The Dark Knight Rises - letdown or not?

[shauner111]

Fudgie if you say 'Quoted for truth' one more time, im gonna rip my hair out and the person next to me.

 

[lixdexia]

fudgie if you say 'quoted for truth' one more time, im gonna rip my hair out and the person next to me.

qft?

 

[Fudgie]

Fudgie if you say 'Quoted for truth' one more time, im gonna rip my hair out and the person next to me.

Quoted for truth.

 

[Brain Damage]

Uh oh. Someone's getting an unwanted Patrick Stewart-ing.

 

[lixdexia]

Uh oh. Someone's getting an unwanted Patrick Stewart-ing.

he's going to psychic my clothes off?

 

[Brain Damage]

he's going to psychic my clothes off?

Goodness I certainly hope not.

 

[Anno_Domini]

Not to me it isn't. It's what in it that counts.

I hope you know that you're saying, really, the exact same thing as I am. All that matters is the opinion; you agree, but I don't. That's the special thing about opinions as some agree and some don't

 

[BatLobster]

There was no crime in TDKR. You raise some point about poverty. Poverty is not crime. Crime rates were not going up because poverty can cause people to turn to crime either as it so often does;

http://www.thestate.com/2012/07/25/2367164/columbia-police-homeless-commited.html#.UKe6T4aImdk

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/dec/23/homeless-committing-crimes-for-shelter

http://www.poverties.org/poverty-and-crime.html

http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPorta...&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=no&accno=ED269713

http://www.womensviewsonnews.org/2010/12/one-in-five-homeless-women-turn-to-prostitution/

http://www.thelocal.se/18230/20090315/

So if poverty was such an issue then the crime rates would be spiking again. Creating more Joe Chills like it did in Batman Begins.

Instead of becoming Joe Chills, they were heading into the sewers to work for Bane's army.

As the mayor said, no city is without crime...Gotham was without organized crime due to the Dent Act.

And man oh man, this is a pretty intense thread!

 

[The Joker]

Instead of becoming Joe Chills, they were heading into the sewers to work for Bane's army.

Yes, so Bane was to blame for that.

As the mayor said, no city is without crime...Gotham was without organized crime due to the Dent Act.

Yeah so? Every city has crime. Gotham's was so low Gordon was being retired. Blake said things were so peaceful that soon the Police force will be chasing overdue library books.

And man oh man, this is a pretty intense thread!

The natural effect of TDKR

 

[BatLobster]

Yes, so Bane was to blame for that.

Right, he offered the desperate "hope". I think it's basically a symbolic notion that crime, desperation and evil didn't just disappear with the Dent Act, it merely went underground and is brewing beneath the streets, waiting to rise.

I think they went more symbolic with TDKR and a lot of people approached it with a literal-mindset due to this being the "realistic" version of Batman and it caught people off guard. Not that the other films didn't have symbolism mind you, but TDKR really leaned on it heavily to condense and crystalize the ideas of its ginormous story.

The natural effect of TDKR

Oh do I know it!

 

[Doctor Octopus]

Organized crime went down...but at price of a growing police state and administration engaging in their own corruption to make everyone feel everything is all right as the economy was tanking.

The League of Shadows did not know about any corruption. The Harvey Dent secret was still unknown. The economy wasn't affected badly. Poor people live in cities all the time. It isn't a reflection of the tanking economy.

Instead of becoming Joe Chills, they were heading into the sewers to work for Bane's army.

As the mayor said, no city is without crime...Gotham was without organized crime due to the Dent Act.

And man oh man, this is a pretty intense thread!

Bane wasn't under the city for all of those 8 years. Crime is everywhere. But crime in Gotham was too small to be a concern.

 

[BatLobster]

Bane wasn't under the city for all of those 8 years. Crime is everywhere. But crime in Gotham was too small to be a concern.

Never said he was. But I'd say he had been there at least 6 months (the prologue takes place 6 months before the film). That's enough time to start recruiting from Gotham's most destitute, thus leading to the low crime rate that the Senator mentions and Blake alludes to.

As far as crime being too low to be a concern...crime isn't what the LOS oppose. Imbalance is.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

Never said he was. But I'd say he had been there at least 6 months (the prologue takes place 6 months before the film). That's enough time to start recruiting from Gotham's most destitute, thus leading to the low crime rate that the Senator mentions and Blake alludes to.

As far as crime being too low to be a concern...crime isn't what the LOS oppose. Imbalance is.

Bruce said Batman wasn't needed anymore that's why he stopped. That was 8 years ago. Blake's line started with him saying Gordon and Dent cleaned the streets so well they will be chasing overdue library books because of it.

It was not a recent happening. Ra's Al Ghul said the League is a check against human corruption and restore balance that way. There was very little corruption in Gotham City.

 

[BatLobster]

Bruce said Batman wasn't needed anymore that's why he stopped. That was 8 years ago. Blake's line started with him saying Gordon and Dent cleaned the streets so well they will be chasing overdue library books because of it.

That's because Batman's goal in these films was to take out organized crime, which is exactly what the Dent Act did, whenever it was passed during that 8 year chunk. I was talking about the decrease of petty crimes/street crime as a result of Bane accumulating an army underground as an answer to the "crime doesn't just disappear" argument.

It was not a recent happening. Ra's Al Ghul said the League is a check against human corruption and restore balance that way. There was very little corruption in Gotham City.

I think Ra's would highly disagree with that one.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

That's because Batman's goal in these films was to take out organized crime, which is exactly what the Dent Act did, whenever it was passed during that 8 year chunk. I was talking about the decrease of petty crimes as a result of Bane accumulating an army underground as an answer to the "crime doesn't just disappear" argument.

I think Ra's would highly disagree with that one.

Petty crime isn't something that would concern the League of Shadows. There would be mass destructions all over the world if they did.

Crime never goes away. It is just kept in check. It was in The Dark Knight Rises.

I think Ra's would agree with me since he was there to destroy Gotham City when the times were very bad. Carmine Falcone and all the other mob people ruining everything in the city with all the crime and corruption. That was when the city needed balance.

 

[BatLobster]

Petty crime isn't something that would concern the League of Shadows. There would be mass destructions all over the world if they did.

Crime never goes away. It is just kept in check. It was in The Dark Knight Rises.

I think Ra's would agree with me since he was there to destroy Gotham City when the times were very bad. Carmine Falcone and all the other mob people ruining everything in the city with all the crime and corruption. That was when the city needed balance.

It's not about the city needing balance. It's about the world needing balance. This is evident in the films, as well as consistent with Ra's' characterization in the comics.

How bad were times in Gotham when he attacked it economically prior the events of Batman Begins? I have yet to hear definitive proof that Gotham was overrun with crime before the depression.

Ra's views Gotham as something that is putting the natural order of the world off balance. Just like Rome, it's an empire that he feels needs to be brought down. This is where we get into Western civilization and Osama bin Laden parallels, etc. etc.

It's not about trying to do Gotham a favor. He wants it utterly destroyed so the world can see what happens when it reaches the pinnacle of decadence, and rebuild itself in its ashes.

Some men (Joker) just want to watch the world burn. Ra's, Talia and Bane want the world to watch Gotham burn.

 

[The Joker]

Petty crime isn't something that would concern the League of Shadows. There would be mass destructions all over the world if they did.

Crime never goes away. It is just kept in check. It was in The Dark Knight Rises.

I think Ra's would agree with me since he was there to destroy Gotham City when the times were very bad. Carmine Falcone and all the other mob people ruining everything in the city with all the crime and corruption. That was when the city needed balance.

Exactly. That's everything that Batman Begins presents. Ra's only talks about the LOS being a check against the human corruption of the world, namely crime.

Ra's never ever just talks about giving balance to the world, as it's such a vague terminology. He is very specific. He specifies he's talking about crime and corruption. He and Bruce discuss it at arms length in the training scenes. Mock Ra's said the most important function of the LOS is to stamp out breeding grounds for crime and injustice.

Gotham City in TDKR was no longer that. It wasn't breeding crime. Crime had dropped to minute levels.

 

[shauner111]

It's not about the city needing balance. It's about the world needing balance. This is evident in the films, as well as consistent with Ra's' characterization in the comics.

How bad were times in Gotham when he attacked it economically prior the events of Batman Begins? I have yet to hear definitive proof that Gotham was overrun with crime before the depression.

Ra's views Gotham as something that is putting the natural order of the world off balance. Just like Rome, it's an empire that he feels needs to be brought down. This is where we get into Western civilization and Osama bin Laden parallels, etc. etc.

It's not about trying to do Gotham a favor. He wants it utterly destroyed so the world can see what happens when it reaches the pinnacle of decadence, and rebuild itself in its ashes.

Some men (Joker) just want to watch the world burn. Ra's, Talia and Bane want the world to watch Gotham burn.

 

[Fudgie]

Exactly. That's everything that Batman Begins presents. Ra's only talks about the LOS being a check against the human corruption of the world, namely crime.

Ra's never ever just talks about giving balance to the world, as it's such a vague terminology. He is very specific. He specifies he's talking about crime and corruption. He and Bruce discuss it at arms length in the training scenes. Mock Ra's said the most important function of the LOS is to stamp out breeding grounds for crime and injustice.

Gotham City in TDKR was no longer that. It wasn't breeding crime. Crime had dropped to minute levels.

 

[Fudgie]

It's not about the city needing balance. It's about the world needing balance.

'Every time a civilization reaches the pinnacle of it's decadence, we return to restore the balance'.

A civilization not the whole world. Ra's says you're wrong.

 

[Fudgie]

Petty crime isn't something that would concern the League of Shadows. There would be mass destructions all over the world if they did.

Crime never goes away. It is just kept in check. It was in The Dark Knight Rises.

I think Ra's would agree with me since he was there to destroy Gotham City when the times were very bad. Carmine Falcone and all the other mob people ruining everything in the city with all the crime and corruption. That was when the city needed balance.

Quoted for truth.

 

[The Joker]

'Every time a civilization reaches the pinnacle of it's decadence, we return to restore the balance'.

A civilization not the whole world. Ra's says you're wrong.

Good catch.

 

[CJ]

Yes.

Massive letdown.

 

[BatLobster]

'Every time a civilization reaches the pinnacle of it's decadence, we return to restore the balance'.

A civilization not the whole world. Ra's says you're wrong.

It's amazing how just one interpretation of a single line can one of us right and one of us wrong. I don't really see how murdering millions of Gothamites and destroying the city brings balance to Gotham, because Gotham won't exist anymore. Sorry but that makes absolutely no sense. What does make some twisted sense is if he thinks the world will benefit at large from Gotham's demise.

Here's another:

"Tomorrow the world will watch in horror as its greatest city destroys itself. The movement back to harmony will be unstoppable this time."

Explain to me how he's not talking about the world moving back to harmony there. He specifically is talking about the world watching Gotham die and moving into a better era. That is how I've always interpreted the line, since 2005. This is then confirmed with lines about "bringing balance to the world" by Tate in TDKR. Not to mention it fits the al Ghul comics characterization. Ra's' philosophy is, murky, at best in BB. There is no contradiction in TDKR, only a contradiction of what you thought was true.

It's like the Rome. The LOS helping bring down the Roman Empire didn't restore balance to the Roman Empire did it? No, it restored balance to the world because the Roman Empire then ceased to exist. As you always say, his ideals make sense in a twisted way in BB. This global mindset makes way more sense.

And do you want to honestly tell me that had Ra's survived that train crash, he wouldn't have come back to finish the job even if the streets were clean?

 

[The Joker]

You're taking that quote out of context. Lets say it the way it was said in the movie;

Ra's: "The League of Shadows has been a check against human corruption for thousands of years. We sacked Rome. Loaded trade ships with plague rats. Burned London to the ground. Every time a civilization reaches the pinnacle of it's decadence, we return to restore the balance"

Bruce: "Gotham isn't beyond saving. Give me more time. There are good people here"

Ra's: "You are defending a city so corrupt we have infiltrated every level of it's infrastructure"

When Ra's speaks of the movement back to harmony, he means Gotham rebuilding itself as a balanced society. For instance he mentioned burning London to the ground. Did London cease to exist after that? No. It was rebuilt in what I assume they see as a balanced civilization.

He speaks only of crime and corruption.