BvS The Death of Superman!

[smallville fan]

It should be revealed in the end that Superman was the mastermind behind the entire thing. He seems the type, doesn't he?

Maybe in a movie inspired by Injustice: Gods Among Us.

 

[MrsKent26]

I have some reservations, but am open to it. There's a few pros and cons that come with it.

On the con side, if done wrong, it could seem like a cheap, but expedient way to endear superman to the audience. Instead of developing his character, they just kill him and hope everybody cries. He needs to be seen living and inspiring the masses if they want anyone to care about his death. A schmaltzy death scene won't fill the void left by overly thin characterization. It reminds me of a quote from The Last Samurai:

"Tell me how he died..."
"I will tell you how he lived."

There's also the issue that he won't stay dead. They're not going to have JL without superman and anyone who knows this might find this death scene anti-climactic.

On the pro side, it's entirely possible for them develop his character and give us a moving death scene. It would allow them to explore the world's reaction to losing Superman and underscores his impact. It also displays a need for the JL as clearly some enormous threats exist.

I thought I would hate the scene of Supes killing Zod, so I'm trying to be open to this depending on how it's done.

 

[Herolee10]

Well, all I know is that if Superman isn't a founding member of the DCU version of the JL, let alone ends up being a "foe" that the group has to tackle if he's brought back as someone else's servant, then I'm done with the DCU permanently since he'll have been downgraded to being no less different than the version from Justice League: War.

What's the point of starting the DCU with Superman if he's just going to be mishandled in favor for other heroes to shine once they debut onto the scene?

 

[Rorschach2012]

Well, all I know is that if Superman isn't a founding member of the DCU version of the JL, let alone ends up being a "foe" that the group has to tackle if he's brought back as someone else's servant, then I'm done with the DCU permanently since he'll have been downgraded to being no less different than the version from Justice League: War.

What's the point of starting the DCU with Superman if he's just going to be mishandled in favor for other heroes to shine once they debut onto the scene?

If Superman's death causes all the heroes to rally together to save the universe, then i can accept Superman not technically forming the Justice League

 

[AnneFan]

There is some striking (pardon the pun) imagery with that book.

Spoiler tagged for size:

Spoiler

 

[teagone]

Cross posting my thoughts on the matter (slightly edited) from the cliffhanger thread:

Clark dying could have a significant resonance, but that really... really depends on how strong/effective the script is. A fusion of elements from TDKR with TDoS could make for an interesting narrative in Dawn of Justice (imo), considering what Man of Steel had laid the groundwork for.

This is pure speculation, but if Terrio writes that the public opinion of Superman is wholly or even just partially negative in Dawn of Justice, whether that's due to the level of destruction he was a part of or if Lex Luthor is slandering the hell out of him, it presents a possible situation where the only way Clark could convince the public that he's not an enemy of the human race is through self-sacrifice. While it might be a bit heavy-handed with the Christ metaphor again, it does make a bit of sense, i.e., where the public scolds him (IF written that way) but in the end, it turns out he's the only one who can save them. Maybe it's Bruce who realizes this after he confirms what Clark's true intentions are, and as a result, motivates Clark to overcome what would seem like truly impossible odds.

That said, I see Clark's potential death in Dawn of Justice as positive for two reasons. One: it would be a poignant mark in the narrative that's an excellent catalyst for justifying why the Justice League is formed so quickly, and two: it, in effect, would make the Justice League follow up film a bit more interesting, seeing as how Clark wouldn't be present (until the third act at least) to quell any conflict with relative ease since, well... since he's Superman; it basically gives the writers a bit more flexibility with the narrative conflict.

With rumors that Doomsday is potentially in Dawn of Justice, The Rock saying he's playing a character who has never graced the screen before who is also able to throw down with Superman, and that I've read a rumor elsewhere that it's actually Wonder Woman who spearheads the Justice League in the films, and as such, is its formal leader... it's possible Clark does die at the end of Dawn of Justice, and will have a triumphant return in the latter half of the third act in Justice League.

Again though, this is all purely speculation

I'm ok either way honestly; whatever direction Snyder/Terrio go, I'm onboard and invested with whatever vision they have for the DC Cinematic Universe. Those against the matter haven't really convinced me why it would be a bad idea to include the death of Superman as a major plot point other than it being something they'd rather not see or are averse to that particular comic arc.

 

[Herolee10]

I'm not saying that I want superman to "form" the Justice League. I'm saying that I want Superman to be ONE of its founding members.

Plus, it doesn't make any real sense for his death to be the reason why the other heroes would get together.

That's like implying that Superman can save the world on his own without their help and it's only because he's no longer there (for the time being) that they get together in order to pick up the slack.

It robs Superman the chance to really be involved in the process of when the group finally gets together and makes him more like the "Hulk" of the group.

I can't really understand on how any superman fan would like that idea.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Well lets be honest, even if the heroes all appear together on screen, even if they WORK together on screen, that doesn't automatically make them a team. For myself, The Avengers didn't show up on screen until the circle dolly shot group shot. That's when the Avengers as a team made their appearance. It was that moment when comic book and film became one. "For there came a day like no other... A day when the Earth's Mightiest of Heroes found themselves united against a common foe... On that day... THE AVENGERS was born..." Same with a JL film to me. They can work together, be allies, ect.... That doesn't make them a team per se. As long as Superman is there when they actually become a team, as it happens, I'll call that a win.

 

[teagone]

Plus, it doesn't make any real sense for his death to be the reason why the other heroes would get together.

That's like implying that Superman can save the world on his own without their help and it's only because he's no longer there (for the time being) that they get together in order to pick up the slack.

It wouldn't be implying, it would straight up be saying it outright. If Doomsday is actually written into the story, he'd rightly exist as an elemental force/external struggle that is beyond what any other character can control, save for one individual. That being Clark. If the conflict in Dawn of Justice is written in that way, it presents the idea that despite how much he's derided by the human race (heroes and demigods included)... Clark would have to show immense resolve and perseverance to give his life to save those who would deem him an enemy or threat.

It robs Superman the chance to really be involved in the process of when the group finally gets together and makes him more like the "Hulk" of the group.

I can't really understand on how any superman fan would like that idea.

If we're comparing, I personally can't see Hulk pulling off the same kind of emotional impact of Superman sacrificing himself, despite knowing full well he's the only who would stop a significant threat, and actually "dying" in the process.

 

[ЯɘvlveR]

right. alot of people are saying no. and then, when that's what we get from snyder, they'll turnaround and say it was genius.

 

[Herolee10]

When I said the "Hulk" of the group, I was referring to how Superman would potentially just serve as the group's muscle, and not really be the motivational or inspirational leader like he was in the comics for the group.

And at least the MCU Hulk was a founding member but if superman is only resurrected when the group is already formed, well that's one big giant FU and middle finger to the character.

 

[ЯɘvlveR]

it wouldn't be a giant fu if it was established in his honor. regardless, we don't know how the group will assemble. if he dies in the movie that doesn't necessarily mean they'll establish the jl without him.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

right. alot of people are saying no. and then, when that's what we get from snyder, they'll turnaround and say it was genius.

Or some are saying it's not what they want, or they find it sub optimal, but are actually WAITING to see what's done and aren't going to waste time pulling they're hair out over things that are merely speculation at this point.

 

[ЯɘvlveR]

Or some are saying it's not what they want, or they find it sub optimal, but are actually WAITING to see what's done and aren't going to waste time pulling they're hair out over things that are merely speculation at this point.

and who are those some? those 3 that voted not sure?

I'm talking about those voting no without having seen a scene of the movie.

 

[Herolee10]

As if potentially getting beaten or out-shined by Batman in this film wasn't enough to worry about but now being killed off at the end of this film as well?

Great, i guess it really looks like I'll only have Avengers 2, CA 3, and X-Men: Apocalypse to look forward to within the next 2-3 years from now.

 

[ЯɘvlveR]

lol.

 

[teagone]

When I said the "Hulk" of the group, I was referring to how Superman would potentially just serve as the group's muscle, and not really be the motivational or inspirational leader like he was in the comics for the group.

And at least the MCU Hulk was a founding member but if superman is only resurrected when the group is already formed, well that's one big giant FU and middle finger to the character.

He wouldn't just be the muscle though. What better motivation/inspiration is there for heroes to band together when they see a man with limitless power under immense scrutiny temporarily save an entire planet but ends up getting killed in the process? Sacrificing one life to save billions, especially if it's ones own life, is an incredible display of strength and courage. Clarks death would be meaningful enough, I would think, to have heroes and demigods unite when seeing the all-powerful Superman, who they might have seen as a threat, exert himself in an effort to protect mankind despite being ridiculed and judged.

More speculation, but whose to say the initial Justice League union is a strong one when its formed in the event of Clark's death? Maybe it turns out to be a group of people with great power and abilities, but the connection and worlds views they share are tenuous at best. Maybe it'll be Superman, when he returns, that tells everyone in the Justice League to get their **** together.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

As if potentially getting beaten or out-shined by Batman in this film wasn't enough to worry about but now being killed off at the end of this film as well?

Great, i guess it really looks like I'll only have Avengers 2, CA 3, and X-Men: Apocalypse to look forward to within the next 2-3 years from now.

Oh dear lord... lee's in tailspin mode again. Somebody put a wallet under his tongue, I'll get the syringe with his meds.

 

[Herolee10]

Oh dear lord... lee's in tailspin mode again. Somebody put a wallet under his tongue, I'll get the syringe with his meds.

 

[Human Torch]

Death of Superman really isn't the most compelling of stories to begin with,but it's certainly too early for that story in this series.

 

[Herolee10]

All I'm certain is this...IF Superman is killed off at the end of this film after Batman outshines in the film and where the League is formed without him being involved in any way, then I'm done with this franchise.

 

[teagone]

Death of Superman really isn't the most compelling of stories to begin with,but it's certainly too early for that story in this series.

Says who? Another user made a good comparison of how we're introduced to the character of Gandalf in The Fellowship of the Ring and he "dies" by sacrificing himself because the character knows are bigger things than him happening in Middle-Earth, only to return in The Two Towers in epic fashion.

The point that makes is if written properly and well, the death of any given character that is important to the narrative can be a really good on a number of levels. That said, despite not being the most compelling comic arc, The Death of Superman is pretty well known I think, so it also has the positive of being somewhat familiar in the collective mind of the general audience (e.g., like Cap understanding that "reference" in The Avengers... it'd be an endorphin boost, haha).

 

[Herolee10]

Says who? Another user made a good comparison of how we're introduced to the character of Gandalf in The Fellowship of the Ring and he "dies" by sacrificing himself because the character knows are bigger things than him happening in Middle-Earth, only to return in The Two Towers in epic fashion.

At least the fellowship was already formed prior to Gandalf's death

 

[teagone]

At least the fellowship was already formed prior to Gandalf's death

That has nothing to do with the point I made, but ok. Not sure how or what that contributes to the dialogue/debate we're having.

 

[Reiter]

Death of Superman really isn't the most compelling of stories to begin with,but it's certainly too early for that story in this series.

It's apparently the only story people know. For batman they just know teh killing joke and the miller stories. Superman only gets doomsday.

He died for our sins. So deep.