Sequels THE BLACK WIDOW (post-Avengers film starring Scarlett Johansson)

[Nave 'Torment']

No doubt that if you're here you've read today's SHH headline regarding the Kevin Feige announcement/promise that the team behind Marvel Studios is opting to move forward with a stand-alone BLACK WIDOW film with Scarlett Johansson.

For a long time now the Avengers' most prominent female member (sorry Wasp, Wanda, and Ms Marvel) has been treated as second-tier to the bigger guns in the business. It's not surprising, first and foremost she's a female superhero and unless you happen to be one of the conveniently-bodice-torn-babe that's ELEKTRA, there's little chance that you're going to get much respect in the comics world. Sad but true. Unlike the Ladies at DC, Marvel Babes are physically stronger (Jean Grey and the X-Women, Spider Woman, Sue Storm vs. Diana Prince, Lois Lane, Catwoman, and either Black Canary, Oracle or that blonde cheerleader), the subject is open to debate but the more recognizable Marvel Babes are indeed superhumans, whereas in DC the most recognizable ladies are (while being equally beautiful and brilliant to their Marvel foes) strong-women. For the Black Widow this serves as one of the main reasons why unsuspecting fans don't easily accept her -- she's a non-powered heroine in a super-powered community, and the leather-clad fanbase is already sold on Selina Kyle (or Elektra Nachios). It's even more baffling because (while a different character altogether) the persona of 'The Black Widow' dates back to the Golden Age - a female protagonist in a comic book who predates Wonder Woman, and we just let her become a cameo in an Iron Man sequel (okay fine this incarnation of the Widow debuted in IM, still doesn't make it right though).Coupled with the fact that she's also an ex-KGB spy, most fans these days just don't like the overtly Tom Clancy-esque "COLD WAR" b.s. making the Widow an anachronism of sorts.

I say NAY. And when David Hayter struggled hard to establish her spy-based anti-heroine tale of espionage in a script, I was more than thrilled. While that never saw the thaw of the sun, with IM2 we got a sneak peak at what a Widow film would look like, and I was more than just sold when I saw Johansson taking out the Hammer Guards in that sweep motion. It was a hint that there can be darker places in the Marvel Universe, that there are Marvel Knights or Maidens just as dark and realistic as those 'grim and gritty', cowl-totting goths at DC. More importantly, the Widow's very grounded approach contrasted with Tony Stark's robotics so much in that one pivotal moment, that it screamed a higher degree of realism. In fact, I was hoping they mention the Vanko-connection with the Black Widow, and when they didn't (which was okay for IM2, it kept the film focused) I started a short story on a Cinematic-Universe Black Widow.

With what we've heard today, it will hopefully not be just another fan-fiction anymore, but a reality. A Black Widow film would work brilliantly. Yes, there are skeptics as usual who underrate Johansson's ability as an actress, who question a strong female lead carrying a film (blind to such great examples as BUFFY, ALIAS, TOMB RAIDER or even RIPLEY who did the same thing through YEARS), and who are even more skeptical about a film in the spy-genre. Still there are those who think that a DAREDEVIL reboot is a better option given the dark nature of the character. DD comparisons are inevitable because the two characters are known to have shared more than just crossed paths in the comics, and I am a huge fan of DD, but I want this to be a Black Widow film -- Daredevil and Punisher can have their respective films if they want. There are those skeptics, but there are also supporters and fans who can nullify the delinquent rants.

I for one am looking forward to this, and if this is the first post-Avengers film that carries on the universe, then all the more better. Who knows? Maybe it'll be a Hawk Eye crossover film, or even include a more prominent Nick Fury and S.H.I.E.L.D. presence. It should be a spy-film after all.

And if they use the old David Hayter script that was just as dark and grim as ... oh I dunno, his adaptation of The Watchmen (or the first two X-Men films, or Ang Lee's quite-more-serious-when-compared-to-TIH 2003 film)? Then we'll be watching a spy film written by Solid Snake.

Let this be an opening thread to all things Scarlet (spidey excluded).​

 

[psylockolussus]

Black Widow and Hawkeye should get a solo movie after The Avengers.

 

[Madelow]

Hello all: I believe I'm going to agree with Nave Torment and the idea of a solo Black Widow film. The character has been well-introduced in Iron Man 2, and should get a further push in the Avengers film. I like the idea of a secret agent/spy format. Natasha working on asssignment for S.H.I.E.L.D. makes good sense (perhaps a larger role for Samuel L. Jackson this time). Sure hope they go forward with this Black Widow idea. Best regards, Madelow.

 

[psylockolussus]

The lack of comments is uninspiring.

Black Widow should get a solo origin-movie! and so is Hawkeye!

 

[DrCosmic]

Excellent post. A few thoughts:

1) The examples you selected were either TV, only moderately successful or from another era, in additoin to being done by top notch creators who also have an interest in female heroines. That's a tall order. Better examples would be the surge of female spy action of late. Salt and the upcoming Haywire. These things show a modern audience can handle and enjoy female spies. Still, keep in mind these are not runaway successes, and they'll be budgeted and marketed with that in mind.

2) You can't nullify skeptics with mere logic, unfortunately. Just because something 'can' work doesn't mean that it 'will' and that's a big deal to someone with 120M to lose. They have to be nullified with truth: this *does* work. Spy films are (almost?) always successful, with the longest running movie franchise being a spy one. I know I'm preaching to the choir, but that's just an example.

2) I'm not buying ex-KGB as her storyline in the present day, since that operation closed down, at least officially, in 1991. So she'd have to be, what, 35, if she was with them at age 15? She doesn't looks 35 and they don't recruit 15 year olds. Too much of a stretch. You'd have to have some sort of quasi-fictional russian organization, even if it's strongly based on the KGB, even if you give it that name, you have to come up with some believable storyline why it's still running.

3) A good story might be her infiltrating AIM, with her principal foe being MODOK. It might be interesting. Which means, if you go with a whole russian background organization, that has to tie in with AIM. Perhaps the same organization? Could be interesting. It'll be even more interesting to see how they handle her emotional storyline. Usually betrayal and killing a loved one are involved. In the comics, she was married to Alexi Shaskatov, the Red Guardian, and so the idea of her thinking he's dead, only to find out he's MODOK's brainwashed enforcer whom she has to kill before taking down the mad scientist... that could be pretty heavy. What do you think?

4) It's good to include SHIELD in the supporting cast, but also important to isolate female heroines since so often when a male hero is on screen, the female tends to be overshadowed. It's also a good place to introduce SHIELD members who aren't featured in the Avengers.

5) Again, great thread.

 

[Pinky021]

It will be nice, but I'd like to keep it tied to the MCU, and bring Hawkeye on board,, and perhaps other heroes...

 

[DrCosmic]

There's a difference between it being tied to the MCU and it having the whole MCU in it. I could see Hawkeye, but everyone else has no business in a story focused on Black Widow.

 

[Cheshire1996]

Bucky? If they do go ahead with a solo for Black Widow be interesting if they explored her past, they've shown us how Cap came to be Cap, how Ironman came to be Ironman, personally I would love to see how Black Widow came to be Black Widow. I think including too many other heroes would take away from the aspect of it being a solo film for Widow, but Bucky could have a rightful role, as could Hawkeye.

Of course, it is post Avengers, so they might not go with the backstory, but I think it's a great idea. Especially seeing as they seem to have films for all the main characters they plan to use in the Avengers besides Widow and Hawkeye.

 

[DrCosmic]

^Yeah, it'd have to have flashbacks and work her origin into the story I think, but I'm sure it's not going to be set before Avengers.

 

[Cheshire1996]

That would confuzzled people I think. Flashbacks would work, especially if they were bringing back characters from her past...as they seem to do

But, yes, I'd go to see a Black Widow film if it was released. I think it would just be downright cool to have separate films for all of the characters, even if they add Hawkeye into a Black Widow film as a prominent character/love interest/partner/whatever works with the plot.

 

[Silvermoth]

I'ld love to see a Black Widow movie. Crazy thought, Sofia Coppola managed to get Scarlett to emote in 'Lost in Translation'. Wonder if she would be interested in a dark gritty Black Widow origin?

It doesn't even have to be an origin. It could be about a mission with a few flashbacks.

 

[marcvader]

I would prefer Black Widow be paired with either Hawkeye or be part of SHIELD and feature Coulson, Hill, and/or Fury.

 

[cherokeesam]

I would prefer Black Widow be paired with either Hawkeye or be part of SHIELD and feature Coulson, Hill, and/or Fury.

And Sharon Carter.

 

[Nave 'Torment']

It could work well if they focus on how she gets recruited by S.H.I.E.L.D. I'm hoping to see AIM in it as well? What were some of the more significant story-arcs in the comics?

 

[OsGom]

I like what i'm seeing here. Natasha is a GREAT character and deserves her own film. However, it might be more plausible to roll her out in a Black Widow vs. SHIELD type story where she is forced to go rogue, perhaps as a double double agent of sorts. Similar to her story in Earth's Mightiest. It still incorporates current continuity and allows Fury and Barton to be featured and explored as well. As she eludes pursuit we explore her character and history. We could still keep the Aim/Modok/Red Guardian angle. I think that works well.

 

[Nave 'Torment']

One of the obstacles a movie like this will face, though, is the fact that people will be comparing it with SALT.

 

[marcvader]

I like what i'm seeing here. Natasha is a GREAT character and deserves her own film. However, it might be more plausible to roll her out in a Black Widow vs. SHIELD type story where she is forced to go rogue, perhaps as a double double agent of sorts. Similar to her story in Earth's Mightiest. It still incorporates current continuity and allows Fury and Barton to be featured and explored as well. As she eludes pursuit we explore her character and history. We could still keep the Aim/Modok/Red Guardian angle. I think that works well.

Yeah, I could see a "The Fugitive" type of movie with SHIELD and KGB after her.

 

[OsGom]

One of the obstacles a movie like this will face, though, is the fact that people will be comparing it with SALT.

I don't know if that is an obstacle or a benefit. I would be concerned if Salt had sucked.

 

[Nave 'Torment']

Salt was a good blockbuster movie. But it was also very generic, especially when you consider spy-stories and the such. The best part of it was the final act when things became unpredictable, so that's a good thing. But the rest of the movie had that all-too-familiar "hero vs. former-agency-who-knows-everything-about-me" vibe. Just sayin.

 

[Nave 'Torment']

(S. Campbell)

 

[Nave 'Torment']

They could go a number of ways with the solo film. Thing about Black Widow is that she's the sort of character who dwells the world of espionage and conspiracies. Even if you set the film solely within the Marvel Cinematic Universe, you can always add in a backstory to HYDRA. Maybe both Hawkeye and Black Widow were, instead of KGB, former HYDRA members? It gives the writers some opportunity to follow-up on what we've seen in The First Avenger, but at the same time if they wish to explore a more realistic setting, the less jazzy HYDRA under Baronstuckler (this guy

) could add some sense of how the organisation has fallen form its glory days under the Red Skull. Keeping their reappearance as a central plot, we could go to flashbacks where BW is recruited by SHIELD, and what that means to her in the current story (set post Avengers maybe?)

In addition to all that, I would love to see a more thorough look at the Black Widow character as she's been published, heck even bring on the original golden age version as a possible antagonist:

Her name is 'Claire Voyant' (believe it) and she was one of the first female superpowered crime-fighters in the Golden Age. In addition to that, she was a touch Satanic and killed off guy guys for Lucifer to consume in the afterlife (before they repent that is).

Romanova's plight as she discovers her past returning to plague the present can also be made a touch more emotional with her one-time hubby, the ex-Russian pilot and super-soldier, "Red Guardian".

The possibilities are all there, we just need to figure out how to tackle her crazy past with the timeline of a post-Avengers story. I'd like the story to go forwards so as not simply be a linear "Black Widow gets recruited by SHIELD" story, but be more than that. I don't think people would want a prequel with this. But most importantly, and this sets the tone of the entire movie, it should be a conspiracy story set in contemporary times.

 

[Nave 'Torment']

To round off the posts, I've been reading a few headlines on exactly what the Russian Espionage Ring is like post-Cold War. The results are a bit alarming and at the same time conflicting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...onage_in_the_United_States#Post-Soviet_period

If read the wiki entry on the Post-Soviet espionage, we see that the the spies are actually more powerfully integrated into foreign nations. With globalisation and a political hegemony contrasting with multi-cultural trade, the spy culture seems to be more immersed into international politics than ever before. Remember Ridley Scott's Body of Lies?

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/30/world/europe/30spy.html

Next up we have this article by NY Times telling us that spies are way to blended and that it's inherently meaningless to fret about such a thing in this day and age where political transparency is at an all-time high. Good stuff from a national paper, you actually want to feel safe right? I'm sure we can come up with some conspiracy theories on how this is not the case.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jul/01/russian-spy-ring-russia

UK's The Guardian, on the other hand, reports a more cautionary article on an alleged "spy-ring" in the US of A. This trial places Russian spies at an almost neighbourhood-level, where even the people at the PTA are agents working with a cohesive motive. I know this doesn't make for good action stories, but the suggestion that Russian spies are dwelling in the suburbs as active agents, integrated so well into American society that they are invisible, adds a sense of realism and drama to the tale.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/10/21/russian-espionage-still-threat-british-agent-tells-uk-court/

The last thing I'm gonna bore you guys with is FoxNews' report on this 26-year-old Russian babe threatening British political stability by effecting both NATO and a 65-year-old lib.dem. for info that she sent back to her Kremlin superiors. If that's not classic spy forte, with a touch of sexy and a hint of online-Freudian-Slips, I dunno what is.

Just food for thought guys. I think the BW script can really work out if enough people believe in it. The material almost writes itself.

 

[GoldGoblin]

People would not like a solo movie of BW,she is just eye candy,too much candy will make you sick.

 

[kedrell]

I'ld love to see a Black Widow movie. Crazy thought, Sofia Coppola managed to get Scarlett to emote in 'Lost in Translation'. Wonder if she would be interested in a dark gritty Black Widow origin?

It doesn't even have to be an origin. It could be about a mission with a few flashbacks.

You do realize that BW as a character isn't all that much of an emoter. She's a hard-ass/uber-professional who's in control at all times. The last thing I want to see is a sobby Black Widow.

 

[marcvader]

Maybe the comment was made to illustrate how good she is? Scarlet leaves a lot to be desired in the acting department.