force Awakens’s mistakes, but I don’t think it’s just because Rian Johnson undermined that film’s character choices.

The central story of Rey, Ben and Luke is quite good, with the exception of Snoke (who only seems to exist because JJ and Lucasfilm wanted another Palpatine), and it’s the only reason why TFA is as good as it is. But TFA hindered TLJ by rehashing the broader context of the Original Trilogy. I’m not just talking about Death Star 3.0 and the premature and poorly handled destruction of the New Republic, but also the Rebel Alliance 2.0 and the Empire 2.0 that are the Resistance and the First Order.

As I see it, neither the Resistance nor the First Order are as compelling as the Rebel Alliance and the Empire. This isn’t just about nostalgia, but these new incarnations don’t seem to actually embody the spirit of either entity, and that is the most painfully obvious thing in TLJ. By way of comparison, just look at Rogue One, which, despite a grittier aesthetic and other issues, actually manages to capture what makes the Rebel Alliance and Empire so memorable. And I don’t know if it’s the way the characters are written or the form their conflict takes, but the sequel trilogy has so far failed on that front.

I of course have lots of ideas for how TLJ could have been better, but I think the best thing they could have done would have been to make the B story about trying to stop the First Order’s conquest, rather than going for what they did. Since they didn’t do that here (or really in the first film), Episode IX really should be about an offensive Resistance taking on an ascendant, First Order Empire. An active, broader struggle would allow for much more creative opportunities, and more development for the main characters (especially Finn, who suffered the most from TLJ).

Yeah, I must admit it's difficult to really ascertain the scope of threat the First Order presents to the galaxy. Whereas it felt like the Empire was everywhere and controlled everything in the OT, I don't get the same sense from the First Order.

Particularly if they're unable to destroy what seems to be less than 100 Resistance fighters, full stop.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Yeah, I must admit it's difficult to really ascertain the scope of threat the First Order presents to the galaxy. Whereas it felt like the Empire was everywhere and controlled everything in the OT, I don't get the same sense from the First Order.

Particularly if they're unable to destroy what seems to be less than 100 Resistance fighters, full stop.

To be fair to the space fascists... They are the ones that whittled Leia's resistance force down to that 100 or less. And the First Order seems intimidating enough that no one answered the Resistance distress call, even with Leia's personal identity code attached. They also decapitated the New Republic in one fell swoop out of the blue in TFA.

 

[RetroNaz]

To be fair to the space fascists... They are the ones that whittled Leia's resistance force down to that 100 or less. And the First Order seems intimidating enough that no one answered the Resistance distress call, even with Leia's personal identity code attached. They also decapitated the New Republic in one fell swoop out of the blue in TFA.

This is all very true, and without any of that they wouldn't be much of a threat in the context of the narrative. It still doesn't feel big in terms of scale in comparison to the OT or PT though.

There's still a chance that Episode 9 will flesh this out a little more though. With the main OT cast gone it might open the story and expand on the war.

 

[Aximili86]

Yeah, The First Order's nowhere near what the Empire was. Doesn't the supplementary material basically say they have like a couple dozen Star Destroyers/capital ships max, compared to the Empire's hundreds, thousands?

Their domination seems to stem from that pretty huge sucker-punch they managed to pull off at the end of TFA. If that Republic fleet/capital and all the resources that came with it were still on the map, it'd be a pretty different story.

Galactic Empire: Space Nazis. First Order: fanatical Knights Templar, ISIS, whatever. Far fewer in number, but they'll do their damndest to make up for it through pure undiluted crazy. And they're supposedly filthy rich, being funded by those Canto Bight types. But they're clearly not the stranglehold-on-everything, everywhere, Empire level.

 

[DerekLake]

Yeah, I must admit it's difficult to really ascertain the scope of threat the First Order presents to the galaxy. Whereas it felt like the Empire was everywhere and controlled everything in the OT, I don't get the same sense from the First Order.

Particularly if they're unable to destroy what seems to be less than 100 Resistance fighters, full stop.

To be fair to the space fascists... They are the ones that whittled Leia's resistance force down to that 100 or less. And the First Order seems intimidating enough [BLACKOUT]that no one answered the Resistance distress call, even with Leia's personal identity code attached.[/BLACKOUT] They also decapitated the New Republic in one fell swoop out of the blue in TFA.

Well that’s just it. The galaxy is not as defined as it was even in the OT. In the OT, we know that there is a Galactic Empire that used to be a Republic, but we spend our time on the edge of the galaxy in space Iowa (Tatooine) and other remote systems. But even though we never see the Empire’s core world’s, the Imperial Navy is well-defined with enough background and foreground characters to give us a good enough sense of what the Empire is like and how it governs. We feel as though we know the threat of the Empire against the Rebellion, as well as the Rebellion’s struggle against the Empire. The Empire is the context of the OT, and therefore it’s a lot easier to imagine the threat the Empire posed, as well as the hope for which the Rebellion fought.

That just isn’t the same for the First Order. First, TFA does a poor job of establishing the context. We are barely introduced to the Republic before it is supposedly destroyed, giving us no reason to care. As a result, TLJ has no broader context, other than an amorphous First Order that supposedly has the capacity to take over the galaxy (but somehow hasn’t despite the tiny Resistance and a never-seen Republic navy). We are also left with a First Order that is represented solely by a Palpatine copy, a caricature of an Imperial officer, and a somewhat more compelling Vader wannabe, who nevertheless throws temper tantrums in TFA before becoming a much better character in TLJ. The First Order, like the Empire, could have been defined by its military apparatus, but we are given mostly empty caricatures aside from Kylo Ren.

I’m trying to stick to what we are shown on film rather than what we read in the books, but even there, the intervening years are just messy and not really all that compelling. The New Republic is very much defined by the failures of the Senate. The Resistance is formed in response to those failures solely to combat the First Order, and is therefore stuck between an undefined Republic (onscreen) and a poorly characterized First Order.

They never should have tried to replicate the Rebel Alliance or the Galactic Empire. I think this entire trilogy would have been far better if the Resistance actually was the underfunded volunteer militia of a noble but weak New Republic fighting against a First Order that was more like a reemerging Sith Empire than the Galactic Empire. The New Republic, led by Leia, could have been depicted a bit like the American Republic in its first 30-40 years, with its fall happening at the end of the second film (especially since the first film focuses solely on Rey). And the First Order could have been a much darker, “purer” version of the Empire more clearly inspired by Vader’s legend, with Snoke, Kylo AND the Knights of Ren leading it. Rey’s central story with Luke and Ben, which is the heart of this trilogy, could have remained almost exactly the same, but characters like Poe, Finn and even Leia could have perhaps shined a bit brighter.

 

[FunkMiller]

It's so bizarre to me seeing forum members who crapped on BvS for deconstructing the DC universe praising this deconstruction of the Star Wars universe.

Why, it’s almost as if one is the ninth movie in a franchise that’s spanned 40 years, and is ripe for a bit of self analysis... while the other was meant to start a franchise from scratch, and should have been constructing, not deconstructing.

This isn’t hard.

Now stop sullying this thread with mentions of that whopping turd.

 

[DeadPresident]

It's so bizarre to me seeing forum members who crapped on BvS for deconstructing the DC universe praising this deconstruction of the Star Wars universe.

A lot of similarities between BvS and TLJ are being reacted to in completely the opposite way.

Fact of the matter seems to be that due to accrued goodwill Disney and the the responsible creatives have to be cut all the slack in the world even when they produce something that oscillates between being bizarre and average to gripping and spectacular all in the same movie.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

While there's certainly questions about the exact political landscape of the galaxy in TFA and TLJ I thought we knew this about it (some of this comes from ancillary material but the basic gist is in the films):

The New Republic was established after the remnants of the Empire limped along until essentially what was left of the Imperial armed forces were forced to remote areas of the known galaxy. From there a cold war of sorts developed. The Imperial remnants are organized into the First Order, Snoke ascends to power. The First Order breaks treaties that had limited their military and territories. Systems under the authority of the First Order want to break away from them given their fascist government. The New Republic begins supporting the aspirations of these break away systems and thus the Resistance to the First Order is born. Leia takes a lead position in this group. The Resistance is not made up of New Republic military regulars despite the equipment and uniforms. Many players from the days of the old Rebellion against the Empire do take and active part in the Resistance though. The support that the Republic gives to these freedom fighters bites them on the ass as the First Order use massive amounts of resources to terraform a planet into a massive weapon with the ability to fire it's payload through hyperspace. They get to use this weapon effectively only once before it's destruction at the hands of the Resistance, but that's enough to essentially cripple beyond repair the Republic government and it's military. This leaves the Resistance as the only organized group that is left to defy the First Order, which is now free to in spite of losing it's super weapon, Star Killer Base, strike out from the systems firmly in it's control an overwhelm the remaining areas that were under Republic control.

At least that's how I understood it.

Now there is the aftermath of the events of TLJ, and where it goes from there in terms of what if anything is going to stand in the First Order's way is up in the air.

 

[hopeless]

Battlefront 2 spoiler

Spoiler

Project Resurrection is the codename for rebuilding the First Order military.
Organised the kidnapping of entire families and resources to build enough ships to retake the galaxy although they overlooked the fact that fleet should therefore be easier to detect!

So episode 9 opens with news of Princess Leia's death, the almost complete annihilation of the Resistance I wonder what those people who refused to answer her call for aid are thinking now?

Oh right Luke's dead and that was the only reason there was any survivors to report this!

 

[DerekLake]

Battlefront 2 spoiler

Spoiler

Project Resurrection is the codename for rebuilding the First Order military.
Organised the kidnapping of entire families and resources to build enough ships to retake the galaxy although they overlooked the fact that fleet should therefore be easier to detect!

So episode 9 opens with news of Princess Leia's death, the almost complete annihilation of the Resistance I wonder what those people who refused to answer her call for aid are thinking now?

Oh right Luke's dead and that was the only reason there was any survivors to report this!

I don’t know what the significance of Project Resurrection is. We know from Finn that they were taking children and making them Stormtroopers. We can assume from the opening crawl of TLJ that the First Order has enough ships to take over the galaxy (and yet have trouble taking out one more Resistance ship).

As for Episode IX, my guess is that it involves a new Rebel Alliance taking on a new Empire. It may start with the heroes recruiting allies, or they might already be recruited. Rey will be at Jedi Knight level after studying the Jedi texts, while Poe will be de facto leader after Leia’s death. My guess is that with Chris Terrio around, Episode IX will try to incorporate some of the themes and plot of MacBeth, with Kylo Ren descending into madness and greater tyranny and Hux leading his own rebellion against him. It’s the sort of thing Terrio likes (similar to his weaving of Hamlet’s themes and structure into Bruce Wayne’s BvS arc), and it is a perfect and natural direction in which to take Ben Solo. I wouldn’t be surprised if Luke haunts Ben throughout the film (it would fit with the way their relationship ends in TLJ).

 

[Orba]

Battlefront 2 spoiler

Spoiler

Project Resurrection is the codename for rebuilding the First Order military.
Organised the kidnapping of entire families and resources to build enough ships to retake the galaxy although they overlooked the fact that fleet should therefore be easier to detect!

So episode 9 opens with news of Princess Leia's death, the almost complete annihilation of the Resistance I wonder what those people who refused to answer her call for aid are thinking now?

Oh right Luke's dead and that was the only reason there was any survivors to report this!

A lot of the First Order military build up was carried out in the Unknown Regions, as far from the Republic as possible to avoid detection. Also you need to remember that a lot of the rise of the First Order was inspired by the rise of Nazi Germany following Germany's defeat in the First World War. Plenty could see the build up but for many there was a lot of apathy and a general lack of interest in getting involved in anything that might stir things up.

One thing to remember about the lack of a reaction to Leia's call for aid is that the film is set just days after the First Order destroyed an entire star system. Some might still not have really figured out just what happened, other will be in shock, there would be a lot of confusion. After the destruction of Alderaan the Empire pushed the idea that the planet had been destroyed accidently by a secret superweapon Alderaan had been developing (the story might have been different if the Rebels hadn't blown up the Deathstar).

 

[FunkMiller]

Off topic, but... Is Battlefront 2 worth getting? That entire loot crate nonsense has put me right off.