The Dark Knight Returns

[Cobblepot]

This book is the greatest thing that ever happened to Batman and graphic novels!

 

[Agentsands77]

This book is the greatest thing that ever happened to Batman and graphic novels!

Uh... WATCHMEN?

 

[souloffire]

Well if you want to get technical neither Dark Knight or Watchman are graphic novels.

 

[Agentsands77]

Well if you want to get technical neither Dark Knight or Watchman are graphic novels.

Actually, yes they are. There is no real strict definition for "graphic novel" - the definition of a graphic novel is a long-form work in the comics form.

 

[souloffire]

Actually, yes they are. There is no real strict definition for "graphic novel" - the definition of a graphic novel is a long-form work in the comics form.

I'm referring to the books original format when they first came out. They were not graphic novels.

 

[Nepenthes]

Lord of the Rings is four novels. It's still A novel.

 

[silentflute]

It's probably just that he can't look past your idiocy.

But the question is: can he get past your idiocy? Better yet, will you ever get past it?Answer:Not likely.Go back to your corner now.

 

[silentflute]

That's the answer.

No, that's the cop out.You wanna get on Leaguer's level,I'll be happy to treat you the same way.



I don't bash people who like comics I don't like such as The Ultimates and The Dark Knight Returns. It's just simply that they are not my cup of tea.

That's fine.But without it, Batman wouldn't be where he is today.So, at least respect it.



But when people protect crap which needs to be burned and pass it off as something great (like DKSA and All-Star Batman and Robin), that's a completely different story.

I never said DK2 was great.I said that alot of it's subtext,Like DKR, was missed by many "fans". I'll wait till ASB&R is done before I make any judgements on it.

You simply cannot see that Miller has gone the way of Chris Claremont. They were both great writers, but now, ugh. You see Miller as some great God, whom you have a major hard-on for.

I don't see Miller as any such thing.Stop using that as you're cop out.Miller still writes great stories.Look at Sin City.Unlike Claremont, he hasn't "lost" anything, he is just going a different route than what is expected of him.

 

[souloffire]

Lord of the Rings is four novels. It's still A novel.

I agree, although you meant to say three novels. So with that reasoning regardless of how thier reprinted, comics like Dark Knight and Watchman are just comics.

 

[The Leaguer]

Silentflute types on a tear-stained keyboard.

 

[Carmine Falcone]

Just finished reading it once again.
Quite possibly my favorite Batman comic ever.

 

[Cobblepot]

Krakkkkkk

 

[silentflute]

Silentflute types on a tear-stained keyboard.

True. But remember it's the tears of my enemies.

 

[Agentsands77]

That's fine.But without it, Batman wouldn't be where he is today.So, at least respect it.

You have to respect THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS to some degree - it did modify perceptions of Batman, and was one of the most influential Batman stories ever. I respect it's place in time, but I ultimately think the work is one giant mess.

I'll wait till ASB&R is done before I make any judgements on it.

If it gets done, you mean. At this point, the state of ALL STAR BATMAN AND ROBIN is highly questionable.

Miller still writes great stories. Look at Sin City.

Never cared much for SIN CITY (as with a lot of Miller, it's just overblown testosterone without much substance or subtlety).

Even then, the quality of that strip has greatly decreased as his stories went on. Nearly everything he's produced since 2000 has been, at best, mediocre, and I'd personally go back even farther than that to find decent Miller material.

 

[The Leaguer]

True. But remember it's the tears of my enemies.

You're too harmless to have enemies.

 

[silentflute]

You're too harmless to have enemies.

Then you must feel pretty good about being whupped by someone who you consider harmless.t:

 

[silentflute]

You have to respect THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS to some degree - it did modify perceptions of Batman, and was one of the most influential Batman stories ever. I respect it's place in time, but I ultimately think the work is one giant mess.

How is it a mess.Please point that out.


If it gets done, you mean. At this point, the state of ALL STAR BATMAN AND ROBIN is highly questionable.

It'll get done.It's too much of a h seller to be canceled.


Never cared much for SIN CITY (as with a lot of Miller, it's just overblown testosterone without much substance or subtlety).

I'll give you that it's not his most subtle work.But,there's no denying the Hard Goodbye and That Yellow Bastard are great pieces of work.

Even then, the quality of that strip has greatly decreased as his stories went on. Nearly everything he's produced since 2000 has been, at best, mediocre, and I'd personally go back even farther than that to find decent Miller material.

While I agree that his work in the last 6 years has not been his best, a person who writes Elektra Lives Again, Love And War and Year One, doesn't just "lose it" and become a crap writer.

 

[Agentsands77]

How is it a mess.Please point that out.

I've done that plenty elsewhere.

And BTW, do you not know how to use the quote feature?

It'll get done.It's too much of a h seller to be canceled.

I wouldn't be so sure.

I'll give you that it's not his most subtle work.But,there's no denying the Hard Goodbye and That Yellow Bastard are great pieces of work.

Sure there is. I'll deny it. They're okay, but far from great.

While I agree that his work in the last 6 years has not been his best, a person who writes Elektra Lives Again, Love And War and Year One, doesn't just "lose it" and become a crap writer.

Sure they can. It's far from impossible.

 

[MaskedManJRK]

Uh... WATCHMEN?

I think both Watchmen and DKR are equally responcible for the darker, more mature titles we have today.

If it gets done, you mean. At this point, the state of ALL STAR BATMAN AND ROBIN is highly questionable.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that it won't ever be finished, but, unfortunately, I don't see it ending until, at the very least, next year.

Still, I like it--it's strange and wierd, and from what Miller has said before about it, I sense that this version will redeem himself at some point.

Never cared much for SIN CITY (as with a lot of Miller, it's just overblown testosterone without much substance or subtlety).

Even then, the quality of that strip has greatly decreased as his stories went on. Nearly everything he's produced since 2000 has been, at best, mediocre, and I'd personally go back even farther than that to find decent Miller material.

I wouldn't say that Sin City has no substance--it is essentially Miller's imagination brought to life, with full of things he loves to draw, which happen to be beautiful girls, vintage cars, hardasses with guns in trenchcoats, and dinosaurs--but to say it's all style is not giving Miller his due.

As for him not having great recent work--one word: 300. Have you, by chance, read that yet? Not only does it have Miller's traditional violent battles, but it is truely deep and inspirational.

 

[The Leaguer]

Then you must feel pretty good about being whupped by someone who you consider harmless.t:

When it happens, I'll let you know. Until then, I'll continue to make you look like the hopeless, pathetic 'tard you are.

 

[Nepenthes]

If you don't like DKR I'm going to punch you in the head

 

[The Leaguer]

I don't like DKR. B****.

 

[Agentsands77]

I think both Watchmen and DKR are equally responcible for the darker, more mature titles we have today.

They were both influential in their time. But as far as which work is *greater*, there's no comparison. WATCHMEN has far more merit as a work of art.

I wouldn't say that Sin City has no substance--it is essentially Miller's imagination brought to life, with full of things he loves to draw, which happen to be beautiful girls, vintage cars, hardasses with guns in trenchcoats, and dinosaurs--but to say it's all style is not giving Miller his due.

I didn't say it had *no* substance. I said it didn't have that much. And I don't mean to say there's nothing of worth in SIN CITY - I do really enjoy the short "The Customer is Always Right" (perhaps because it's one of the most restrained stories, honestly). Generally SIN CITY is just so overblown, so overloaded with testosterone, that I can't help but laugh at it.

As for him not having great recent work--one word: 300. Have you, by chance, read that yet?

I own it.

Not only does it have Miller's traditional violent battles, but it is truely deep and inspirational.

Sorry, but I don't have much love for it. What's really "deep" about 300?

And I didn't find it particularly inspirational. The actual story is, but this Millerized version is so exaggerated as to be entirely ridiculous. At times, it has a lovely visual style, but his heavy-handed, sledgehammer-esque writing style doesn't work, and his penchant for overdoing every single thing irks me.

 

[Nepenthes]

I don't like DKR. B****.

I'm the guy punching you in the head

 

[Cobblepot]

Uh... WATCHMEN?

Far more have read DKR than Watchmen.