The Dark Knight Returns

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Silentflute. The banning is only a guesture, it doesn't mean that I'm actually forbidding him from reading Batman. It's my way of telling him that he is not a Batman fan at all, he is a Frank Miller fan. One with a hard-on for Frank Miller.

Batman only had a gun for only a few issues. But after Batman #1 (Detective Comics was not yet a full Batman book), Batman no longer killed or used a gun under editorial mandate. It's not like it's had any significant impact due to:
1. It was erased from continuity since then pretty much.

2. Bob Kane and Bill Finger expressed that they liked the non-killing Batman much better.

3. Batman only had a gun for less than a year when the character was still being developed, just like Superman who killed people in his very first appearances.

I knew it was a Joke I was just wondering who you were joking with.I know it's been erased from continuity but fact's are fact's and it's must have been an influnce to Tim Burton's idea of Batman because he has Batman killing in both of his film's.
Now just like Bob Kane and Bill Finger I prefer a non-killing Batman but I think by the time he reach's the age he was in TDKR he might have to re-think that issue.....even with all his gadjets age takes its toll on the body and refelxese's.
Now ...myself I think that year 1 and TDKR were some of the best Batman story ever writen.But the fact of the matter is that we cant be sure that DKR Batman killed that mutant their's no way of knowing.

 

[hippie_hunter]

I knew it was a Joke I was just wondering who you were joking with.I know it's been erased from continuity but fact's are fact's and it's must have been an influnce to Tim Burton's idea of Batman because he has Batman killing in both of his film's.

Tim Burton did whatever the hell Tim Burton wanted to do. He doesn't read comics and doesn't give a damn about them. Even though Batman and Batman Returns kicked ass, I don't really care for Batman killing in those films either.

Now just like Bob Kane and Bill Finger I prefer a non-killing Batman but I think by the time he reach's the age he was in TDKR he might have to re-think that issue.....even with all his gadjets age takes its toll on the body and refelxese's.

We do have a Batman now in-continuity who has approached his 40's and has been doing this for about 15 years. If he hasn't gotten rid of his convictions yet, I doubt he ever will.

Now ...myself I think that year 1 and TDKR were some of the best Batman story ever writen.But the fact of the matter is that we cant be sure that DKR Batman killed that mutant their's no way of knowing.

I wasn't debating over that. I was saying how stupid silentflute was for saying that Batman is indeed willing to kill, outside of the Dark Knight Returns.

 

[hippie_hunter]

1) He's not a cop
2) He's not The Punisher
3) Everybody in DKR is the Punisher

You know, now that I think about it, Frank Miller would kick ass writing the Punisher

 

[Infinity9999x]

I agree with Hippe Hunter. The current Batman does not kill.

Golden Age Batman? Yeah, he killed, which is why I veiw DKR as the ending future for that Batman, not our Batman. DKR doesn't fit as a good ending for our Batman, because our Batman doesn't kill, and quite frankly is much more sane then the Batman in DKR seems.

 

[hippie_hunter]

I agree with Hippe Hunter. The current Batman does not kill.

Golden Age Batman? Yeah, he killed, which is why I veiw DKR as the ending future for that Batman, not our Batman. DKR doesn't fit as a good ending for our Batman, because our Batman doesn't kill, and quite frankly is much more sane then the Batman in DKR seems.

Even Golden Age Batman didn't kill, he killed very rarely for less than a year. Not only that, it can't be the ending future for the Earth-2 Batman (also known as the Golden Age Batman). Earth-2 Batman became Commissioner of the Gotham City Police Department, married Selina Kyle, and had a daughter named Helena Wayne who became the Earth-2 Huntress. He also died before the Crisis of Infinite Earths.

 

[souloffire]

Even Golden Age Batman didn't kill, he killed very rarely for less than a year.

Doesn't half of this sentence contradict the other?

 

[hippie_hunter]

Doesn't half of this sentence contradict the other?

The very first issues of Detective Comics and the first issue of Batman had Golden Age Batman killing very rarely. But it was dropped so quickly that it ended up to where Golden Age Batman never killed and they didn't even reflect on him killing. That's what I meant.

 

[souloffire]

The very first issues of Detective Comics and the first issue of Batman had Golden Age Batman killing very rarely. But it was dropped so quickly that it ended up to where Golden Age Batman never killed and they didn't even reflect on him killing. That's what I meant.

I figured this is what you meant.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Even Golden Age Batman didn't kill, he killed very rarely for less than a year. Not only that, it can't be the ending future for the Earth-2 Batman (also known as the Golden Age Batman). Earth-2 Batman became Commissioner of the Gotham City Police Department, married Selina Kyle, and had a daughter named Helena Wayne who became the Earth-2 Huntress. He also died before the Crisis of Infinite Earths.

Yes I know, but I just kind of veiw DKR as that, a kind of alternate possibility, if the E2 Bats had grown darker instead of lighter throughout his life.

Also DKR was published only a coupple years after COIE, so I also kind of veiwed it as a symbolic ending of the old Batman, while also fully signifiying the change in tone of the mainstream Batman comics to a darker style.

 

[MaskedManJRK]

Even Golden Age Batman didn't kill, he killed very rarely for less than a year. Not only that, it can't be the ending future for the Earth-2 Batman (also known as the Golden Age Batman). Earth-2 Batman became Commissioner of the Gotham City Police Department, married Selina Kyle, and had a daughter named Helena Wayne who became the Earth-2 Huntress. He also died before the Crisis of Infinite Earths.

Thus is why there's an Elseworlds label on the cover.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Thus is why there's an Elseworlds label on the cover.

On the cover of what?Not TDKR or Crisis of Infinite Earths so what are you talking about?

 

[silentflute]

I ban you from further reading any Batman comics due to your complete lack of understanding of Batman. BATMAN DOES NOT KILL. BATMAN IS ONE OF THE ONLY SUPERHEROES THAT HAS NOT KILLED. BATMAN DOES NOT TOLERATE HIS ASSOCIATES KILLING!



Like I stated earlier: he PREFERS not to kill, but, if a child's life is on the line,then he'll do what he has to.Nuff said.

In Batman #404 during the Batman: Year One arc by Frank Miller. Bruce Wayne was shot by what are most likely corrupt cops. The car crashed because he knocked the cops out in their car, causing it to catch on fire.

Yes.Thatw as a concious decision ,that even though he was shot ,battered and ready to collapse- he still saved them.Again, work on you're comprehension.I never stated that he goes around making a habit of killing.


In Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight #120 during the No Man's Land arc Batman held a meeting with Robin, Nightwing, Azrael, Oracle, and gave Cassandra Cain the mantle of Batgirl


Nightwing and Robin went out for a "walk" and talked about the situation over Batman being accused of murder in Batman Gotham Knights #26 in the Bruce Wayne: Murderer arc. He stated:


In Batman #614 during the Hush arc, Batman almost went through in killing the Joker after he "killed" his childhood friend "Dr. Thomas Elliot." Jim Gordon, whose daughter was paraylized by the Joker, whose wife was murdered by the Joker, would not let him do it:


In Batman: The Man Who Laughs, the Joker tried to poison the water supply of millions of Gothamites. The Joker missed Batman and was going to fall over, but Batman caught him. Batman held him over the poisoned water for some time.


Batman had a conversation with Jason Todd, the Red Hood, over killing the Joker in Batman #650 in the Under the Hood arc:


In Wonder Woman #220 in the psuedo-crossover of The OMAC Project, Wonder Woman told the story of how she killed Maxwell Lord and why she did it. To save Superman. She had no choice because Black King Lord would have continued to take control of him and kill people like he almost did to Batman.


In Infinite Crisis #7, during the Battle of Metropolis, Nightwing was nearly killed by Alexander Luthor and pulled a gun on him:


In Batman #657 during the Batman and Son arc. Damien reveals the Spook's head to Robin.



In the next issue, Batman #658, Batman scolds Damien for the havok he's caused in Wayne Manor and the Batcave and Gotham:



Please.Do yourself a favor and spare me the examples of BS writers who have no clue who Batman is.If it weren't for DKR and Year One, they wouldn't even have had the opportunity to jump on the Batman bandwagon and write a monthly magazine.


There, actual in-continuity proof that Batman is against all forms of murder or kill. PERIOD. These scenes are word for word.

Newsflash sonny:CONTINUITY is BS.There's no purpose to it except to keep pathetic fanboys like yourslf happy.Realize this, and grow up.


It is why I ban you from reading anymore stories about Batman.

What you need to do is ban that barber that messed up your head.t:

 

[silentflute]

Silentflute. The banning is only a guesture, it doesn't mean that I'm actually forbidding him from reading Batman. It's my way of telling him that he is not a Batman fan at all, he is a Frank Miller fan. One with a hard-on for Frank Miller.


I like most of what Frank writes.Not all.I'm a huge fan of the O'Neil/Adams and Englehart/Rogers Batman, so that goes to show how much you know.But the bottom line is this:as great as those writers were, they never gave Batman the edge that was always an integral part of the character.Miller did.And you "Superfriends' fanboys can't handle it.

Batman only had a gun for only a few issues. But after Batman #1 (Detective Comics was not yet a full Batman book), Batman no longer killed or used a gun under editorial mandate. It's not like it's had any significant impact due to:
1. It was erased from continuity since then pretty much.

2. Bob Kane and Bill Finger expressed that they liked the non-killing Batman much better.

3. Batman only had a gun for less than a year when the character was still being developed, just like Superman who killed people in his very first appearances.

See my previous post about continuity.You continuity hounds make for the greatest targets.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Like I stated earlier: he PREFERS not to kill, but, if a child's life is on the line,then he'll do what he has to.Nuff said.

He doesn't kill at all. He doesn't prefer not to kill. He DOES NOT kill. Period.

Yes.Thatw as a concious decision ,that even though he was shot ,battered and ready to collapse- he still saved them.Again, work on you're comprehension.I never stated that he goes around making a habit of killing.

That was to show that Batman does not tolerate death at all.

Please.Do yourself a favor and spare me the examples of BS writers who have no clue who Batman is.If it weren't for DKR and Year One, they wouldn't even have had the opportunity to jump on the Batman bandwagon and write a monthly magazine.

I'm pretty damn sure that Jeph Loeb, Geoff Johns, Greg Rucka, Judd Winick, Alan Moore, Ed Brubaker, Grant Morrison, and others know more about Batman than you do, prick.

Newsflash sonny:CONTINUITY is BS.There's no purpose to it except to keep pathetic fanboys like yourslf happy.Realize this, and grow up.

More like continuity is BS to you because it completely contradicts on what you say. Batman's parents were murdered. He suffered as a result. He doesn't want to bring that suffering onto others with his own actions, even if they do deserve death. If he was willing to kill, he would have killed the Joker by now. But he hasn't.

Continuity allows stories to move foward. It is allowing our Batman, Nightwing, Robin, and other characters to age (slowly, but it is happening), continuity is there to ensure that creators just don't go off and do what the hell they want to do to the character.

Not only that you are such a Miller fanboy, you don't get the right to call me a fanboy.

What you need to do is ban that barber that messed up your head.t:

Wow, what a great comeback

 

[hippie_hunter]

I like most of what Frank writes.Not all.I'm a huge fan of the O'Neil/Adams and Englehart/Rogers Batman, so that goes to show how much you know.But the bottom line is this:as great as those writers were, they never gave Batman the edge that was always an integral part of the character.Miller did.

Yeah, he has and just like Grant Morrison's Batman, fanboys like you completely blew it out of proportion.

And you "Superfriends' fanboys can't handle it.

Did you just call me a Superfriends fanboy . I hate the Superfriends for how they treated Aquaman.

See my previous post about continuity.You continuity hounds make for the greatest targets.

Greatest targets? Continuity gives us an arguement to those who talk out of their ass like you

 

[souloffire]

Did you just call me a Superfriends fanboy . I hate the Superfriends for how they treated Aquaman.

Yeah, Aquaman was useless in the Superfriends.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Yeah, Aquaman was useless in the Superfriends.

Beyond uselessness. And Aquaman is my favorite superhero

 

[souloffire]

Wow. I never have come across someone whose favorite superhero was Aquaman.

 

[MaskedManJRK]

On the cover of what?Not TDKR or Crisis of Infinite Earths so what are you talking about?

It's pretty much confirmed to be Elseworlds--in fact, DC's pretty much labeled it to be the first Elseworlds.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Wow. I never have come across someone whose favorite superhero was Aquaman.

Really

Aquaman never started off as my favorite. I always just thought of him as a cool character but that was it. But when someone was saying how lame Aquaman was, and I just kept on defending Aquaman so much that he moved up to my favorite character the more I learned about and defended him.

 

[souloffire]

I loved it when Bruce Wayne shoved his head into a fish tank.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

It's pretty much confirmed to be Elseworlds--in fact, DC's pretty much labeled it to be the first Elseworlds.

Saying "pretty much" and stateing that it's on the cover are two different thing's.The fact that DC has in recent year's have refered to TDKR kind of being veiwed as the first elseworlds book is inconsiquencel [not sure if I speled that right]and it's a way to try to explain thing's to the over analyzing fanboy's with small concept's of story telling. :heart:

 

[Infinity9999x]

Like I stated earlier: he PREFERS not to kill, but, if a child's life is on the line,then he'll do what he has to.Nuff said.

I rarely say this, because usually people post opinions on here, but you're simply flat out wrong. Current Batman does not kill. He does not PREFER not to kill, he doesn't REALLY NOT LIKE not to kill, he's not even A TINY BIT SQUEMISH about killing. HE DOESN'T. Plain and simple.

And yes, he will do what he has to do. He'll rescue the child and overpower the bad guy while not killing anyone. Nuff said.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Saying "pretty much" and stateing that it's on the cover are two different thing's.The fact that DC has in recent year's have refered to TDKR kind of being veiwed as the first elseworlds book is inconsiquencel [not sure if I speled that right]and it's a way to try to explain thing's to the over analyzing fanboy's with small concept's of story telling. :heart:

But too many things have happened that have contradicted The Dark Knight Returns. Sarah Essen being alive alone should make the Dark Knight Returns out of continuity.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

But too many things have happened that have contradicted The Dark Knight Returns. Sarah Essen being alive alone should make the Dark Knight Returns out of continuity.

I know the Dark Knight Returns out of continuity.Any and all future story's are by nature out of continuity due to the fact that their gona keep telling other story's and that makes things difficult to keep them in continuity.
But just because the Dark Knight Returns out of continuity does not make it an elseworlds book.It was ment to be one person's vision of the posible end to the Batman story.In Frank Miller's mind's eye..this is what Batman would have become if the world continued to sprial down-ward the way it was back in the mid 80's.