The Amazing Spider-Man 2 The Connection Between the Chamber of 6, Fedora Guy and The Vulture/Doc Ock Harnesses

[Picard Sisko]

If you're talking about Orci, that's not the case. He said Spider-man 4 would be it's own thing, as would the spinoffs. Here's the direct excerpt from IGN.

IGN: There are release dates through Spider-Man 4. Will that be a continuation of the Spider-Man franchise or might what we're calling The Amazing Spider-Man 4 be a placeholder for Sinister Six or Venom?

Orci: There were three superheroes I loved when I was a kid: Superman, Wonder Woman and Spider-Man. I think it's such a popular character, and when I see my friend's kids, I remember why somehow, it sinks into kid's brains. So no, I think with Spider-Man 4, the intention is for it to be "Spider-Man."

The point he was trying to make is that TASM4 is actually TASM4, and the spin-offs are their own thing as well, as you said. They don't know the order of the movies yet though.

if they fight spidey in TASM 4 then if they plan on using venom in a vs spider-man movie he will likely suffer for that because they will have to put it all into one film, they obviously wanna use venom pretty soon though because they already got plans for it

I'm not sure what you mean?

There were no plans for Venom before the announcement, at least not that we would know of.

 

[Spideyfan117]

if they fight spidey in TASM 4 then people cant really complain when it comes to venom if they plan on using venom in a vs spider-man movie because he will likely suffer for that because they will have to put it all into one film, they obviously wanna use venom pretty soon though because they already got plans for it

Or there won't be a Spidey vs. Venom film. If there is, it would likely be after the vs S6 one. And at that point, many of the characters will be recast. They wouldn't have to recast Venom of course, considering he'll be later in the series anyways.

 

[Spideyfan117]

The point he was trying to make is that TASM4 is actually TASM4, and the spin-offs are their own thing as well, as you said. They don't know the order of the movies yet though.

Right. That's what i was getting at. Orci never said anything about the spinoffs coming after TASM4. He never mentioned the order at all.

 

[GuestStar2004]

I'm not sure what you mean?

There were no plans for Venom before the announcement, at least not that we would know of.

yeah but obviously they will wanna connect it to a spider-man movie before that, so either venom will fight spidey before the spin off or after the spin off, but fans won't want another compacted 1 movie black suit and venom story so then you get the idea it would have to be 2 films the way it should have been with SM3 so at what point do you introduce venom or the black suit? in these next 2 movies? or skip over the blacksuit story (which wont please some fans) and just do venom?

andrew may not be back for a 5th so how far can you forshadow in a 4th movie and not try and give a fresh feel for a new actor

 

[Nicko-Ray]

I just realized (and am thankful for) that it seems TASM4 will be a Spider-Man movie. Marc said a whole ago that it might not focus on him.
I'm thankful because I think I definitely want 3 Spider-Man films after TASM1. That movie just tipped the ball into the bowling lane. Now to get some strikes.

 

[Picard Sisko]

yeah but obviously they will wanna connect it to a spider-man movie before that, so either venom will fight spidey before the spin off or after the spin off, but fans won't want another compacted 1 movie black suit and venom story so then you get the idea it would have to be 2 films the way it should have been with SM3 so at what point do you introduce venom or the black suit? in these next 2 movies? or skip over the blacksuit story (which wont please some fans) and just do venom?

andrew may not be back for a 5th so how far can you forshadow in a 4th movie and not try and give a fresh feel for a new actor

Well wait, we don't know exactly what's going on yet. Here is how I think it could work:

1. Sinister Six film developing the team, building motivations, etc.
2. TASM4 - Spider-Man uses black suit to defeat them, gets rid of it by the end.
3. Venom - focuses on Eddie Brock's backstory up to him getting the suit and fighting Spider-Man, getting revenge, etc.

Then more Spider-Man movies...

 

[Picard Sisko]

I just realized (and am thankful for) that it seems TASM4 will be a Spider-Man movie. Marc said a whole ago that it might not focus on him.
I'm thankful because I think I definitely want 3 Spider-Man films after TASM1. That movie just tipped the ball into the bowling lane. Now to get some strikes.

TASM1 was the seed. TASM2 is the trunk. The spin-offs are the branches that come out with leaves.

Then each addition to the MAIN Spider-Man film series adds onto the trunk and makes it taller, and bigger. And since this is meant to be a long-term Spider-Man series, we will probably keep getting more Spider-Man movies after TASM4. I doubt we will see a reboot anytime soon. Just make this a James Bond style franchise and keep replacing the actor when necessary.

 

[GuestStar2004]

Or there won't be a Spidey vs. Venom film. If there is, it would likely be after the vs S6 one. And at that point, many of the characters will be recast. They wouldn't have to recast Venom of course, considering he'll be later in the series anyways.

so they are already planning the spin off before the recast? that means they can't have that many ties to TASM3 or 4 because the new actors would need a slightly new feel so it didn't feel like they were continuing another actors story and that will be 2020 that a 5th would be out and according to what you say they wouldn't have to recast venom or eddie brock or whoever is venom because he will likely be a new actor and then do a spin off, so unless they skip the black suit and just have venom before he meets spidey then i honestly don't think they will wait that long to bring venom into a spider-man movie

 

[GuestStar2004]

Well wait, we don't know exactly what's going on yet. Here is how I think it could work:

1. Sinister Six film developing the team, building motivations, etc.
2. TASM4 - Spider-Man uses black suit to defeat them, gets rid of it by the end.
3. Venom - focuses on Eddie Brock's backstory up to him getting the suit and fighting Spider-Man, getting revenge, etc.

Then more Spider-Man movies...

So venom would be about him going after spider-man? that don't sound right to me tbh, you might aswell just make it a spider-man movie rather then beat around the bush and say yeah but this ain't a spider-man movie this a venom movie... with spider-man in it

 

[Spideyfan117]

so they are already planning the spin off before the recast? that means they can't have that many ties to TASM3 or 4 because the new actors would need a slightly new feel so it didn't feel like they were continuing another actors story and that will be 2020 that a 5th would be out and according to what you say they wouldn't have to recast venom or eddie brock or whoever is venom because he will likely be a new actor and then do a spin off, so unless they skip the black suit and just have venom before he meets spidey then i honestly don't think they will wait that long to bring venom into a spider-man movie

I don't pretend to know exactly what's going on. I'm speculating in the most logical way I possibly can. There are certain things that need to be considered from a film-making and story-telling standpoint. And that's what I'm looking at in this case. When I consider those factors, the order you suggest (TASM3 = Sinister Six, Sinister Six and Venom Spinoffs later) don't make too much sense.

When they recast James Bond they don't spoonfeed you information again. They rely on your familiarity with the characters that were portrayed by different actors previously. They don't shrug off parts of the story that were already told in previous installments. So I don't really see how that's something we need to factor in. Recasts can be a little jarring at first, but the story (especially a story about a well-known character) keeps the same elements which allows for the recast to be accepted.

 

[GuestStar2004]

truth be told the eggs have been planted in this film for the sinister 6 so they could make TASM3 the sinister 6 vs spider-man, and introduce doc ock and vulture there then continue their characters in a solo movie, its not the popular view because people wanna see them fight spidey solo first but i think exceptions will have to be made given this film series and the route its going which is gonna likely abide by its own rules

now i'm just saying its a very realistic possibility

 

[spider_shadow]

Well wait, we don't know exactly what's going on yet. Here is how I think it could work:

1. Sinister Six film developing the team, building motivations, etc.
2. TASM4 - Spider-Man uses black suit to defeat them, gets rid of it by the end.
3. Venom - focuses on Eddie Brock's backstory up to him getting the suit and fighting Spider-Man, getting revenge, etc.

Then more Spider-Man movies...

Actually,I don't think will be Spiderman vs Venom.I believe it will focus on Eddie Brock but it will be about him doing crimes as Venom and his relationship with symbiote.

 

[GuestStar2004]

When I consider those factors, the order you suggest (TASM3 = Sinister Six, Sinister Six and Venom Spinoffs later) don't make too much sense.

yeah i understand that and yeah it kinda does feel like rushing it abit to do it in a 3rd, but i wouldn't say its unlikely that they may do it for a 3rd movie, Sony and co basically know they can get a buzz from having the sinister 6, the writers may be confident enough to feel they can introduce 2 villains with the thought to do more with them in a solo film

i don't think sony, the writers and webb may see it the same way as fans thats the thing

but we will see what happens, just talk of spin off sounds to me like they have plans to use them in some degree in next 2 films to me

 

[Spideyfan117]

Actually,I don't think will be Spiderman vs Venom.I believe it will focus on Eddie Brock but it will be about him doing crimes as Venom and his relationship with symbiote.

That's kinda what I think too. It is, after all, a Venom movie, not a Spider-man movie. It's a little more difficult to speculate about Venom for me, though. We know certain things about Sinister Six. But so far Venom is a no-show.

 

[Super Jim]

Look, this one is kind of easy to figure out...

To film a movie on this nature you need to start filming around a year and a half prior to the release. They started filming TASM2 in what, February of 2013?

They are not filming anything right now, nor are there any immediate plans for filming, so that means there won't be a Sinister Six or a Venom solo or spin off before TASM3.

So TASM3 will start filming around a year from now. Some are trying to argue that they can't do Sinister Six in TASM3 because of character development, but you need to realize that TASM2 includes a lot of this needed development.

Harry Goblin is quite possibly going to get away at the end of TASM2. If he does he'll be part of the S6. If he does not get away then Norman will be used to replace him, and there will be plenty of character development with Norman. But logically, Harry-Goblin getting away makes more sense.

We know that Giamatti will be back based on his interview. That means that Rhino will be back. Will it still be Mech Rhino, or will he go through a cross-species transformation remains to be seen. Effectively, if the Mech-Rhino gets away in TASM2 then it will be back in TASM3. If the machine is taken down and Aleskei either escapes or is put in Ravenscroft, he will be back in TASM and they may even (I would love to see this) have him go through a cross-species transformation.

Otto Octavius is very important to the Sinister Six for many of us. Webb will not use him like he was used in Spiderman2. He won't be a good guy who was in an accident who couldn't control himself because of the influence of sentient arms. Instead he will likely be an Engineer at Oscorp who invented the arms, if not many of the different things that will effect the future. If they make him the man in the shadows, like I've been speculating, then he will be developed in TASM2 and will be ready to don the arms and help to bring the S6 together, and possibly even lead them, taking his orders from Norman.

That gives us three who would have already been developed. So who would be the other three?

Well we know Vulture makes sense and we've seen the wings. Developing this character could be nothing more than showing us, possibly in a post credits scene, someone introduced in TASM2 being worked on by Otto. The wings could be grafted to this character, or it is simply a harness to put on. My guess is that Adrian Toomes or another (Drago or Shallot) will be introduced in TASM2, so the character development will be there.

We're at 4.

Now the hard thing is dealing with so many bad guys in the course of one movie. I've argued that by using anti-heroes as part of the group you can have them as part of the Six but they switch sides and effectively help Spidey. Black Cat makes a lot of sense, as could COnnors.

And here is the one I'm not looking forward to. It makes a lot of sense for them to show us one of the cells with some black goo inside. The Venom symbiote makes a lot of sense. This would likely mean no Eddie Brock and no Peter having the black suit first. Believe me, I would rather Peter having the black suit for a full movie, and maybe it's still possible, but likely Venom will round out the Six, which will set him up by the end of TASM3 to be the next big villain.

That gives us the Six.

It would also enable them to have either a solo movie with Venom prior to TASM4, where Venom is the big bad, or it could end up being Spidey versus Venom in the "Venom movie" and then a team-up in TASM4 versus Carnage.

Personally I would like to see it like this:

(2016) TASM3 = Spidey versus the Sinister Six
(2018) TASM4 = Spidey versus Venom
(2019) Venom 1 = Venom versus Sin Eater or something
(2020) TASM5 = Venom and Spiderman team-up versus Carnage

As you can see no where did I define a Sinister Six stand alone flick. Just doesn't make a lot of sense. But I can see the anti-hero movie of Venom, which could help to set up Carnage in TASM5. I could also see them try to make TASM4 the Carnage movie with Venom and Spidey teamed up, but this would mean Venom is definitely part of the Sinister Six.

But the main point is that the Sinister Six makes a lot of sense for TASM3 and the character development required has already started and isn't as bad as people are making it out to be.

 

[Spideyfan117]

Look, this one is kind of easy to figure out...

To film a movie on this nature you need to start filming around a year and a half prior to the release. They started filming TASM2 in what, February of 2013?

They are not filming anything right now, nor are there any immediate plans for filming, so that means there won't be a Sinister Six or a Venom solo or spin off before TASM3.

There was a recent report that TASM3 starts filming later this year (October, I believe).

So TASM3 will start filming around a year from now. Some are trying to argue that they can't do Sinister Six in TASM3 because of character development, but you need to realize that TASM2 includes a lot of this needed development.

Harry Goblin is quite possibly going to get away at the end of TASM2. If he does he'll be part of the S6. If he does not get away then Norman will be used to replace him, and there will be plenty of character development with Norman. But logically, Harry-Goblin getting away makes more sense.

We know that Giamatti will be back based on his interview. That means that Rhino will be back. Will it still be Mech Rhino, or will he go through a cross-species transformation remains to be seen. Effectively, if the Mech-Rhino gets away in TASM2 then it will be back in TASM3. If the machine is taken down and Aleskei either escapes or is put in Ravenscroft, he will be back in TASM and they may even (I would love to see this) have him go through a cross-species transformation.

Otto Octavius is very important to the Sinister Six for many of us. Webb will not use him like he was used in Spiderman2. He won't be a good time who was in an accident who couldn't control himself because of the influence of sentient arms. Instead he will likely be an Engineer at Oscorp who invented the arms, if not many of the different things that will effect the future. If they make him the man in the shadows, like I've been speculating, then he will be developed in TASM2 and will be ready to don the arms and help to bring the S6 together, and possibly even lead them, taking his orders from Norman.

That gives us three who would have already been developed. So who would be the other three?

Well we know Vulture makes sense and we've seen the wings. Developing this character could be nothing more than showing us, possibly in a post credits scene, someone introduced in TASM2 being worked on by Otto. The wings could be grafted to this character, or it is simply a harness to put on. My guess is that Adrian Toomes or another (Drago or Shallot) will be introduced in TASM2, so the character development will be there.

We're at 4.

With the exception of Harry, none of those are examples of fully developed characters. You could make the argument that Rhino doesn't really need much development. But Otto, Norman, and Vulture will most certainly NOT be fully developed in TASM2. Norman will have an introduction. That's it. The man in the shadows won't have much of a visible role at all. If it turns out he's Octavius, then it barely even constitutes as an introduction to the character, meaning he'll HAVE to have development in a subsequent installment. Even Vulture is just a tease in this. Even if he was in a post-credit scene, that doesn't count as development. It's still just a tease. So no, TASM2 does not include the needed character development for the Six.

If TASM3 is the Sinister Six (and I'm 99% sure it won't be), it means you have to show the formation of the team, bring back Electro and Rhino, introduce and fully develop Doc Ock, the Vulture, and the rest of the team, and form their individual motivations and relationships. Then you have to reveal who the Man in the Shadows is, develop a new story arc for Spider-man, follow up on the likely death of Gwen Stacy, and possibly introduce Mary Jane Watson and her relationship with Peter. That's A LOT of stuff to cover. There's simply not enough time to develop all of those characters and balance all of those plot threads. Unless, of course, you want the film to be underwhelming in the character department.

But the main point is that the Sinister Six makes a lot of sense for TASM3 and the character development required has already started and isn't as bad as people are making it out to be.

No. Not really. Electro, Harry, and the Lizard are fully developed. Norman has a very brief introduction. The Man in the Shadows probably doesn't even have that much. The rest of the team has either just been teased or has yet to be decided upon. So it really doesn't make any sense for TASM3 to be a Spidey vs Sinister Six film. This is probably WHY they're doing the S6 spinoff.

 

[Picard Sisko]

I really just don't see how TASM3 can be the Sinister Six. Okay, here is another proposed order of things:

1. TASM3 (wrapping up parents/Oscorp storyline from the first film)

2. Sinister Six (Spider-Man fights them using the symbiote)

3. TASM4 (Spider-Man fights Venom)

4. Venom Spin-off (he becomes the anti-hero after the events of the previous film. Perhaps he believes Spider-Man is dead just like in the comics and then moves on?)

From here on, you have other Spin-offs, more Spider-Man films, and so on. Perhaps Venom spin-off leads up to TASM5 which could do something with Carnage. IDK, just speculation.

 

[Super Jim]

^ First, the Man in the Shadows will be revealed in TASM2. We know this for sure.

It is funny how you change my wording from development to "fully" developed. Look, you don't need every member of the Six to be "fully developed" prior to the movie. In TASM2 we have Rhino, Electro and Harry all being introduced as villains, with none of them having previously been developed.

So if they bring back Rhino, who will be developed, and Harry, who will be developed, and the fedora/guy in the shadows, who will have some decent screen time in TASM2 (chamber of the future and Electro amping scenes), be one of the Six (Doc Ock), and then use one or two that can switch sides (like Connors and/or Black Cat), especially if she's been introduced at least as Felicia (we know she's in the movie), then all you need is one or two more developed (and thugs, like Scirpion don't need too much development) and you're at your Six ready to rumble.

There is plenty of time to do the Six well, if they go a certain way, and more importantly the story arc is Peter dealing with the loss of Gwen and wanting revenge and to take down the evil corporation while these guys stand in the way. It's about getting through them to Norman. Simple!

 

[Picard Sisko]

^ First, the Man in the Shadows will be revealed in TASM2. We know this for sure.

No, we don't know anything for sure. We can speculate that he will be revealed, but its also possible they are waiting for TASM3 to tell us who he is.

It is funny how you change my wording from development to "fully" developed. Look, you don't need every member of the Six to be "fully developed" prior to the movie. In TASM2 we have Rhino, Electro and Harry all being introduced as villains, with none of them having previously been developed.

I didn't change any of your wording. I was writing what I think could be, period.

So if they bring back Rhino, who will be developed, and Harry, who will be developed, and the fedora/guy in the shadows, who will have some decent screen time in TASM2 (chamber of the future and Electro amping scenes), be one of the Six (Doc Ock), and then use one or two that can switch sides (like Connors and/or Black Cat), especially if she's been introduced at least as Felicia (we know she's in the movie), then all you need is one or two more developed (and thugs, like Scirpion don't need too much development) and you're at your Six ready to rumble.

There is more to it than that. We have the characters, but we need to spend some time on how they gather, what their motivations are, etc. TASM3 is too soon, IMO. Doesn't mean it can't be done, or can't be done well, but I'd prefer if they wrap up the Norman Osborn story in the third and have the S6 afterwards.

There is plenty of time to do the Six well, if they go a certain way, and more importantly the story arc is Peter dealing with the loss of Gwen and wanting revenge and to take down the evil corporation while these guys stand in the way. It's about getting through them to Norman. Simple!

More than two movies are needed IMO to do the S6 well. And if TASM3 is Spider-Man fighting the S6, then what is the S6 spin-off going to be all about?

 

[Airnick]

I have a strong feeling we still won't know who the man in the shadows is by the end of the film.

 

[Picard Sisko]

I have a strong feeling we still won't know who the man in the shadows is by the end of the film.

We probably won't. Maybe at most we will get a look at his face, but probably no name or anything. He could "step out of the shadows" for a brief moment and we'll see Michael Masse, but otherwise IDK.

 

[Spideyfan117]

I think he was responding to my post, Picard. I used the words "fully developed" in my response to him.

^ First, the Man in the Shadows will be revealed in TASM2. We know this for sure.

We most certainly do not know this for sure. We know he's in it. That's it. That doesn't count as development. That, once again, counts as a tease. An element of mystery that is intended to keep the audience guessing.

It is funny how you change my wording from development to "fully" developed. Look, you don't need every member of the Six to be "fully developed" prior to the movie. In TASM2 we have Rhino, Electro and Harry all being introduced as villains, with none of them having previously been developed.

I didn't change your wording. The goal of development, and the implied meaning, should be FULL development. And yes, they do need to be fully developed. If they aren't then people are left confused, which isn't something most film-makers strive for. We need to know who these people are. If they come out of nowhere and their motivations aren't clear, then they haven't been developed enough to just suddenly side with other villains to take down Spider-man. The characters in TASM2 are present under different circumstances. There are relatively few of them and each is tied together under related plot-threads. Rhino might not need much development because there isn't much to him in this movie. But Harry and Electro are major players in this installment, so a lot of screen time is provided for them. They will already be fully developed by the time they show up in later installments. There is simply not enough time to do that for all of the Six in TASM3 and, at the same time, balance their screen time, Spidey's personal life, the primary story arc (Oscorp), and all of the other things I've mentioned previously. It wouldn't be a satisfying way to go about it.

So if they bring back Rhino, who will be developed, and Harry, who will be developed, and the fedora/guy in the shadows, who will have some decent screen time in TASM2 (chamber of the future and Electro amping scenes), be one of the Six (Doc Ock), and then use one or two that can switch sides (like Connors and/or Black Cat), especially if she's been introduced at least as Felicia (we know she's in the movie), then all you need is one or two more developed (and thugs, like Scirpion don't need too much development) and you're at your Six ready to rumble.

Rhino would have to be further developed in the sense that he has to get in on the whole Oscorp supergroup angle. New characters, say Doc Ock and Vulture, MAJOR players in the Spider-man canon, would have to be developed from the ground up. Then they would have to be able to have their motivations described. Their relationships with the other villains would have to be established, as well as their reasons for helping out with Oscorp. AND, that would have to be balanced with development of other potential team members (including Felicia Hardy who, even if she is in this film, isn't in it much and would need further development), as well as all the aforementioned aspects that need to be considered. This all has to be one solid narrative. That can't be done in one Spider-man film that occurs so soon in the series. Not everything has been set up in the story-arc or in the universe itself. THAT is why they need to Sinister Six film. It can handle any character development for new characters as well as carrying out further development for those who have already been established.

There is plenty of time to do the Six well, if they go a certain way, and more importantly the story arc is Peter dealing with the loss of Gwen and wanting revenge and to take down the evil corporation while these guys stand in the way. It's about getting through them to Norman. Simple!

If by "go a certain way" you mean fail to fully expound upon all the elements in the story, then yes, they could. A good story is more complicated than you're making it out to be. There's really nothing simple about it.

 

[Nicko-Ray]

TASM1 was the seed. TASM2 is the trunk. The spin-offs are the branches that come out with leaves.

Then each addition to the MAIN Spider-Man film series adds onto the trunk and makes it taller, and bigger. And since this is meant to be a long-term Spider-Man series, we will probably keep getting more Spider-Man movies after TASM4. I doubt we will see a reboot anytime soon. Just make this a James Bond style franchise and keep replacing the actor when necessary.

If this series does good, TASM and Marc's run will be looked at one of the best things to ever happen to Spider-Man cinema.

 

[Airnick]

If this series does good, TASM and Marc's run will be looked at one of the best things to ever happen to Spider-Man cinema.

Agreed.

 

[Picard Sisko]

If this series does good, TASM and Marc's run will be looked at one of the best things to ever happen to Spider-Man cinema.

It sure will. The Spider-Man Cinematic Universe will probably be the definitive Spider-Man series.