The Dark Knight Rises - letdown or not?

[JeetKuneDo]

Batman became the symbol that he was meant for. To inspire good and make the people of Gotham understand their city doesn't belong to the corrupt. We saw that when the police took back Gotham. As explained by some posters before, Blake taking up the mantle doesn't necessarily mean he goes crime fighting right ahead. He's just there in case things go out of hand. Alfred said this outright in TDK, that Batman is the outcast who makes the choices no one else can make.

I understand that.

But that makes Bruce Wayne less special and is the reason I don't like the idea. Batman is a "symbol" instead of "Bruce Wayne...the only man on earth who can be Batman".

 

[Ryder]

Let down, liked the first two more.

 

[TheGuy]

I understand that.

But that makes Bruce Wayne less special and is the reason I don't like the idea. Batman is a "symbol" instead of "Bruce Wayne...the only man on earth who can be Batman".

No. Without Bruce Wayne there wouldn't be any batman. There would be more batman after him, but who would they be without him? Does it matter to the people of Gotham who the man in the cowl is? Of course not. It only matters to us, the audience. But don't worry we only got to see Bruce in the cowl, not Blake.

LOL yeaaah that better be a joke.

Yeah That was a joke.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

No. Without Bruce Wayne there wouldn't be any batman. There would be more batman after him, but who would they be without him? Does it matter to the people of Gotham who the man in the cowl is? Of course not. It only matters to us, the audience. But don't worry we only got to see Bruce in the cowl, not Blake.

That's still someone else being Batman. That's still making Wayne less unique and special. He can train other people to be Batman now? Maybe he should open up a corner shop, "Batman School" and turn them out by the dozen.

 

[HighFivingMF]

That's still someone else being Batman. That's still making Wayne less unique and special. He can train other people to be Batman now? Maybe he should open up a corner shop, "Batman School" and turn them out by the dozen.

He did do that. And it was/still is awesome.

 

[The Joker]

He did do that.

Do you mean Batman Inc? It's not the same thing really since he's still the main definitive Batman. He has not hung up his cowl.

 

[Visualiza]

So you found BB and TDK entertaining, but not TDKR and you found all three films bad Batman films?

Not quite. BB/TDK - Well made films that aren't my cup of tea. This is indeed a rarity; I'd put Cloud Atlas, O Brother, Where Art Thou and Goodfellas into this category as well.

In the case of TDKR, I would call it a bad film because I believe that, by every objective measure, it was inferior to the previous films. Subjectively, I didn't like the majority of the plot/character decisions and found the whole romp pretty unentertaining.

Bad Batman films? Nah. I'll just say that they're not what I'd consider ideal Batman films.

I feel the same way except for him being one of my favorite filmmakers. I just find his movies to be too pretentious.

I can see where you're coming from here. I like Nolan's films for a few reasons. For one, I think he employs some pretty slick cinematography. Photography is one of my favorite hobbies, so I've got a deep appreciation for unique imagery and the effects that tend to go with it. With that being said, slick imagery alone can't carry a film for me(my main gripe with 300), but it certainly helps if all of the right pieces have been put together. He's also masterful when it comes to suspense and build-up. Absolutely masterful. I doubt that many others would agree, but the manner in which Nolan handles tension and suspense is somewhat evocative of Alfred Hitchcock(IMHO, of course).

He does however employ good casts. I don't like Christian Bale at all and his Bruce and Batman are only a notch above Clooney's for me.

Bale was a pretty wooden Bruce Wayne IMO. Really though, I think Val Kilmer was by far the worst. Clooney gets a lot of flack because of how ridiculous his movie was, but the guy has charisma in spades. Bale, by contrast, can't sell the carefree, aloof playboy persona for me. Every word that comes out of his mouth sounds sarcastic and/or disinterested, and it just didn't make for a convincing performance. As bad as I thought Bale was, Kilmer must have been sleepwalking through the role...I'm convinced.

 

[TheGuy]

That's still someone else being Batman. That's still making Wayne less unique and special. He can train other people to be Batman now? Maybe he should open up a corner shop, "Batman School" and turn them out by the dozen.

But you're ignoring the fact the Nolan's Batman isn't stuck in limbo with the death of his parents. His version of Bruce Wayne is a guy who longs for a life outside of Batman. Batman was there to inspire good. As a symbol. Nothing more. Who the man is under the cowl doesn't matter. What Bruce set out to do in BB was accomplished.

 

[shauner111]

Visualiza....If Bale was wooden to you, then i think ur setting ur expectations too high because you might be waiting forever if u think somebody is gonna portray Bruce Wayne in a completely different manner. I absolutely dig the animated series for instance, and that Bruce Wayne (no matter the persona) was extremely wooden. But still solid and yes im aware it's voice acting lol. But you cant tell me that Bale didnt do a better job at the playboy persona than Keaton. Ill say it again, u may be waiting a long ass time for that kind of Bruce Wayne ur looking for. I for one dont really know what that may be.

 

[TheGuy]

Bale was a pretty wooden Bruce Wayne IMO. Really though, I think Val Kilmer was by far the worst. Clooney gets a lot of flack because of how ridiculous his movie was, but the guy has charisma in spades. Bale, by contrast, can't sell the carefree, aloof playboy persona for me. Every word that comes out of his mouth sounds sarcastic and/or disinterested, and it just didn't make for a convincing performance. As bad as I thought Bale was, Kilmer must have been sleepwalking through the role...I'm convinced.

Bale's weakness was indeed the playboy persona. It was at its worst in TDK. I still laugh when he gave a check to the waiter who said the pool isn't for swimming.

 

[The Joker]

Visualiza....If Bale was wooden to you, then i think ur setting ur expectations too high because you might be waiting forever if u think somebody is gonna portray Bruce Wayne in a completely different manner. I absolutely dig the animated series for instance, and that Bruce Wayne (no matter the persona) was extremely wooden. But still solid and yes im aware it's voice acting lol. But you cant tell me that Bale didnt do a better job at the playboy persona than Keaton. Ill say it again, u may be waiting a long ass time for that kind of Bruce Wayne ur looking for. I for one dont really know what that may be.

Keaton never did the playboy persona. His Bruce Wayne was such a recluse that even the Gotham Press don't recognize him when they meet him. Remember Knox and Vale had no idea they were talking to Bruce Wayne in his own mansion until he introduced himself.

I thought the arrogant playboy persona Bale put on was spot on. His Bruce Wayne character in general is his strongest aspect of the character in all three movies.

 

[Red Mask]

Bale was a pretty wooden Bruce Wayne IMO. Really though, I think Val Kilmer was by far the worst. Clooney gets a lot of flack because of how ridiculous his movie was, but the guy has charisma in spades. Bale, by contrast, can't sell the carefree, aloof playboy persona for me. Every word that comes out of his mouth sounds sarcastic and/or disinterested, and it just didn't make for a convincing performance. As bad as I thought Bale was, Kilmer must have been sleepwalking through the role...I'm convinced.

I don't think Nolan was shooting for a convincing playboy act from Bale. He focused on the persona that involves the darkness of Batman. We know it's an act and there was no need to completely entertain the facade with everything he was undergoing in the story.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

He did do that. And it was/still is awesome.

I hope you are kidding. They actually have a school to turn out "Batman's" by the dozen?

Wow...talk about diminishing the character of Bruce Wayne!

But you're ignoring the fact the Nolan's Batman isn't stuck in limbo with the death of his parents. His version of Bruce Wayne is a guy who longs for a life outside of Batman. Batman was there to inspire good. As a symbol. Nothing more. Who the man is under the cowl doesn't matter. What Bruce set out to do in BB was accomplished.

I'm not ignoring it....I just hate the idea that any other person can be Batman. I know Nolan has reasons...but those reasons don't change the fact that other people can just throw on the costume and be "Batman".

I feel exactly the same about War Machine and the various Green Lanterns. You just made Tony Stark and Hal Jordan less special. Jordan was supposedly picked because he was the most worthy human being on earth....I guess not.....just go to the Green Lantern store and pick up another one. At least I did get the sense Stark was a better Iron Man than Rhodey.

Imagine if they did that with James Bond or Dirty Harry or John McClane? Just plug in another guy and go on without skipping a beat? Really?

It's a terrible idea and diminishes the Bruce Wayne character. Apparently, he's not special at all. All you need is the costume.

 

[BlueLightning]

You must hate Terry McGinnis then, and Dick Grayson for that matter.

 

[Baramos]

Well up until Skyfall people seemed to think that James Bond was just a code name (since the movies themselves are somewhat contradictory on the point of it being the same guy, plus the different actors), but I do agree that Dirty Harry at least is an iconic character that I couldn't see being played by anyone else other than Clint Eastwood. But the character itself is not necessarily so original that you couldn't have had the character Mike Hammer or Frank Bullitt in the plot of Dirty Harry (or whatever).

I think people are fairly accepting of "the passing of the mantle" for heroes/superheroes. Nobody really complained about the Mask of Zorro or whatever. I think they mostly take umbrage at the reason provided by The Dark Knight Rises, which was not very good--Batman is so obsessive a personality in the comics that a director actually getting to the point where he willingly puts down the mantle of Batman is something totally new for the character. So I could see people criticizing that.

You must hate Terry McGinnis then, and Dick Grayson for that matter.

Batman Beyond was a different story and isn't really a good comparison to TDKRises because Bruce unwillingly gave up being Batman do to simply being physically unable to do it anymore. He's still obsessive about being Batman, he's just forced to do it vicariously.

With Batman RIP again it was unwillingly given up due to circumstances beyond his control.

With TDKRises we see him actually overcome his past and reach a resolution that the comics and other movies/media have never actually done before, which is probably part of people's problem with this movie. On the other hand, I think it is a positive, because we've finally seen a fully complete Batman narrative for once where the character actually reaches his goal.

Myself, I didn't actually have a problem with this movie, though. I liked it a lot, though I can see myself watching it less than I did The Dark Knight which I used to watch at least once a month...

 

[Indy Flash]

It was a great movie. Bale and co did a great job.

 

[shauner111]

It's a terrible idea and diminishes the Bruce Wayne character. Apparently, he's not special at all. All you need is the costume.

Then you're missing the point completely. It's never stated that all u need is a costume. You still need the will and the training. Anybody CAN step up to the plate and be Batman...the question is "who's actually going to do it?". Anybody can but not everybody will.

Well up until Skyfall people seemed to think that James Bond was just a code name (since the movies themselves are somewhat contradictory on the point of it being the same guy, plus the different actors)

Sorry but that's the dumbest thing ive ever heard. I never met anyone who actually thought that way. If people are out there who believe in that and don't see that it's just the man James Bond being re-cast through different journeys that don't necessarily connect....then im completely baffled.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

Then you're missing the point completely. It's never stated that all u need is a costume. You still need the will and the training. Anybody CAN step up to the plate and be Batman...the question is "who's actually going to do it?". Anybody can but not everybody will.

Oh I get that you have to dedicate yourself and train.

Again....Bruce Wayne is not special. There are untold thousands of people who dedicate themselves to train for various reasons. Just go to the Olympics and recruit about 100 guys. So Batman is just a guy with will and dedication.

That means there is nothing Bruce Wayne brings to the table which is unique.

 

[shauner111]

He originated it. If it wasn't for Bruce and what happened to him and the decisions he made, there wouldn't be a Batman. He paved the way. He's absolutely unique.

Also the "anybody could be Batman" line was not meant to be taken literally i dont think. Bruce means anybody could step up and do what the Batman does, in other words he's not exactly talking about wearing a suit and cowl. You can represent the symbol and what it stands for without putting on a costume. We can all stand up for what we believe in.

 

[TheGuy]

^Yeah. I forgot to mention that it isn't taken literally.

 

[Anno_Domini]

Not quite. BB/TDK - Well made films that aren't my cup of tea. This is indeed a rarity; I'd put Cloud Atlas, O Brother, Where Art Thou and Goodfellas into this category as well.

In the case of TDKR, I would call it a bad film because I believe that, by every objective measure, it was inferior to the previous films. Subjectively, I didn't like the majority of the plot/character decisions and found the whole romp pretty unentertaining.

Bad Batman films? Nah. I'll just say that they're not what I'd consider ideal Batman films.

Hrm, interesting. When someone isn't a fan of Nolan's Batman, I rarely hear this sort of reasoning of someone believing them to still be great films but not said person's ideal Batman. Usually when it's not their ideal or preference of Batman they want to see on film, they usually hate the films altogether. Surprising that you even like BB and TDK on at least some scale of enjoyment.

 

[Ultimatehero]

Best of the franchise. And that's not because I'm in it. It may be because I'm an 'orphan' though...

 

[Anno_Domini]

You're in it!?!?!?!

 

[Visualiza]

Visualiza....If Bale was wooden to you, then i think ur setting ur expectations too high because you might be waiting forever if u think somebody is gonna portray Bruce Wayne in a completely different manner. I absolutely dig the animated series for instance, and that Bruce Wayne (no matter the persona) was extremely wooden. But still solid and yes im aware it's voice acting lol. But you cant tell me that Bale didnt do a better job at the playboy persona than Keaton. Ill say it again, u may be waiting a long ass time for that kind of Bruce Wayne ur looking for. I for one dont really know what that may be.

For one, the bolded has no bearing whatsoever on my opinion of Bale's performance as Wayne, so I'm not sure where you're going with that. The only expectations I have are that a performance be convincing and believable; pre-conceived notions are left at the door. To put it as simply as I can - Bale is a capable actor, but his performance as Bruce Wayne was unconvincing. The end. I detailed why in my post above, but you seem to be looking for some sort of outside reasoning where there is none.

Hrm, interesting. When someone isn't a fan of Nolan's Batman, I rarely hear this sort of reasoning of someone believing them to still be great films but not said person's ideal Batman. Usually when it's not their ideal or preference of Batman they want to see on film, they usually hate the films altogether. Surprising that you even like BB and TDK on at least some scale of enjoyment.

An unconventional notion to be sure, but not completely foreign. Call it the opposite of a guilty pleasure. We've all inexplicably taken a liking to songs, movies, and art that we ordinarily wouldn't; I'd say this is the other side to that coin.

 

[Jick]

For the first time, I enjoyed watching Bruce Wayne on screen and I credit that to Bale. I think he was the best we had so far and I'm counting the TAS's Bruce, too.