• Secure your account

    A friendly reminder to our users, please make sure your account is safe. Make sure you update your password and have an active email address to recover or change your password.

The Dark Knight Rises - letdown or not?

It worked for 8 years and would have kept on working as long as it was kept a secret.

Actually I don't really think so. One of the themes of the film was that the lie that managed to keep Gotham safe only would work for a while. Gordon knew it, and he was ready to let people to know the truth. It was symbolized on the film with all the underground army.
 
OK it's getting late LOL. It's true, Bane only found out when he read the letter. My apologies on that guys.

But i still stand by the idea that LOS looked at Gotham as a lost cause. Like BlueLightning says, the League always ignored the good the Waynes did for the city. They were constantly after Gotham and this time they wanted to complete their mission. The Harvey Dent Act makes no difference. It took away organized crime, not all crime. Yet LOS still came back to finish the job.

It was definately a revenge plot, and i still agree with you guys about that part...but for me personally i enjoyed it, while some of you didn't. I never liked the idea that the League or Ras' daughter wouldn't seek revenge on Bruce and target the city (completing their mission from Begins) years later. So i always enjoyed the inclusion of the League once again, especially since it wasn't just about wiping out the city, this time "Revenge" played a large role.

Ras Al Ghul had been their master for a long time, someone (even if Talia didn't exist in this universe) was bound to continue his path. It would have been a loose end for me, if this revenge plot didn't take place.
 
OK it's getting late LOL. It's true, Bane only found out when he read the letter. My apologies on that guys.

But i still stand by the idea that LOS looked at Gotham as a lost cause. Like BlueLightning says, the League always ignored the good the Waynes did for the city. They were constantly after Gotham and this time they wanted to complete their mission. The Harvey Dent Act makes no difference. It took away organized crime, not all crime. Yet LOS still came back to finish the job.

It was definately a revenge plot, and i still agree with you guys about that part...but for me personally i enjoyed it, while some of you didn't. I never liked the idea that the League or Ras' daughter wouldn't seek revenge on Bruce and target the city (completing their mission from Begins) years later. So i always enjoyed the inclusion of the League once again, especially since it wasn't just about wiping out the city, this time "Revenge" played a large role.

Ras Al Ghul had been their master for a long time, someone (even if Talia didn't exist in this universe) was bound to continue his path. It would have been a loose end for me, if this revenge plot didn't take place.

Agreed.

I also love how they force the rich and powerful to live the same as the other residents. How often does someone say "That politician/billionaire got away with murder". Gotham may have dealt with a lot of issues legally classified as "Crime", but it was the "less than subtle" corruption by the, well, let's just call it what it is, the 1% that was going practically unopposed.
 
The majority loved Avatar as well. It don't make opinions any less valid for all those who think it sucked.

Reading your sig though I don't think ya will accept that heh.

Actually, the majority sees Avatar for what it truly is: a 3D crapfest with a bad villain, CGI that's not even THAT spectacular and horrible dialogue.

And why do movies need to "explain" everything these days? Not aimed at you, just a remark after reading some "criticisms" here.
 
I think it's pretty clear that the League of Shadows looked at Gotham as a lost cause. Their justification for destroying it was fairly weak, though. Ra's Al Ghul's was too, really, though his was slightly more accurate about the state of Gotham itself. There's not really a good, logical reason for destroying 30 million lives to eradicate crime and corruption. Both schemes amounted to "fanatical terrorist wants to destroy the city" (and in Talia's case, torture Bruce while doing so).

The whole "Peace was built on a lie" thing is nonsense. The criminals were locked up because they were criminals and Gotham wanted to keep the mobsters off the streets, not just because Harvey Dent was believed to be a hero.

The only thing that was built on a lie was that The Dent Act was named The Dent Act because Harvey Dent was believed to be a hero (which he may well have been at the time he locked up half the city's criminals). The work Harvey did to put the mobsters away to begin with wasn't "built on a lie". Why would the continued imprisonment of them for the length of their sentences be?
 
That's something I have been thinking too. The sacrifice Bruce makes at the end of TDK is to keep all of what Harvey Dent did on the film from breaking. The whole affair, all the criminals that he put on jail could be shaken if Dent's actions were revealed. But the Dent Act was not made by Dent, it was just inspired by him, and it was a very harsh method to bring on peace. The Dent Act was still something that wasn't entirely right.
 
The fact that the Dent Act called for those criminals to not get parole within those eight years is part of that 'peace was built on a lie' shtick though. The Dent Act created "peace" but at a cost that seemed like a very hard punishment, even for criminals.
 
Their hard punishment was serving their full sentence, with no chance of parole.

Punishments aren't supposed to be easy or pleasant, but as far as I know, there's nothing cruel and unusual about someone having to serve the time for the crime they committed.
 
You know, I've yet to see what is supposed to be so bad about denying parole to mob-affiliated criminals. . .
 
Parole gives those who have changed in prison. I doubt all 1,000 inmates haven't changed their ways through those eight years but they are just stuck there because of the Dent Act, which isn't fair or right, imo.

Edit: I just find it funny that I mentioned what's fair when that was seemingly what Dent was trying to achieve by going after Gordon's family, lol.
 
Last edited:
Also, I don't think that denying parole is the only thing the act does. The Mayor mentions that the people are talking about derogating the law. So we know that some Gothamites believe that is an extreme measure. Also, when taking Selina into Blackgate is mentioned that the act allows non-segregation in prison.
 
I think it's pretty clear that the League of Shadows looked at Gotham as a lost cause. Their justification for destroying it was fairly weak, though. Ra's Al Ghul's was too, really, though his was slightly more accurate about the state of Gotham itself. There's not really a good, logical reason for destroying 30 million lives to eradicate crime and corruption. Both schemes amounted to "fanatical terrorist wants to destroy the city" (and in Talia's case, torture Bruce while doing so).

The whole "Peace was built on a lie" thing is nonsense. The criminals were locked up because they were criminals and Gotham wanted to keep the mobsters off the streets, not just because Harvey Dent was believed to be a hero.

The only thing that was built on a lie was that The Dent Act was named The Dent Act because Harvey Dent was believed to be a hero (which he may well have been at the time he locked up half the city's criminals). The work Harvey did to put the mobsters away to begin with wasn't "built on a lie". Why would the continued imprisonment of them for the length of their sentences be?

Their hard punishment was serving their full sentence, with no chance of parole.

Punishments aren't supposed to be easy or pleasant, but as far as I know, there's nothing cruel and unusual about someone having to serve the time for the crime they committed.

Agreed on both posts.
 
I think it's pretty clear that the League of Shadows looked at Gotham as a lost cause. Their justification for destroying it was fairly weak, though. Ra's Al Ghul's was too, really, though his was slightly more accurate about the state of Gotham itself.

Destroying Gotham was all about sending a message.
 
Their hard punishment was serving their full sentence, with no chance of parole.

Punishments aren't supposed to be easy or pleasant, but as far as I know, there's nothing cruel and unusual about someone having to serve the time for the crime they committed.

Quoted for truth

Destroying Gotham was all about sending a message.

Yup a message that makes no sense.

A Guard message. Too long with nobody caring about them finest details.

Speak for yourself. Guard's posts are epic and always expose the lameness of the writing in Rises.
 
blah blah blah, the writing was lame blah blah blah.

You can talk about all the flaws in Rises but 95 percent of comic-book movies and general action movies can't hold the jock of TDKR or what the Nolan brothers did with it. Sorry but i cant stomach the bulk of "comic-book movies" yet i can look at the acting, the story, the twists & turns, the cinematography, the directing, the score of TDKR and be completely satisified with it.

I watched this movie again, (and i will quite a few times next month when it's officially available on blu-ray) and i can say that i LOVE this film more than words. The story is inspiring to me. My favourite of the year. A perfect conclusion to the trilogy, for what is MY personal favourite trilogy of all time. Love every aspect of this story and wouldn't change a bloody thing. The flaws just make the experience more "fun", keeping it from being a 100 percent serious film, and letting me remember that it's based on something that stems from a comic-book. Silly moments go with the territory, as long as it's kept at a minimum.

TDK Trilogy fanboy? Almost. I acknowledge some flaws you guys point out, but i accept them because i'd rather watch this movie than ANY Marvel flick out there. And almost any DC movie too.

Letdown? Not in a million years. I'm excited for the casting and stylistic element from the reboot, but i seriously doubt i'll enjoy the future stories/scripts as much as i have with this trilogy. For all the flaws TDKR has (as well as the other 2)...it's still an emotional rollercoaster. And i'll take that over some technically perfect screenplay that has far less emotion to it because it's focused on perfection with no flaws.
 
Last edited:
Bane, sitting in the sewer with his henchmen: "Hmmmm, you know what I'd really like is that those controlling Gotham had an 8 year old lie they were covering up, and for the proof of that lie, to really kick off my plans."

Henchmen arrive with an unconscious Gordon with a letter in his jacket exposing an 8 year old lie that those controlling Gotham had been covering up.

Bane: "Hello? What's this?"
 
Bane wanted for Bruce to see his city crumbling. He was gonna release Blackgate inmates anyway. Gordon's speech was just added fuel, it was just too good for not using it.
 
Imo, releasing the Blackgate prisoners after revealing the lie about Dent > releasing the Blackgate prisoners without knowing anything about Dent

I feel that with revealing the lie and destroying what the Dent Act built(Blackgate prison; keeping 1,000 inmates stuck there without parole) was essentially knocking off two birds with one stone: letting the criminals have their day while also revealing a lie that Gotham City maintained for eight years during its 'peace time'. Getting a glimpse of how Gothamites viewed the reveal would've been nice, but with the circumstance of this revolution that was going on and what have you, it was enough with what Bane did, imo.
 
A Guard message. Too long with nobody caring about them finest details.

Not for me. I always enjoy The Guard's posts. They are concise, thorough, and well supported arguments.

Bane wanted for Bruce to see his city crumbling.

Blowing half of it up and holding them hostage with a bomb would have sufficed with that.

Bane's plan never ever hindered on learning the truth about Harvey Dent, so obviously he never felt he needed anything like that for his plan to work. It was just an accidental discovery.

In hindsight what did it achieve? You never see any of the reactions from regular citizens on the revelations about Harvey Dent. All you get is moralistic Blake giving Gordon a verbal dressing down for it.

All it did was serve as an excuse to release a thousand convicted murderers, thieves, rapists etc and put guns in their hands. What a wonderful way to give Gotham hope.
 
Last edited:
They said that when the city was full of crime and corruption. "So corrupt we have infiltrated every level of it's infrastructure" as Ra's put it.

That wasn't the case in The Dark Knight Rises. Crime rates had dropped so low that Gordon was going to be retired. Even in the vision Bruce has of Ra's in the pit he says "You fought the decadance of Gotham and all you managed to achieve was based on a lie. You see now why Gotham is beyond saving and must be allowed to die"

That's the logic of Ra's Al Ghul. Wanting to kill Gotham knowing all this peace time is based on a lie. The problem is Bane never learned that until AFTER he set his plan in motion.

So why were Bane and Talia trying to kill a city that was prospering in peace time? It was just a weak revenge plot, and certainly a contradiction to Ra's and how he did things in Begins.



Therein is the problem. She wasn't finishing her father's work. Her father never set out to kill cities with low crime rates. Gotham had been saved. The LOS had no valid reason to be there.


How does Ra's quote undermine his goal in that sense? He said Gotham limped on thanks to some charitable work by Thomas Wayne. It was never healed. It was just put on a life support. Hence his choice of wording using the word limped.

Compare that to peace time in TDKR.



But one that made some kind of logical sense in Batman Begins. Not so in TDKR.


Seriously? you're trying to ascribe logic and reason to suicidal demagogues? Those people see what they want to see. Talia was easily able to infiltrate Wayne Enterprise using fraud. The police got so complacent Bane was able to set up fortress in sewers to an unprepared police force. Gordon himself was engaged in corruption to get the Dent Act passed. Gotham City wasn't perfect and when there is passion to validate oneself people will go to great lengths to create the justification to destroy their vice no matter what it is.
 
Blowing half of it up and holding them hostage with a bomb would have sufficed with that.

Maybe, but if I wanted to break someone's soul, I would use anything I would have got in my power to do that. Bringing down Bruce to the breaking point was essential.

Bane's plan never ever hindered on learning the truth about Harvey Dent, so obviously he never felt he needed anything like that for his plan to work. It was just an accidental discovery.

In hindsight what did it achieve? You never see any of the reactions from regular citizens on the revelations about Harvey Dent. All you get is moralistic Blake giving Gordon a verbal dressing down for it.

All it did was serve as an excuse to release a thousand convicted murderers, thieves, rapists etc and put guns in their hands. What a wonderful way to give Gotham hope.

We know that the only hope Gotham had was that it would survive. Bane was initiating a new order, one that relied on liberating the prisoners, bringing down the rich and powerful. It was supposed to be like that. As a parallel to the Pit, Gotham was languishing with the glimmer of hope that things would be better, just like a prisoner, like Bruce was.

What Bane achieved had less to do with the people of Gotham, and more to Bruce's reaction to it.
 
Seriously? you're trying to ascribe logic and reason to suicidal demagogues?

Absolutely. Logic can be applied to all of the villains in this trilogy except in TDKR.

Those people see what they want to see.

So did the Joker and Ra's, but you could understand from their perspective why they had the beliefs they had.

Ra's saw a city full of crime and corruption. He believed the only way to save it was to kill it. A crazy solution but one you could understand from the perspective of a man like him. It's not hard to see why someone like that feels something is so rotten it can't be saved, and execution is the only cure.

The Joker believed everyone was as bad as he was deep down, and he set out to prove it. Another crazy motive, but one you could understand. He did manage to break Harvey Dent. Hence why Batman took the fall for Dent's crimes, because "The Joker cannot win". Batman and Gordon feared Gotham would lose hope because of what happened to Dent.

Destroying a city that had low crime statistics and was prospering in a peace time makes no sense. Not even from a crazy criminal's perspective.

Check out Nostalgia Critic's review of it; [YT]A4Tqg7BFPF8[/YT]

He rips Bane's plan to pieces.

Talia was easily able to infiltrate Wayne Enterprise using fraud.

My local newspaper shop was robbed last week. Does that mean my town should be bombed?

Bruce Wayne handed her control because the LOS stole his fingerprints and cleaned him out on the stock market. Any major criminal actions in the city are direct result of the LOS themselves.

The police got so complacent Bane was able to set up fortress in sewers to an unprepared police force.

Two things:

1. It was not a fortress lol. He was camped out directly beneath Wayne Enterprises. You speak as though he turned the entire sewer system into a fortress.

2. The Police were following the orders of their superiors. Namely Gordon, who made one of the stupidest decisions I've ever seen by sending all of his Cops in the city under ground to find Bane. Where was the intelligent Gordon from TDK who called in the National Guard when the Joker situation got critical?

Gordon himself was engaged in corruption to get the Dent Act passed.

A fact Bane learned by accident, and did not learn until he had set his plan in motion.

Maybe, but if I wanted to break someone's soul, I would use anything I would have got in my power to do that. Bringing down Bruce to the breaking point was essential.

Again Bane was already content with doing that WITHOUT even knowing about Harvey Dent's cover up. It was something his plan never relied on because he didn't even know about it until he stumbled on it by accident.

We know that the only hope Gotham had was that it would survive.

Right. So releasing armed criminals served nothing except make a bad situation worse.

Bane was initiating a new order, one that relied on liberating the prisoners, bringing down the rich and powerful. It was supposed to be like that.

No, it wasn't, because releasing the prisoners was just done by excuse of learning the truth about Dent. As you well know the truth about Dent was learned by accident after the plan was set in motion. So his plan never ever rested on the inmates of Blackgate.

As a parallel to the Pit, Gotham was languishing with the glimmer of hope that things would be better, just like a prisoner, like Bruce was.

That was already done when the city was living under a bomb threat. Citizens trapped in Gotham living in fear of being blown up. What are armed inmates going to do that is worse than a nuclear bomb?

Their release served nothing except making things worse.

What Bane achieved had less to do with the people of Gotham, and more to Bruce's reaction to it.

Not according to Bane who claimed his whole revolution was to feed them hope to poison their souls.
 
Last edited:
A fact Bane learned by accident, and did not learn until he had set his plan in motion.

Yes, I didn't say it otherwise


Again Bane was already content with doing that WITHOUT even knowing about Harvey Dent's cover up. It was something his plan never relied on because he didn't even know about it until he stumbled on it by accident.

No, it didn't relied on that. But he wasn't gonna let the opportunity slip from his hands

Right. So releasing armed criminals served nothing except make a bad situation worse.

Yes! That's the thing. It was all part of Bruce watching his dear city to collapse.

No, it wasn't, because releasing the prisoners was just done by excuse of learning the truth about Dent. As you well know the truth about Dent was learned by accident after the plan was set in motion. So his plan never ever rested on the inmates of Blackgate.

That was already done when the city was living under a bomb threat. Citizens trapped in Gotham living in fear of being blown up. What are armed inmates going to do that is worse than a nuclear bomb?

Their release served nothing except making things worse.


I still think that Bane was going to release Blackgate prisoners anyway. Making the situation worse is still something that would damage Bruce. The knowledge of the truth facilitated him that.



Not according to Bane who claimed his whole revolution was to feed them hope to poison their souls.

Yes. But he was still gonna blow up Gotham. He relied on Blackgate inmates to keep the people off the streets, to make Bruce suffer. Gotham would suffer in the same way as Bruce was. The only glimmer of hope was that they were gonna survive. That a new order would arise after all of that, different from anything else. Obviously that was never gonna happen, but it played on the idea of a revolution. When nothing is left, survival was the only hope Gotham had, something that was made unreachable by Bane, and for Bruce to watch painfully.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top
monitoring_string = "afb8e5d7348ab9e99f73cba908f10802"