The Dark Knight Rises - letdown or not?

[Fudgie]

I liked his arc the most in The Dark Knight. When he was making copycat Batmen by accident, how he placed his faith in Harvey Dent, how he was hoping that he would get to be with Rachel, the way the Joker made Gotham turn against Batman, how he blamed himself for what happened to Rachel and Harvey, then taking the blame for what Harvey Dent did after Joker turned him into Two Face. I liked all of that better than him being a depressed recluse, who loses his fortune, is nearly always injured in the movie, and is not Batman for most of the movie. It wasn't as interesting to me.

Yup. Better Batman story in Knight I reckon.

I hated the change from Bane-criminal mastermind to Bane-pretending to be an antiestablishment hipster while really being just Talia's lackey in her stupid plan.
In the comics Bane found out Batman identity on his own, made up the plan of weakening Batman and defeated him in a more or less fair fight. Most importantly the reasons why he wanted defeat Batman were his own and not dictated by anone.
In the movie he knew Batman's identity from Talia, Batman was already weak and he defeated him at gunpoint (so if he lost Bat would be shot dead anyway). This whole "Occupy Gotham thingy" was just disguise for Talia's revenge.

Quoted for truth. Bane had the worst plan and it contradicted the LOS way of doing things in Begins. Attacking a peaceful city instead of a dirty crime filled one like in Begins. Lame.

Yup Bane was doing it all so Talia could avenge daddy.

 

[Anno_Domini]

"Anti-establishment hipster" gets 'quoted for truth'?

You're losing it, Fudgie.

 

[BlueLightning]

Yup. Better Batman story in Knight I reckon.

Quoted for truth. Bane had the worst plan and it contradicted the LOS way of doing things in Begins. Attacking a peaceful city instead of a dirty crime filled one like in Begins. Lame.

Yup Bane was doing it all so Talia could avenge daddy.

It didn't contradicted it. Gotham was still in the League of Shadows agenda. Labeled since Begins as a city "beyond saving" that "must be allowed to die". It was explicitly stated on the film by Talia: "’Innocent’ is a strong word to throw around Gotham, Bruce. I honor my father by finishing his work. Vengeance against the man who killed him is simply a reward for my patience..."

It didn't matter that Gotham "got better". In the eyes of LOS, it was still a doomed city. By that notion, Ra's wouldn' have made that hurtful remark about Bruce parents in Begins.

But, we underestimated certain of Gotham's citizens. Such as your parents. Gunned down by one of the very people they were trying to help. Create enough hunger and everyone becomes a criminal.

The League of Shadows vision of justice was a twisted one.

 

[Squaremaster316]

Quoted for truth.

No, it's strictly his opinion, one that is not shared by the majority who view TDKR as a very high quality film.

 

[The Joker]

It didn't contradicted it. Gotham was still in the League of Shadows agenda. Labeled since Begins as a city "beyond saving" that "must be allowed to die".

They said that when the city was full of crime and corruption. "So corrupt we have infiltrated every level of it's infrastructure" as Ra's put it.

That wasn't the case in The Dark Knight Rises. Crime rates had dropped so low that Gordon was going to be retired. Even in the vision Bruce has of Ra's in the pit he says "You fought the decadance of Gotham and all you managed to achieve was based on a lie. You see now why Gotham is beyond saving and must be allowed to die"

That's the logic of Ra's Al Ghul. Wanting to kill Gotham knowing all this peace time is based on a lie. The problem is Bane never learned that until AFTER he set his plan in motion.

So why were Bane and Talia trying to kill a city that was prospering in peace time? It was just a weak revenge plot, and certainly a contradiction to Ra's and how he did things in Begins.

It was explicitly stated on the film by Talia: "’Innocent’ is a strong word to throw around Gotham, Bruce. I honor my father by finishing his work. Vengeance against the man who killed him is simply a reward for my patience..."

Therein is the problem. She wasn't finishing her father's work. Her father never set out to kill cities with low crime rates. Gotham had been saved. The LOS had no valid reason to be there.

It didn't matter that Gotham "got better". In the eyes of LOS, it was still a doomed city. By that notion, Ra's wouldn' have made that hurtful remark about Bruce parents in Begins.

How does Ra's quote undermine his goal in that sense? He said Gotham limped on thanks to some charitable work by Thomas Wayne. It was never healed. It was just put on a life support. Hence his choice of wording using the word limped.

Compare that to peace time in TDKR.

The League of Shadows vision of justice was a twisted one.

But one that made some kind of logical sense in Batman Begins. Not so in TDKR.

 

[BlueLightning]

It still was work unfinished, something Ra's, the leader of the league had failed to do. The fact that the city got better because of the Batman, a man that was a "misguided idealist", it was a still flawed concept in the mind of Ra's. He viewed Thomas Wayne in the same way. Ra's deemed Gotham unworthy of saving. The fact that Talia mixed this up with revenge was just spicing things up.

 

[The Joker]

It still was work unfinished, something Ra's, the leader of the league had failed to do.

It's not unfinished work if the work no longer needs to be done. There is no crime filled hopeless Gotham any more.

The fact that the city got better because of the Batman, a man that was a "misguided idealist", it was a still flawed concept in the mind of Ra's. He viewed Thomas Wayne in the same way. Ra's deemed Gotham unworthy of saving. The fact that Talia mixed this up with revenge was just spicing things up.

Two things;

1. As far as everyone knew, the city got better because of Harvey Dent, not Batman. Batman was a murderer in Gotham's eyes. Harvey was the hero, and they had a law and a holiday named after him to commemorate his heroic efforts.

2. Thomas Wayne's attempts to save Gotham didn't amount to anything close to what Harvey Dent did. Or Batman for that matter. In TDK alone, Harvey put away half of the city's criminals. A feat Batman never managed.

 

[BlueLightning]

But Talia and Bane knew that it was because of Batman right? Even if they didn't, Batman's actions impeded the restore of the balance that the League of Shadows was supposed to do. Gotham was on the path to recover itself by the actions of Thomas and Martha Wayne, but the economic attack of the League of Shadows caused indirectly their deaths. Ra's was still attacking Gotham, even though there were good people trying to make the city a better place,. For Ra's, no one could save Gotham. Nor the Waynes, nor Batman nor Harvey Dent's legacy.

 

[Micromind]

Batman was always in favor of strengthening the structures that uphold Law and order, he becomes effective only when those institutions (Cops, Courts, DA, elected representatives ) fail to serve the City.

As analogy was given in Batman Begins, the people Rome gave all its powers to one man, whom they trusted to bring order in times of crisis.

LOS wanted to make an example of Gotham, they wanted to show the world how a city which allowed corruption, greed, class divide, would take itself apart, and how it will be punished for that.

 

[The Joker]

But Talia and Bane knew that it was because of Batman right?

No. How could they? They were not around Gotham 8 years ago.

Even if they didn't, Batman's actions impeded the restore of the balance that the League of Shadows was supposed to do.

So what? The city restored it's balance by itself without them. Harvey Dent's legacy had the desired effect. Gotham's hope was saved, Harvey's heroic image as well as all his prosecutions was preserved. Thus the Dent Act was born from that. They had no valid reason to destroy it just because they were foiled in doing it years ago.

That's the stupidest reason to do something. It's like killing a healthy patient you failed to cure before.

Gotham was on the path to recover itself by the actions of Thomas and Martha Wayne, but the economic attack of the League of Shadows caused indirectly their deaths.

Where was it ever stated Gotham was on it's way to recovery thanks to the Waynes?

Ra's was still attacking Gotham, even though there were good people trying to make the city a better place,.

That's because he felt the number of bad people in Gotham far outweighed the number of good people.

Bruce: "There are good people here"
Ra's: "You are defending a city so corrupt that we have infiltrated every level of it's infrastructure"

Hence why he feels it is beyond saving and destroying it is the only option. Do you really think he'd have the same attitude if the city's crime stats were so low the Mayor was going to send Gordon into early retirement?

 

[BlueLightning]

I don't really know, he was Ra's al Ghul after all. You see, the Waynes did a lot for Gotham in their time. I know you don't like to view the Viral Marketing as part of the films, but if you look into the episode 2 of Gotham's Tonight, (in which they are profiling Bruce Wayne) they are mentioned like they are saints. In Begins, Thomas Wayne works in the clinic instead of the office, being a rich man and all. He build the monorail system with Lucius, making a better way of transportation for the citizens of Gotham. They were on their way of making the city better.

But Ra's dismissed all of that. It is also stated that they have attacked Gotham multiple times, so it was a target of the league from long time ago, no matter what.

 

[The Joker]

I don't really know, he was Ra's al Ghul after all. You see, the Waynes did a lot for Gotham in their time. I know you don't like to view the Viral Marketing as part of the films, but if you look into the episode 2 of Gotham's Tonight, (in which they are profiling Bruce Wayne) they are mentioned like they are saints. In Begins, Thomas Wayne works in the clinic instead of the office, being a rich man and all. He build the monorail system with Lucius, making a better way of transportation for the citizens of Gotham. They were on their way of making the city better.

I'm not dismissing the charitable efforts of Thomas Wayne. They are just never painted as coming close to making Gotham better. Alfred said he nearly bankrupted Wayne Enterprises trying to combat poverty. His murder shocked the wealthy and the powerful into action. Hence what Ra's meant when he said "Gotham has limped on ever since".

It is also stated that they have attacked Gotham multiple times, so it was a target of the league from long time ago, no matter what.

Yes, he said they tried economics as a weapon, and that's where the Waynes death came into it. "Gunned down by one of the very people they were trying to help. Create enough hunger and everyone becomes a criminal. Their deaths galvanized the city into saving itself and Gotham has limped on ever since".

 

[BlueLightning]

Which was one of the causes of crime. In words of Joe Chill. "Sure, I was desperate, like a lot of people back then ... but that don't change what I did." So it was still a factor.

Also by the way, I really liked that line in Begins. It reminded me of the flashback of Bruce's parents death on The Dark Knight Returns, in which he thinks something along those lines about Chill.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

I did not understand that part of Bane's scheme either. I remember when I saw the picture of Bane holding Harvey Dent's photo up in the air I thought he learns about the lie of Harvey Dent and they go to Gotham City to destroy it because all of the good things in Gotham are founded on lies about Harvey and the hero they thought he was.

That would have been better.

 

[BlueLightning]

I'm thinking it was just adding fuel to the fire. He wanted to have at least the inmates of Blackgate at his side. Giving that information would assert this more, plus the fact that, you know, he frees them.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

I don't think he needed that just to free a thousand inmates. Those prisoners may have been denied parole by the Dent Act but they were still convicted criminals of terrible crimes. Giving them guns and setting them loose is not a noble deed.

 

[BlueLightning]

They were still in prison by the means of a lie though. But Bane's deed wasn't noble at all, he was talking about the prisoners when he said that Harvey Dent stopped them from tearing the city apart and rebuild it by their own means. Even though we know that Bane did not intend this for the city, they were going to destroy Gotham anyway.

But Bruce was watching, that was the important part. It was all part of the plan of breaking Bruce soul.

 

[shauner111]

Therein is the problem. She wasn't finishing her father's work. Her father never set out to kill cities with low crime rates. Gotham had been saved. The LOS had no valid reason to be there.

Gotham was not saved. And Bane and Talia knew this. It was only a matter of time before the truth came out, as it always does. Gordon was very close to spilling the beans. Low-crime rates weren't going to last because it was a phony.

It was partly revenge AND finishing the mission that Ras almost completed 9 years prior. Bane getting his hands on the bomb, etc...I don't think that had anything to do with Batman. That was Talia and Bane's way of honoring their mentor and it was carefully planned. Waiting for Batman to get older while he was absent, was smart on their part. But Batman came back so they had to deal with it. Talia dealt with Bruce, Bane dealt with the Batman.

Peace in Gotham was all built on a lie, it's false peace. The League of Shadows never completed their mission and they weren't going to wait another 30 years for the truth to possibly come out. This is the way i see it, it's as if they acted when Bane was still able to physically lead and terrify and control an entire city. And of course we know Talia wanted to personally manipulate Bruce while he was still alive. It was a combination of a revenge plot against Bruce Wayne for killing her father and the man that rescued Bane (even if he excommunicated him later) + a plot to decimate a city that was destined to fail (in the Leagues eyes anyway).

I had no problem with the portion of the story that had to do with "revenge". It's an action movie, it's a Batman movie, it's a comic-book movie..as long as it was executed in a superb fashion, which for me personally it did, then i wasn't complaining. The only thing that would have been better for me was if i stayed away from ALL rumors and set-leaks during production. Then i would have enjoyed Talias reveal more. But I even heard about the knife to Batmans side, and i still enjoyed it when it happened.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

You are talking as though Bane and Talia knew the truth about Harvey Dent before. They did not. Bane and Talia were unaware that Gotham was not saved until Bane read Jim Gordon's confessional letter when they captured him in the sewers.

So really the only reason they were there was for revenge. I don't think that is the way the League of Shadows operates. I didn't like it. It's not consistent.

 

[BlueLightning]

I already explained my point of view about that matter in a previous post. I still think is consistent.

 

[Fudgie]

Gotham was not saved. And Bane and Talia knew this.

Nope they didn't. Bane knew diddly squat until he saw that letter from Gordon.

It was only a matter of time before the truth came out, as it always does. Gordon was very close to spilling the beans.

But the LOS didn't know anything about it. They ain't psychic.

Low-crime rates weren't going to last because it was a phony.

It worked for 8 years and would have kept on working as long as it was kept a secret.

Peace in Gotham was all built on a lie, it's false peace. The League of Shadows never completed their mission and they weren't going to wait another 30 years for the truth to possibly come out.

They didn't know about the truth mon ami. Didn't ya even watch the flick? They learned the truth when they saw Gordon's letter about Dent. Before that they didn't know a damn thing about it.

Bane was only doing this for Talia cos she wanted to avenge her pappy.

 

[Fudgie]

No, it's strictly his opinion, one that is not shared by the majority who view TDKR as a very high quality film.

The majority loved Avatar as well. It don't make opinions any less valid for all those who think it sucked.

Reading your sig though I don't think ya will accept that heh.

 

[Ultimatehero]

Nope, TDKR BB TDK. It surpassed my expectations.

 

[Fudgie]

You are talking as though Bane and Talia knew the truth about Harvey Dent before. They did not. Bane and Talia were unaware that Gotham was not saved until Bane read Jim Gordon's confessional letter when they captured him in the sewers.

So really the only reason they were there was for revenge. I don't think that is the way the League of Shadows operates. I didn't like it. It's not consistent.

Quoted for truth.

 

[Anno_Domini]

Too many 'quote for truth' posts, not enough real truth.