The Dark Knight The Gotham Aesthetic... Or Lack Thereof.

[Fitzwilliam]

it didn't take away from how great the entire film was.

I completely agree. It was just something I was disappointed by.

 

[Shane Diesel]

don't be ridiculous...begins was shot in chicago and london and even a giant lot/hangar but blocked in a way so that it didn't resemble any recognizable city...along with added digitally enhanced background composites of other cities...TDK took that away a little and in my opinion showed disregard for the Gotham of Begins by blatantly placing it in Chicago without even trying to make us believe it could be some fictional mega city called Gotham...it clearly was Chicago...captured really well i might add, but still only a minor gripe of mine...and when and if the third movie comes along...i've accepted the fact that it'll be more like tdk. it didn't take away from how great the entire film was.

What's so ridiculous about not wanting a city that blatantly looks like a sound stage or a back lot? I've seen BR and B89 too many times to know that I prefer the look and feel of a real city.

Even in BB certain parts, especially the narrows, looked like a sound stage. It looked fake. I don't need to be patronized for wanting a city in a film to actually look and feel like a real city.

 

[Fitzwilliam]

It looked fake. I don't need to be patronized for wanting a city in a film to actually look and feel like a real city.

I think that at times the only realistism in TDK's Gotham were the physical buildings themselves... I felt a total absence of realism in the portrayal of a real city, it was souless... One thing which Gotham is not.

At least with Tim Burton's Batman in 1989, (must admit I'm a fan of the dark deco) while although the city may have been somewhat surreal, at least it looked like a city in which it's inhabitants actually lived, if you get me...

 

[raynorWilm]

yea TDK didnt do much to hide the Chicago in it (by design), but I think Gotham needs its own personality. Ive never been to Chicago and it was pretty obvious even for me. But Begins made an effort to give Gotham its own look and I think that worked the best..

 

[Shane Diesel]

I think that at times the only realistism in TDK's Gotham were the physical buildings themselves... I felt a total absence of realism in the portrayal of a real city, it was souless... One thing which Gotham is not.

At least with Tim Burton's Batman in 1989, (must admit I'm a fan of the dark deco) while although the city may have been somewhat surreal, at least it looked like a city in which it's inhabitants actually lived, if you get me...

Not to me. Even as a kid in the theater the Gotham of B89 looked like matte paintings and flimsy facades.

 

[Fitzwilliam]

Not to me. Even as a kid in the theater the Gotham of B89 looked like matte paintings and flimsy facades.

Well unfortunately CGI was yet to take off.

My point is that even though the set design of B89 was surreal, it had a soul and character. The 89 Gotham looked like the type of city in which that story would have taken place.

TDK is about people trying their best to help a city recover from crime and corruption. It follows the recent events of the virtual destruction of the narrows and the train line, and indeed large parts of the city. In BB Gotham is grimy and dark and dirty, and in TDK it's beautiful and fresh.

It's disingenuous IMO.

 

[hatebox]

Production designer nathan crowley said they specifically wanted to 'un-jumble' Gotham, so the characters would take center stage and not get eaten up by the busyness of the city... take that for what you will.

 

[Fitzwilliam]

Production designer nathan crowley said they specifically wanted to 'un-jumble' Gotham, so the characters would take center stage and not get eaten up by the busyness of the city... take that for what you will.

My point is that for me, be it in the comics or on film... Gotham is one of the central characters.

That quote shows that this was not the case in TDK, and that was a source of disappointment for me, despite my utter delight in watching it.

 

[hatebox]

And yet, we got a better feel for Gotham than any of the other films... funny that. The character of Gotham, and the way it responded to the Joker and Batman, was more evident than ever.

 

[Fitzwilliam]

And yet, we got a better feel for Gotham than any of the other films... funny that. The character of Gotham, and the way it responded to the Joker and Batman was more evident than ever.

LOL... Drop the 'tude dude!

I disagree with you. But that's because I think we have different conceptions of what the character of Gotham is meant to be.

We got how the people of the city reacted in TDK, and you're right, this was more evident in TDK than any other Batman. But I'm talking about the city itself.

 

[T-Mac woot]

Fitzwilliam-

What seems to get lost in your interpretation of Gotham in BB and TDK is that while both films take place in the same city, the primary scenes in each film take place in 2 different areas of the city. BB focused in on the narrows/Arkham/overall ghetto of the city. It is supposed to symbolize how the city is in ruins, and the city needs Batman as its savior. TDK takes place in the financial district/rich part of town, so of course it is nice and clean, just like almost every big city is in that part of town. It also takes place 1 year later, and with the mob crawled up in a fetal position, the town is the safest it has ever been.

I agree that Gotham could be a bit darker and soulful, but the realistic aspect of the city is in tact, as is the consistency from BB.

 

[mavsmaniac21]

it didnt bother me much or at all but i would have liked to see a little more character to the city. as far as the argument it should look worse cuz it is worse - its the crime and the corrupt city employees that make it nasty gotham.

 

[hatebox]

it didnt bother me much or at all but i would have liked to see a little more character to the city. as far as the argument it should look worse cuz it is worse - its the crime and the corrupt city employees that make it nasty gotham.

Exactly. Nolan's Gotham left a much worse taste in my mouth (as it should have done) because the 'cleanliness' was so heavily juxtaposed with the inherent corruption at almost every level. Begins and TDK portrayed the police force far more harshly than Burton's, and that's the character of Gotham I'm left with. Internal rot and corruption.

 

[CFE]

In my opinion, the "TDK" Gotham was decent...but the "89" Gotham was perfect.

If Nolan wants to take a more realistic approach that's fine...but just the same, I don't think his films should constitute that fans forget that Batman's world isn't realistic in the first place.

Gotham City, by definition, is a negative exaggeration of the stereotypical Major American City. It's an urban hell on earth.

Anton Furst's Gotham represents that more than any other...IMO.

EDIT: With the exploits of Lt. Eckhart and Boss Grissom, "89" Gotham also had its fair share of internal decay...but Gotham should have external as well...again, IMO.

CFE

 

[Fanticon]

What's so ridiculous about not wanting a city that blatantly looks like a sound stage or a back lot? I've seen BR and B89 too many times to know that I prefer the look and feel of a real city.

Even in BB certain parts, especially the narrows, looked like a sound stage. It looked fake. I don't need to be patronized for wanting a city in a film to actually look and feel like a real city.

I just meant that you were possibly over looking the fact that Begins not 89 or returns...was actually shot on location.

 

[The Sage]

I loved the Narrows of BB, but I love the bluish tint of TDK's Gotham. Then again, B89's Gotham just looked great.

 

[CFE]

I just meant that you were possibly over looking the fact that Begins not 89 or returns...was actually shot on location.

A portion yes...but the entirety of the Narrows EXT. as well as a significant chunk of the backdrop for when Batman is trailing the Monorail was shot on set in the Cardington Hangar.

Some of "TDK" was shot there as well, but more for inserts then actual set pieces..

CFE

 

[Carnotaur3]

Nolan wasn't interested in showing a slimy and corrupt city by the look of exterior buildings like in Burton's Batman. He was more interested in seeing the PEOPLE (a lot of which were slimy and corrupt themselves)of the city. That's the city he wanted you to feel. That's why Gotham had more personality in TDK.

But those who think that personality equals city buildings and not city inhabitants have they're priorities for the films in the wrong place. But thta's just my opinion.

 

[AndrewGilkison]

I thought Gotham looked fine in The Dark Knight. But I was more focused on the characters and what they were doing in the story that I just didn't pay that much attention to the production design.

I love the look of B89 Gotham. But Nolan would be a fool to try and ape that style. It doesn't "fit" him the way it fits Burton's directing style, and it would just look like he was doing a pale imitation.

 

[Fitzwilliam]

Nolan wasn't interested in showing a slimy and corrupt city by the look of exterior buildings like in Burton's Batman. He was more interested in seeing the PEOPLE (a lot of which were slimy and corrupt themselves)of the city. That's the city he wanted you to feel. That's why Gotham had more personality in TDK.

But those who think that personality equals city buildings and not city inhabitants have they're priorities for the films in the wrong place. But thta's just my opinion.

Dude, that's my whole point... Only the physical buildings in TDK's Gotham were real... IMO the city had no soul. Even B89's Gotham, despite it's Gothic look, seemed like a place which was inhabited by its citizens, Gotham in TDK does not achieve this effect for me.

I see what you mean though in a way. TDK's Gotham, being so clean and pristine was like a blank canvass onto which his characters could be painted.

But I don't like that... I like the way Gotham is usually a central character to the story. I like the way the look of Gotham reflects the general feel and tone of the city and the story. I love the pathetic fallacy approach to Gotham. I guess that's what my central argument is.

 

[Fitzwilliam]

I thought Gotham looked fine in The Dark Knight. But I was more focused on the characters and what they were doing in the story that I just didn't pay that much attention to the production design.

Well to me the production design in a film IS part of the story.

 

[LegendaryCaleb]

Nobody wants neon! But that doesn't mean there isn't a middleground between neon-infested candytown and Nolan's Gotham.

i understand what your saying...id really like a mix of gothic-ness from burtons films and realistic-ness from nolans films...if ya get what im saying...but i still liked nolans from TDK alot more than all the others

 

[Fitzwilliam]

i understand what your saying...id really like a mix of gothic-ness from burtons films and realistic-ness from nolans films...if ya get what im saying...but i still liked nolans from TDK alot more than all the others

I think that was achieved in a few scenes in BB... Like that aerial shot of Batman standing entirely still on the edge of one of the very tall buildings, surrounded by stone gargoyles. That was a perfect marriage of Burton and Nolan' visions IMO.

 

[LegendaryCaleb]

I think that was achieved in a few scenes in BB... Like that aerial shot of Batman standing entirely still on the edge of one of the very tall buildings, surrounded by stone gargoyles. That was a perfect marriage of Burton and Nolan' visions IMO.

i totally agree...i just disliked the orange tint in some of the shots...

 

[T-Mac woot]

Even B89's Gotham, despite it's Gothic look, seemed like a place which was inhabited by its citizens, Gotham in TDK does not achieve this effect for me.
.

That is what you are missing, though. Again, as I said in my 1st post, TDK is set in a part of Gotham where the business/finance/government is located, like every downtown of every major city has. It wasn't supposed to have the character of the more raw, grimmier sections of town like the narrows. You can argue that more of the neighborhoods around town should have been used to give the city a more vibrant, personal feel, but the consistency between the 2 films and how that certain section of Gotham was shot are spot on IMO.