The Dark Knight Returns

[BubbaGump]

Of course. "Influenced by DKR" can mean anything. I just don't see any DKR in the cartoon. Batman is not violent, doesn't act like a psycho, is very friendly to his friends and lurks in the shadows => 70s/early 80s Batman

I can't believe you don't see any DKR in the cartoon. Shows such as I am the Night gets close...

And the episode Legends of the Dark Knight (the New Batman Adventures) is as Dark Knight Returns as you get! It's complete with a 50 year old Batman fighting in the mud-pit with the Mutant leader--an obvious tribute to Frank Miller.

 

[The Empire Ape]

I can't believe you don't see any DKR in the cartoon. Shows such as I am the Night gets close...

Oh yes, "I am the Night", a depressed Batman is very TDKR. This episode is like (70s) stories like "There Is No Hope In Crime Alley". This has NOTHING to do with Frank Miller's batjerk.

And the episode Legends of the Dark Knight (the New Batman Adventures) is as Dark Knight Returns as you get! It's complete with a 50 year old Batman fighting in the mud-pit with the Mutant leader--an obvious tribute to Frank Miller.

Yes, this is an episode that shows you different interpretations of Batman. And it shows how the DKR-Batman differs from BTAS-Batman. It's a tribute to Frank Miller as well to Dick Sprang (One could argue that BTAS is based on the Dick Sprang-Batman which is definitely not the case).

 

[Punch]

Of course. "Influenced by DKR" can mean anything. I just don't see any DKR in the cartoon. Batman is not violent, doesn't act like a psycho, is very friendly to his friends and lurks in the shadows => 70s/early 80s Batman

That sounds like the most shallow interpretation of DKR. ANY version of Batman is violent, it's an inherent trait.

 

[The Empire Ape]

That sounds like the most shallow interpretation of DKR. ANY version of Batman is violent, it's an inherent trait.

No, Batman uses just the necessary violence. Frank Miller Batman cripples and acts like a berzerker. This is no way BTAS.

 

[BubbaGump]

Well of course there are broadcasting limitations in BTAS. Wouldn't set a good example for the kids now, would it?

 

[The Empire Ape]

Well of course there are broadcasting limitations in BTAS. Wouldn't set a good example for the kids now, would it?

Yes. And so it's not Frank Miller's Batman but that Bronze Age Guy.

 

[Punch]

Of course. "Influenced by DKR" can mean anything. I just don't see any DKR in the cartoon. Batman is not violent, doesn't act like a psycho, is very friendly to his friends and lurks in the shadows => 70s/early 80s Batman

No, Batman uses just the necessary violence. Frank Miller Batman cripples and acts like a berserker. This is no way BTAS.

well which is it?
If DKR was written like an average Batman monthly, then it would be pointless. The whole idea was that the world around him had gotten so much more violent. He never acts like a berserker, whatever that means. A besereker is someone like Wolverine, there's nothing like that in DKR.

 

[The Empire Ape]

well which is it?
If DKR was written like an average Batman monthly, then it would be pointless. The whole idea was that the world around him had gotten so much more violent.

This is not the point. My point was that the BTAS-Batman is not even close to the TDKR-Batman.

 

[BubbaGump]

This is not the point. My point was that the BTAS-Batman is not even close to the TDKR-Batman.

Of course, but the show's dark, serious tone was inspired by it. Bruce Timm even mentions it in Batman: Animated.

 

[The Empire Ape]

​

Of course, but the show's dark, serious tone was inspired by it. Bruce Timm even mentions it in Batman: Animated.

Frank Miller DIDN'T INVENT the dark and serious tone. It was there (again) since the end of the 60s.

 

[BubbaGump]

Frank Miller DIDN'T INVENT the dark and serious tone. It was there (again) since the end of the 60s.

I know that Oneil and Adams made the 70's a Gothic period. I'm not saying that Miller invented dark and serious. I'm saying BTAS has some DKR elements in it--as subtle as they are, they're there.

DKR paved the way for BTAS. The Batman TV shows usually reflect the time period their in. 60's: Adam West. 70's: still silly (New Adventures of Batman) 80's: DKR. 90's: BTAS. The shows reflect the time period. BTAS would never have happened without DKR. Is it coincidence this great show appeared after DKR?

This thread is now open to discuss DKR itself. Frankly, I'm done with this entire argument about the "darkness" of Batman. He's the Dark Knight, for God's sake.

 

[The Empire Ape]

DKR paved the way for BTAS. The Batman TV shows usually reflect the time period their in. 60's: Adam West. 70's: still silly (New Adventures of Batman) 80's: DKR. 90's: BTAS. The shows reflect the time period. BTAS would never have happened without DKR. Is it coincidence this great show appeared after DKR?

I think you have never read any batman comics from the 70s.

 

[TheCaptain22555]

I just read it a few months ago for the first time, some guy at work gave me his copy as a gift. I started reading it that night and couldn't put it down. It was amazing. It was weird to me that Wayne was older and that it was set into a future where people thought of Batman as a myth in that whole universe but that feeling quickly subsided. One of the better books that I've read.

 

[hippie_hunter]

I re-read it last month and it's a good story but highly overrated. I really liked Miller's interpretation of the Joker.

The fanboys of it are annoying though with their Batman can beat Superman, Batman really is psychotic, etc bullcrap. Added with the crappiness of DKSA and All-Star give me a rather negative feeling towards DKR.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Frank Miller DIDN'T INVENT the dark and serious tone. It was there (again) since the end of the 60s.

True, but when people thought of Batman they still thought of the campy 60's Adam West series along with the campy Silver Age comics.

It took DKR along with Tim Burton's Batman movie to return the impression that Batman was a very dark character.

 

[MaskedManJRK]

I think you have never read any batman comics from the 70s.

And from the looks of it, you never really read DKR, either, so I think you're both even.

 

[The Empire Ape]

I re-read it last month and it's a good story but highly overrated. I really liked Miller's interpretation of the Joker.

The fanboys of it are annoying though with their Batman can beat Superman, Batman really is psychotic, etc bullcrap. Added with the crappiness of DKSA and All-Star give me a rather negative feeling towards DKR.

Especially that so many people claim that Superman is a government toy and Batman could beat him is one of these points that are really annoying. Batman "beat" (he didn't really beat him) a guy who didn't want to fight. Wow.

And All-Star and DSKA leave me with the feeling that Frank Miller's old, good work were just lucky punches. Imagine what Year One would've looked like if Denny O'Neil hadn't been the editor.

 

[The Empire Ape]

And from the looks of it, you never really read DKR, either, so I think you're both even.

 

[silentflute]

Especially that so many people claim that Superman is a government toy and Batman could beat him is one of these points that are really annoying. Batman "beat" (he didn't really beat him) a guy who didn't want to fight. Wow.

He whupped him again in DK2 for an encore, and that time Clark was aggressive.

And All-Star and DSKA leave me with the feeling that Frank Miller's old, good work were just lucky punches.

Oh yeah.His revolutionary work on Daredevil must have been a fluke too.Same goes for Sin City:That Yellow Bastard.300 too.In fact, Frank's life is a series of flukes.


Imagine what Year One would've looked like if Denny O'Neil hadn't been the editor.

Would have looked pretty much the same.Contrary to what you may believe, O'Neil did not negate or ask miller to rewrite or leaveout anything for YO.

 

[Cain]

The fanboys of it are annoying though with their Batman can beat Superman

Even though I loved that cause it worked so well within the context of the story due to Supes being a complete tool, I do have to agree with this though. Batman is my favorite character in all of fiction only James Bond and Indiana Jones come close in my eyes. However to think that Batman could whoop Superman all the time is ridculously stupid. All Supes has to do is sneeze and it's lights out for Batman.

 

[itsthebatman]

Even though I loved that cause it worked so well within the context of the story due to Supes being a complete tool, I do have to agree with this though. Batman is my favorite character in all of fiction only James Bond and Indiana Jones come close in my eyes. However to think that Batman could whoop Superman all the time is ridculously stupid. All Supes has to do is sneeze and it's lights out for Batman.

There was that line in Hush, where Superman is holding back (subconsciously) when fighting Bats, because 'Deep, down, Clark is good... and I'm not'.

 

[The Empire Ape]

There was that line in Hush, where Superman is holding back (subconsciously) when fighting Bats, because 'Deep, down, Clark is good... and I'm not'.

I didn't like this quote. Bruce Wayne thinks he is a bad person? No, this is not possible.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Oh yeah.His revolutionary work on Daredevil must have been a fluke too.Same goes for Sin City:That Yellow Bastard.300 too.In fact, Frank's life is a series of flukes.

Would have looked pretty much the same.Contrary to what you may believe, O'Neil did not negate or ask miller to rewrite or leaveout anything for YO.

Is it just me or is anyone else scared that I am agreeing with silentflute.

 

[souloffire]

Imagine what Year One would've looked like if Denny O'Neil hadn't been the editor.

Yeah, the first thing I said to myself after reading Year One when it came out was "man that was some damn fine editing".

 

[Punch]

Oh yeah.His revolutionary work on Daredevil must have been a fluke too.Same goes for Sin City:That Yellow Bastard.300 too.In fact, Frank's life is a series of flukes.
.

and Ronin, Elektra: Assassin, Elektra Lives Again, Hard Boiled, Give Me Liberty... That's a lot of lucky punches!