The Dark Knight Returns

[hippie_hunter]

I have to go with silentflute on this one. Batman is willing to kill. I mean Finger and Kane's version did it all the time. Loeb's Batman was going to kill Joker until Gordon stopped him, (Hush, in continuity) and he was willing to help Superman commit and cover up the murder of Lex Luthor. ( Superman/Batman, also in continuity) I haven't read the story, but didn't he also kill Ra's Al Gul in Superman/Batman?

Finger and Kane's Batman did not do it all the time and they dropped that angle right away. Loeb's Batman was going to kill the Joker after all the evil he has done, but decided not to and realised that he was wrong. He was not going to let Superman kill Luthor, he was manipulating Superman into not doing it and scaring Lex.

And the DC Universe pretty much ignores Superman/Batman after the events of Supergirl from Krypton.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Well sonny, Batman has killed.Both in the Kane stories and obviously in Miller's stories.So,apparantly, he has killed now, hasn't he?somebody oughtta slap your mama for having such a dumb kid.

They dropped the killing angle in Finger's and Kane's stories right away and are no longer in continuity (even in the New Earth that pretty much put everything in continuity). Batman did not kill in the only story that Miller did in-continuity (Year One). You need to be slapped for being so damn stupid.

"Best stories" acoording to whom?BEST is a relative term.Get it?

The Long Halloween, the Killing Joke, Dark Victory, No Man's Land, etc. are often considered to be the best and/or biggest Batman stories.

Start fresh, Revamp- it's all the same thing.Are you that dense?Or just ******ed?I rest my case.

No they are not. Starting fresh is a complete do over where nothing in the past has ever taken place. Like Batman Begins. A revamp is fixing a few things here and there.

I don't need to.Certain writers get certain charcters.Period.

Like how Frank Miller doesn't get Batman

I'm curious, do you blow your father with that mouth?

Pathetic now that you're using my parents to insult me. Are you really that desperate?

It's called a boring character moron.How many Nightwing fans do you see on an average day?

Run, that's all I got to say. Nightwing is a very popular character.

No, I'm just slaughtering you're scared cows and watching you go ape****.

No, you're just acting like a fanboy.

Really?Lamer than a pathetic fan boy who lives and dies by continuity?

Yes.

 

[hippie_hunter]

In case you haven't gotten it- I don't give a **** about continuity.If you wanna have this discussion, then break it down by writers.

You don't give a **** about continuity because it doesn't agree on your version of Batman.

No.

That's because you can't find any.

Well, Kane had him do it( an by the way that would technically be in continuity so there) And so has Miller.So I could care less what Loeb , Winick, Morrison and company have to say about it.

Kane and Finger dropped that angle very quickly in Batman's development as a character and it was completely forgotten about. And New Earth's continuity does not include the Golden Age Batman. Golden Age Batman's continuity is in Earth-2, where they too pretty much forgotten about the killing angle.

 

[Mee]

Finger and Kane's Batman did not do it all the time and they dropped that angle right away. Loeb's Batman was going to kill the Joker after all the evil he has done, but decided not to and realised that he was wrong. He was not going to let Superman kill Luthor, he was manipulating Superman into not doing it and scaring Lex.

And the DC Universe pretty much ignores Superman/Batman after the events of Supergirl from Krypton.

1. Gordon made him realize that. He didn't just stop on his own.

2. I dunno, his thoughts (or inner dialogue some call it) seemed to be pro-Luthor death, not just what he said out loud.

3. Except for the fact that Ra's is still dead.

 

[hippie_hunter]

1. Gordon made him realize that. He didn't just stop on his own.

True, but he realised that he was in the wrong.

2. I dunno, his thoughts (or inner dialogue some call it) seemed to be pro-Luthor death, not just what he said out loud.

His thoughts were focused on all the pain and suffering that Luthor has caused to both Batman and Superman, particularly Superman. He beleives that Luthor does deserve death, just like the Joker. But he doesn't beleive that their blood should be on their hands.

3. Except for the fact that Ra's is still dead.

Ra's was killed by Nyssa, not Batman.

 

[Mee]

Ah, well I heard wrong on that one.


Off topic, is that story worth reading? I've been thinking of picking it up.

 

[Cobblepot]

I enjoyed it.
Klaus Janson is a genius.

 

[hippie_hunter]

I liked it. Greg Rucka's work is awesome. Especially with his runs on Superman and Wonder Woman

His runs on those books ended way to soon in my opinion.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Not only that, he made an insurance policy that Ra's is going to stay dead for quite some time.

 

[Tojo]

Good, he needs deadnicity imo.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Good, he needs deadnicity imo.

Batman cremated the body and the Lazarus Pit needs a body in order to revive it and there is only one more Lazarus Pit left in the whole world. He's going to be dead for a while.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Is Son of the Deamon officially back in continuity? I wasn't sure, but I haven't been reading the latest Batman books in the past coupple months.

I haven't read Son of the Deamon, but just reading over what you've said, if Batman kicked a guy holding a live wire, he may have not meant to kill him. When someone's holding something and you're struck, one could just as easily drop whatever they're holding away from their body. He may have not cared that Qayin died, I really doubt he'd care if the Joker died, but that still doesn't mean he wants to kill someone. Batman marking the body and saying he hopes Quayin finds no peace only means that he doesn't give a damn that he's dead.

The fact that the wires could have fallen away from Qayin is of no importantance.Whether or not Batman ment to kill him or not is not the issue...he still killed him.Think about this sceneario.......if some one knownly fires loaded gun into the sky and while on its way down the bullet hit's and kill's a woman standing on a street corner the man who fired the gun is her killer whether or not he ment to kill anyone.Now what kind of justice he deserves is an other matter.Batman attacking him the way he did shows that he was willing to accept the fact that he might kill Qayin in the fight.......also early in that part of the story while moving on Qayin's headquater's Batman disarm's a bad guy and hand the gun to Ra's and tell's him to put it to good use....in effect enabling a known killer to kill and giving him the weapon...and this is not like giving a weapon to a helpless person for self-defence...this was Ra's Al Ghul...a master of almost every known fighting technique in the world...and Batman gives him a gun!!!!What do you think a man like Ra's is going to do with a gun?He then kills two guy.Batman is now also a killer by proxy.

 

[Agentsands77]

Off topic, is that story worth reading? I've been thinking of picking it up.

DEATH AND THE MAIDENS is a fantastic story, especially for where it takes the character of Batman in its story arc.

 

[souloffire]

Finger and Kane's Batman did not do it all the time and they dropped that angle right away.

I think that was more an editorial decision than a creative one. The editors wanted to attract a younger audience so they dropped the gun and added Robin. Batman "not killing" never has been a moral decision, it's always been an editorial one. You can't have Batman killing off some of the most popular villians in comic books, that's bad for buisness.

 

[hippie_hunter]

I think that was more an editorial decision than a creative one. The editors wanted to attract a younger audience so they dropped the gun and added Robin. Batman "not killing" never has been a moral decision, it's always been an editorial one. You can't have Batman killing off some of the most popular villians in comic books, that's bad for buisness.

Yes it was an editorial decision, but Kane and Finger admitted that they liked this version of Batman much better and Golden Age Batman using a gun was completely forgotten.

 

[hippie_hunter]

The fact that the wires could have fallen away from Qayin is of no importantance.Whether or not Batman ment to kill him or not is not the issue...he still killed him.Think about this sceneario.......if some one knownly fires loaded gun into the sky and while on its way down the bullet hit's and kill's a woman standing on a street corner the man who fired the gun is her killer whether or not he ment to kill anyone.Now what kind of justice he deserves is an other matter.Batman attacking him the way he did shows that he was willing to accept the fact that he might kill Qayin in the fight.......also early in that part of the story while moving on Qayin's headquater's Batman disarm's a bad guy and hand the gun to Ra's and tell's him to put it to good use....in effect enabling a known killer to kill and giving him the weapon...and this is not like giving a weapon to a helpless person for self-defence...this was Ra's Al Ghul...a master of almost every known fighting technique in the world...and Batman gives him a gun!!!!What do you think a man like Ra's is going to do with a gun?He then kills two guy.Batman is now also a killer by proxy.

Grant Morrison has elements of Son of the Demon in continuity. But to what extent isn't known yet. The story is bound to get redone to solve the issue of how much of Son of the Demon is back into continuity.

 

[Flexo]

Finger and Kane's Batman did not do it all the time and they dropped that angle right away.

While I'll agree they dropped it fairly quick, it was common.

 

[hippie_hunter]

While I'll agree they dropped it fairly quick, it was common.

Wow, I didn't know that happened that much

Did anyone else laugh at these ones?

 

[souloffire]

When you think about it Batman should say **** it and go on a killing spree. He doesnt have to worry about his "code" because everyone will just come back to life anyway.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Do you think this goes against my arguement:

 

[hippie_hunter]

 

[souloffire]

Do you think this goes against my arguement:

It doesn't help.

 

[Flexo]

Did anyone else laugh at these ones?

I laughed at all of them.

I wouldn't have believed the hanging one if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes.

That and Batman's pencil 'stache when he's gunning down people with the machine gun.

 

[souloffire]

I laughed at all of them.

I wouldn't have believed the hanging one if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes.

That and Batman's pencil 'stache when he's gunning down people with the machine gun.

He actually gunning down the parents of potential side-kicks.

 

[Cobblepot]

Can we end this discussion?