BvS The BvS Ultimate Cut Thread - Part 2

[Broseph44]

Great. Misslane and Whatupman are filling the thread with novels again.

 

[NeoRanger]

So I never saw the theatrical....


1. So did Lex deduce Clark was Supes and Bruce was Batman pre-movie?

2. Kahina Ziri--the woman that got killed by being shoved in front of a subway--where did she live? She had an apartment she hadn't been to in Gotham but I thought she was in Africa during the opening events?

Yes on 1. As for 2, she was probably a Gotham City resident, but Finch said her parents are 'back home', so she was a native of that African village. She had probably gone under the radar after the incident and while working with Lex.

 

[chintai80]

Great. Misslane and Whatupman are filling the thread with novels again.

yea, i'm at work. too much to read.

 

[Jekecy]

Guys, it literally takes a flick of the finger to skip past them.

 

[Da-Scribe]

Guys, it literally takes a flick of the finger to skip past them.

That's too much work. I don't want to have to burn so many finger calories.

 

[Jekecy]

That's too much work. I don't want to have to burn so many finger calories.

Very true. Gotta save it for when it's actually needed for thorough exercise.

 

[misslane38]

"Fighting" was the wrong word to use on my part. I meant that I didn't buy Superman's reasoning for engaging in a conflict with Batman. But, actually, you saying that it was because of selfish reasons, makes me understand it a little bit more. Batman gave heroes a bad name, meaning he gave Superman a bad name. It makes Superman look a little bit pathetic, but I can at least understand his reasoning better now.

It's "pathetic" to stand up for yourself, for hope and good, so that heroes can be there to save people from natural disasters and evil in all its forms? It's "pathetic" to use the press to expose an abuse of power and to attempt to end that abuse of power? Just because the ends Clark hopes to achieve also happen to benefit him does not mean that he's the sole beneficiary. He wants to preserve the public good because it's good for him and good for others. His motivations are complex, which means his characterization is complex.

But Wonder Woman isn't even the one who meets the Flash in that scene, so that scene has no impact on Wonder Woman's journey.

I didn't mention anything about Flash. Wonder Woman's journey does not depend on Flash or his call for Batman to "Find us!" Her journey, by itself, is about a mysterious woman who has chosen to step away from her power and her heroic mission because she no longer believed good people could stand together in this world to someone who is willing to join the fight and recruit others to fight alongside her. She is the proof that the resolution of the Batman v Superman conflict is necessary for there to be a dawn of justice. Her journey is a microcosm that every subsequent new hero will take: having witnessed a fight between god and man in which both find common ground, other heroes will take their own first steps into the light and into the fight.

So Batman wants to kill Superman partly because he drove Wallace to become a suicide bomber, but he doesn't take responsibility himself, even though Wallace put some blame on him, and yet thinks that killing Superman is a redemptive act? Batman doesn't really make sense, does he?

According to Bruce who receives the checks from Lex, Wallace put some blame on him, but Wallace, as Bruce understands it, blames him because he failed to protect his family. For Bruce, the only way to redeem himself from this failure is to protect the world from Superman even if it kills him. Wallace blames Bruce for not protecting him from the fallout Superman leaves in his wake, so Bruce can best square things for Keefe by acting against Superman. It makes perfect sense. If a mother blames a cop for not protecting her son from gang violence, then the best thing that guilty cop can do to make things right is to take on the gang that killed her son. The only thing the cop and Bruce take responsibility for is their respective inaction or inadequate action, so the act of taking responsibility and accepting blame demands finally dealing with the problem.

But that still means that Batman stopped trying to kill Superman because their mother's shared the same name. If Superman's mother would have had another name, which wouldn't have ignited Batman's own humanity, he would have killed Superman. That is ridiculous.

It's not about the damn name! Batman doesn't truly stop fighting until Lois tells him that it's Superman's mother's name. The actual name "Martha" seemed to enrage Bruce further; it didn't calm him. Learning that name was of the mother Superman wanted to protect with his last words is what made all the difference.

Well, I don't see how engaging in a fight with Batman was a better alternative.

Superman was told that he couldn't save his mother unless he brought Lex the head of the Batman. Any attempts to find her or rescue would mean certain death. So Superman either needed to get someone else to save her, or he needed to follow Lex's orders. He had two choices: join together with Batman to save Martha OR kill Batman and save Martha. Superman started with the first option, the better option, of course. Batman's refusal to listen to reason, however, drew Superman into a fight in which he still attempted to primarily defend himself long enough to subdue Batman and try again to find in him an ally. Batman still cannot be quieted, and Superman ultimately finds himself in a deadly battle with someone he hoped would have been able to see reason. What other alternative was available to Superman? He could have sought out another ally, but that would have taken time he did not have. He could have risked rescuing his mother himself, by why not try Batman first? I suppose after the first entreaty failed, he could have endeavored to save his mother, but there was still no reason for Superman to believe Lex was bluffing about his safeguards. What would you have suggested he do?

Right, so she's in it because of Justice League, not because it serves this story.

The story is served by featuring a resolution that establishes a dawn of justice. This story was about the world's response to metahumans and gods among men. It was about whether or not heroes could stand together rather than stand apart against a mutual foe: a devilish puppetmaster. Wonder Woman, as a demigod who abandoned her heroic mission on Earth because she lost hope that heroes could stand together, is tangible proof that the world is ready for heroes and heroes are ready to be heroes. If Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice were the last film in the DCEU, then Wonder Woman's role would not only remain vital, it would indeed be more important than ever.

I wouldn't have a problem with Bruce's hypocrisy if someone actually called him on it. And considering he was able to kill Superman if he wanted to, you could make the argument that he's more dangerous than Superman.

Alfred called Bruce out on his own hypocrisy and mania throughout the entire film. He's the one who warned Bruce that his grudge against Superman was the stuff that turns good men cruel.

Yeah, you're right about it actually being Lex's fault, I shouldn't blame Superman for that. But there's definitely worse people than Batman who needs to be stopped, and Superman has to see that. But if we go by the reason that he acts because he's being selfish, then I can understand it more.

I'm sure there are worse people than Batman who need to be stopped, but those people were not in this film. Had the film presented Clark as choosing Batman over a fictional villain like Brainiac or a real world villain like ISIS, then the film would have ill-served Superman. It's not even like Superman should intervene in dealing with the "worse people" of the world because then we're getting into Injustice Superman or Justice Lord Superman territory. That's more a job for the Clark's and Lois's of the world. I find it difficult to fault Clark, as a fledgling reporter, for taking on a relatively local and current threat to civil liberties.

 

[A Necessary Evil]

My question is...how did Lex find that out? Is everyone just that goddamn lazy with their secret identities?

 

[_Superman_]

My question is...how did Lex find that out? Is everyone just that goddamn lazy with their secret identities?

Or could it be Lex is just that smart. People tend to forget that Lex along with Superman have a genius intellect. However Superman's is more down played to make him more relatable however it's been said both men are capable of curing all known diseases if possible. So finding out who they are is not hard especially when most of the events in MOS was started at the Kent Farm.

 

[TeeKay]

I'd have liked to see Lex deduce Bruce's identity. I'm sure it was easy for him to know who Superman is.

 

[VelcroWallet]

In the BvS Ultimate Edition, Lex is prisoner AC231940.

Action Comics #23, 1940: Lex's first appearance in comics.

 

[TX85]

Awesome nod right there!

 

[Binker]

Question: in the question of how Lex knows Bruce is Batman, and why he hates Superman, why not just reveal that Lex Sr. was a Batman villain?

And thus in his defeats, he abused his son to let the rage out, which is why Lex prayed but got no help from "God", and took matters into his own hands.

Hence, Lex Luthor already hates Batman and Superman when BvS starts.

 

[Da-Scribe]

Question: in the question of how Lex knows Bruce is Batman, and why he hates Superman, why not just reveal that Lex Sr. was a Batman villain?

And thus in his defeats, he abused his son to let the rage out, which is why Lex prayed but got no help from "God", and took matters into his own hands.

Hence, Lex Luthor already hates Batman and Superman when BvS starts.

But Lex doesn't need to hate Batman. Nothing in the story warrants that emotion. And how would that explain how he knows Batman is Bruce?

 

[NeoRanger]

I'd have liked to see Lex deduce Bruce's identity. I'm sure it was easy for him to know who Superman is.

Why was it easy for him to know who Superman is?

 

[Da-Scribe]

I could buy that Lex managed to track their travel patterns. They did something like that on The Flash series. Also, Batman is just obvious. What guy in this broke ass city has the funds and resources to troll criminals at night? Probably the one rich dude in Gotham that's built like a tank and has a chip on his shoulder the size of two dead parents.

 

[NeoRanger]

But Lex doesn't need to hate Batman. Nothing in the story warrants that emotion.

I agree with this.

However, there is an aspect of Lex's character that's not brought up a lot; he sees Superman as both a tyrant and a father figure. The bad kind of father figure. Intermixed in the free market of both money and ideas (this Lex is very much -in part- the Silver Age mad scientist) is a hatred for authority figures that can potentially limit him and deliver another "fist that nobody will save him from". If Superman can squash him, while at the same time being an arbitrary authority of right and wrong, Lex perhaps is also trying to posthumously tear down his father. Proving that Superman is a fraud (as he put it) may give him peace of mind in regards to his clear hatred for his father and his relationship with him. Which is why he sics his own son, Doomsday, on him.

 

[Logan0327]

they should of had Lex Sr. be killed in the battle of metropolis

 

[matt47]

I was watching the UC the other day and my friend (Dylan) and his girlfriend came over just as the the emails scene was starting. Dylan doesn't know much about comics (he thought the mech suit was made out of adamantium) and she really doesn't know anything about them.
We were still chatting while the Flash clip was happening but then the Aquaman one came on and they were really really surprised when I told them it was Aquaman.
The BvS fight started happening and Dylan's girlfriend really hated Batman for beating on Supes, Dylan was rooting for Batman because he feels like Superman is perfect.
It's funny because by the time the movie ended they kind of swapped sides. Dylan's girlfriend liked Batman now and Dylan was gobsmacked that Supes actually died.

Oh and his girfriend said when Superman was dead, "Even when he's dead he looks amazing!"

 

[AnneFan]

My friend was meh about Superman before seeing the film. But afterwards I think they felt kicked in the guts, and inquired about the Death of Superman comic.

 

[WoodyROM]

My friend was meh about Superman before seeing the film. But afterwards I think they felt kicked in the guts, and inquired about the Death of Superman comic.

The Capitol scene was also always powerful/painful to me, but the UC had me in tears. To be in that position, with all of Supes power, but be helpless to stop it...I can't imagine.

 

[TX85]

I still wonder how Lex knew lead was a weakness for superman, After the reveal I wanted to shout to Supes that it was lead and that's why he couldn't see it. Not his fault damn it!

 

[Sleiek]

I think Lex somehow found out by doing some research on kryptonite and Batman found out (and used Lead based smoke grenade) by looking through Lex's kryptonite research files that he stole.

 

[TX85]

Yeah probably that

 

[KillerMcQueen]

Could be him taking a gamble on Superman not being able to see through it in the same way that X-rays have trouble with lead.