The Dark Knight Returns

[TheMadHatter]

this is the best batman comic by far

 

[hippie_hunter]

this is the best batman comic by far

You need to read a lot more Batman stories. Like Batman: Year One, The Killing Joke, Batman: The Long Halloween, Batman: Dark Victory, Batman and the Monster Men. All of them are better than The Dark Knight Returns.

 

[BubbaGump]

You need to read a lot more Batman stories. Like Batman: Year One, The Killing Joke, Batman: The Long Halloween, Batman: Dark Victory, Batman and the Monster Men. All of them are better than The Dark Knight Returns.

Read Man Who Laughs.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Read Man Who Laughs.

That's another good one

 

[MaskedManJRK]

You need to read a lot more Batman stories. Like Batman: Year One, The Killing Joke, Batman: The Long Halloween, Batman: Dark Victory, Batman and the Monster Men. All of them are better than The Dark Knight Returns.

Ironically enough, the only other two that compares are YO (another Miller work, I wonder...) and TKJ ('cause Moore has magic enhancing his writing ability from his majestic beard).

 

[hippie_hunter]

Ironically enough, the only other two that compares are YO (another Miller work, I wonder...) and TKJ ('cause Moore has magic enhancing his writing ability from his majestic beard).

I'm not saying that Miller sucks. Overall he's a good writer, but his Batman is a very mixed bag. Batman: Year One in my opinion is his best Batman work. The Dark Knight Returns was good, but extremely overrated. Possibly the most overrated comic in history. His other Batman works suck hardcore ass though.

I loved Batman and the Monster Men because of the feel it gave that it picked up pretty much right where Year One left off. I like Batman's earlier days than his more "final" days.

And anything done by Jeph Loeb and Tim Sale is pure gold. Loeb himself is a mixed bag when he's not with Sale, but with him, some of my favorite stories have been written by him. Specifically Batman: the Long Halloween and Spider-Man: Blue. And The Long Halloween > The Dark Knight Returns.

Although, I will agree with you on Alan Moore, that beard is magical. I bet he's like the Willy Wonka of comics!

 

[souloffire]

You need to read a lot more Batman stories. Like Batman: Year One, The Killing Joke, Batman: The Long Halloween, Batman: Dark Victory, Batman and the Monster Men. All of them are better than The Dark Knight Returns.

I agree with you on Year One and KIlling Joke. I don't like TLH, it's not on the same map as Dark Knight. Can't comment on the other two cause' I have yet to read them. I'll add them to my "to do list".

 

[hippie_hunter]

Well, if you didn't like The Long Halloween, you'll definetely not like Dark Victory. It's the same creative team and serves as a sequel to The Long Halloween.

Batman and the Monster Men and The Man Who Laughs are very good reads though.

 

[rnewbz]

It is impossible for me to find that "the man who laughs" book. Has anyone been able to find the trade?

 

[Two-Face]

It is impossible for me to find that "the man who laughs" book. Has anyone been able to find the trade?

I bought mine from ebay, it was hard to find since it is out of print at the moment. I say look at ebay all the time, you may come cross it or DC might release it during when TDK open again.

 

[souloffire]

Well, if you didn't like The Long Halloween, you'll definetely not like Dark Victory. It's the same creative team and serves as a sequel to The Long Halloween.

Possibly. I still want to read it, I don't want to judge it just because I didn't like TLH.

 

[The Leaguer]

You need to read a lot more Batman stories. Like Batman: Year One, The Killing Joke, Batman: The Long Halloween, Batman: Dark Victory, Batman and the Monster Men. All of them are better than The Dark Knight Returns.

Correct.

 

[Punch]

Nope.
TLH and DV do not belong on that list.
Haven't read MM

 

[Nepenthes]

You need to read a lot more Batman stories. Like Batman: Year One, The Killing Joke, Batman: The Long Halloween, Batman: Dark Victory, Batman and the Monster Men. All of them are better than The Dark Knight Returns.

what a miserable opinion you have

 

[silentflute]

The Dark Knight Returns was good, but extremely overrated. Possibly the most overrated comic in history.

The book changed not only how Batman was looked at, but the way the entire medium was viewed.In many ways a force of nature.Not many things that accomplish that are 'overrated'.Got it?

I loved Batman and the Monster Men because of the feel it gave that it picked up pretty much right where Year One left off.

Why bother with something that apes Miller 's style?Do you think Matt Wagner can do it on the same level as Miller and Mazzuchelli?That's the equivalent of going to see a Bruce Li movie after seeing Bruce Lee in action.


And anything done by Jeph Loeb and Tim Sale is pure gold.

Yeah ok More like pure fake gold.

Loeb himself is a mixed bag when he's not with Sale, but with him, some of my favorite stories have been written by him.

Loeb is a pretentious, lazy writer.


And The Long Halloween > The Dark Knight Returns.

In your dreams maybe.

 

[silentflute]

Correct.

Incorrect.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Has anyone else felt that Miller writes Batman a little too much like Claremont wrote Wolverine on the 1984 Wolverine mini that the two worked on together? Except in DKR Miller makes Bats sound even crazier then Wolverine.

One thing I did notice was Miller's art, it's seemed to degrade as time goes on. It's a shame really, because if you look at the Wolverine mini Miller did with Claremont his art is actually very good. But then if you compare it to how he draws on Sin City or DKR it looks completley different, so different I didn't believe it when I first read that it was Frank Miller who drew the Wolverine Mini. I really wished he had stayed with his old style.

 

[The Leaguer]

Nope.
TLH and DV do not belong on that list.
Haven't read MM

They're both better than DKR could ever hope to be.

 

[Punch]

They're both better than DKR could ever hope to be.

They're barely good books, let alone masterpieces.

 

[hippie_hunter]

The book changed not only how Batman was looked at, but the way the entire medium was viewed.In many ways a force of nature.Not many things that accomplish that are 'overrated'.Got it?

Batman was dark before Frank Miller went onboard. You can thank Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams for that. The Dark Knight Returns along with Tim Burton's Batman convinced ignorant bastards that he's not the campy 60's Adam West version or constantly said "Chum."

And again, you're giving the Dark Knight Returns way too much credit. It took more than that. It also took Maus and especially the Watchmen to change how many people viewed the comic book industry. The Watchmen did way more than the Dark Knight Returns.

Why bother with something that apes Miller 's style?Do you think Matt Wagner can do it on the same level as Miller and Mazzuchelli?That's the equivalent of going to see a Bruce Li movie after seeing Bruce Lee in action.

You completely misunderstand what I said. I liked how Batman and the Monster Men was a psuedo sequel to Batman: Year One and took off very shortly afterwards. They feel as if they are in the same world, but they are two different styles of writing. Wagner isn't aping Miller's style. He's using his own. Hence why Batman is going after more of a supervillainy type of character (Hugo Strange) than more realistic villains (such as the Roman and Catwoman). Also, Batman and the Monster Men did have a few instances of humor which Year One completely lacked (like when Alfred was astonished that Bruce was actually considering adding fins to the Batmobile). Same world, completely different reads. You're so freaking delusional when it comes to your Miller fanboyism.

Yeah ok More like pure fake gold.

Again, it's just like Wagner, same world, different feel and read. You need to get this mindset that there are people who are superior to Miller when it comes to Batman. Loeb is certainly a mixed bag. The first arc of Superman/Batman was awesome, but the rest was rubbish. His Fallen Son: The Death of Captain America is a wonderful read so far, but his Wolverine arc has been a hit and miss. His run on Batman was pretty cool but his run on Supergirl is rubbish. However, one thing is certain when he works with Tim Sale, it's a sure thing that it is going to be great. Batman: The Long Halloween, Batman: Dark Victory, Spider-Man: Blue, Daredevil: Yellow, and Hulk: Gray are masterpieces. I honestly wish that Tim Sale is done working with DC soon and will go to Marvel so that I am guaranteed some great Loeb work, not hit and miss Loeb work.

Loeb is a pretentious, lazy writer.

Surprising to say, I'm not going to say that Miller is a lazy writer because he isn't. He's actually a very busy man considering that he's working on All-Star Batman and Robin, the Spirit, Holy Terror Batman!, and the Sin City movies. Sure his business has caused some delays in All-Star Batman and Robin (same with Jim Lee's business), but at least there's a reason for it and not pure laziness.

But Loeb is not a lazy person either, you're just saying that because you don't know what the hell you're talking about. He's heavily involved in the direction of the Marvel Universe. He's involved with the Heroes TV show. He's writing Onslaught Reborn, Ultimate Power, Wolverine, Ultimates 3, and Ultimate Wolverine. He's also rather busy too.

You want a lazy creator, look up Rob Liefield. That man is plagarism after plagarism. Or Joe Madureira who isn't even finished drawing with even a quarter of Ultimates 3 even though he's been on the damn book since 2005 and Ed McGuiness is rumored to have already finished Ultimates 4.

In your dreams maybe.

The Dark Knight Returns is a good story. But it isn't the second comming that many people like yourself make it as. Most overrated comic ever.

 

[Punch]

But it isn't the second comming that many people like yourself make it as. Most overrated comic ever.

That's exactly how I feel about The Long Halloween, decent enough story, immediately forgettable.

Dark Knight though, obviously hit a nerve that spread outside of the tiny comic book audience. This is because it contained mature themes, which doesn't just mean sex and violence. We can discuss Miller's commentaries on war, media, Reagan's America, urban life, moral ambiguity, while The Long Halloween, at best, is a good Batman story.

There is a reason why things are remembered and last. It's because they go deeper than just what is on the page.

 

[MaskedManJRK]

I'm not saying that Miller sucks. Overall he's a good writer, but his Batman is a very mixed bag. Batman: Year One in my opinion is his best Batman work. The Dark Knight Returns was good, but extremely overrated. Possibly the most overrated comic in history. His other Batman works suck hardcore ass though.

I loved Batman and the Monster Men because of the feel it gave that it picked up pretty much right where Year One left off. I like Batman's earlier days than his more "final" days.

And anything done by Jeph Loeb and Tim Sale is pure gold. Loeb himself is a mixed bag when he's not with Sale, but with him, some of my favorite stories have been written by him. Specifically Batman: the Long Halloween and Spider-Man: Blue. And The Long Halloween > The Dark Knight Returns.

Although, I will agree with you on Alan Moore, that beard is magical. I bet he's like the Willy Wonka of comics!

Problem I have with TLH, though, besides being kinda forgetable (I mean, if it weren't for the appearence in Two-Face, it would have been strictly throw-away), is the "killer" they present in the end. The only good murder mystery is when the killer is one that makes sense and that, when you read through it again, you can see how it went. However, that final twist not only make little to no sense whatsoever, but just feels tacked-on to make it appear to be more complex. I will say that Loeb improved on this with Dark Victory (who's killer made more sense) and Hush (who's killer was painfully obvious, but it wasn't really about the mystery).

As for Monster Men...the charm, to me, about those old Batman stories, is just how DIFFERENT that Batman is to our own. He kills, he snaps necks, he carries guns, he can lay people out with an almost magical right-hook, he hangs people off of his Batplane. Without that Batman, and replacing it with our own, the story just feels...bland. Not bad, per se, but it's no where near as wierd and fun as the originals.

 

[Mylord]

It's funny how today's kids are neglecting DKR status and impact it had on the Batman character. Miller's graphic novel was a milestone, it chanched perception of Dark Knight from one dimensional superhero to complex, adult fictional character. And it's a sad thin that it wasn't topped even to this day. And saying that medicore maxiseries like Long Halloween is better than DKR ("cause it's true to the simplistic character I grew up with, and DKR is not paying respect to mythos! OMG ")... now that's really stupid thing to say.

Just compare Batman from those two books:

In DKR - disturbed, violent, ready to kill when it is necesarry but not feeling good about it, torn, part-mad, really enjoying bullying criminals etc. It's a debatable that what is he doing is a good thing (he inspires madmen and wannabe vigiliantes)

In LH - simply, not doing anything, not showing any emotions, just sanding on rooftops with stone-like face and fighting stupid villains which are portrayed in Adam West show like style (Joker is stealing presents from the Christmas Three... how cruel )

Just face the facts, little fanboys

 

[BubbaGump]

Speaking of comics that changed the landscape of the industry...

Has anyone read Maus? It's a really great book. Better than DKR, duh.

 

[silentflute]

It's funny how today's kids are neglecting DKR status and impact it had on the Batman character. Miller's graphic novel was a milestone, it chanched perception of Dark Knight from one dimensional superhero to complex, adult fictional character. And it's a sad thin that it wasn't topped even to this day. And saying that medicore maxiseries like Long Halloween is better than DKR ("cause it's true to the simplistic character I grew up with, and DKR is not paying respect to mythos! OMG ")... now that's really stupid thing to say.

Just compare Batman from those two books:

In DKR - disturbed, violent, ready to kill when it is necesarry but not feeling good about it, torn, part-mad, really enjoying bullying criminals etc. It's a debatable that what is he doing is a good thing (he inspires madmen and wannabe vigiliantes)

In LH - simply, not doing anything, not showing any emotions, just sanding on rooftops with stone-like face and fighting stupid villains which are portrayed in Adam West show like style (Joker is stealing presents from the Christmas Three... how cruel )

Just face the facts, little fanboys

t: Perfect description.Lazy writers that followed in Miller's wake did that a lot:rather than give him any charcater,I'll just have him pose with a grim face.It'll fol folks into thinking that I'm a good Batman writer.Pathetic.