The Hype Religion Discussion and Debate thread!

[-Arya-]

Who will all die and also cease to exist.

Well...yes. The best we can do in the time being is to curb suffering in the best possible way. While you will eventually die someday, I see no reason why you cannot find some joy (however temporary it may be) in your life until that point.

You will find life to be incredibly depressing if you continue to think 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, that there is no purpose. In the meantime, wouldn't you want to increase happiness as best as you can?

 

[Danger Mouse]

Is that your price for servitude? The promise of a reward?

Yes.

But don't be naive that it's only a phenomenon apparent in people who subscribes to religion. We all serve someone or something with the promise of a reward. The only difference is that divine reward is far more fulfilling which goes beyond financial gains.

 

[Saint]

Having an afterlife or somehow being immortal would be the only way it is truly worth it to live at all.

You don't seem able to explain how. I'd like to know how continuing to exist as a floaty cloud man validates anything you do.

 

[Alex The Great]

Ummm... because God rewards?

Rewards what exactlyy? I'd like to know what this is

 

[Bill]

People around you...who also eventually die and cease to be and are forgotten. So nothing that anyone does matter in the long run. Life and death itself has no ultimate meaning, and is pointless. Having an afterlife or somehow being immortal would be the only way it is truly worth it to live at all. If neither exist (and obviously I am not saying either does) then everyone's ultimate fate is to fade away and I thing a huge reason religion developed in the first place was to give people hope for a next life...a next life that no one can proves exists and may well be a lie.

The biggest problem with eternal life is the perception of time. As you get older, your perception of time quickens. Imagine the quickness of time to a being 1000's of years old. Millions. Billions. Infinity. What would those who wish for an afterlife do with all that time? Think about it.

You're looking for some objective meaning. There isn't any. The one religion gives you is an illusion. It was created and written by men and only has power over those who choose to perceive the world within the boundaries it provides. And people who are afraid of living and life, and what comes after, are more than willing to work within those boundaries.

People discuss a lack of purpose without religion. Religion gives you its purpose. It is imposed upon you. I don't think that a purpose given to you is somehow better than one you decide for yourself. But that doesn't help you because you seem incapable of deciding for yourself. Perhaps you need, or are looking, to be told what to do.

No clue who they were and that's what so depressing about it-to feel we will all end up gone as if we never existed.

You seem determined to feel that life only has purpose if you have more of it. Will being alive forever give you purpose? How long will it take for you to decide that it does? Or is it the length of time that gives it purpose or meaning? Or are you capable of finding it now, living out the short life you have for yourself, and then when it is time to die, know that you lived this short life to the best of your ability with no regrets? If you die tomorrow or one hundred years from now, your life will have meaning to you if you decide to give it one. If not, then no one will care, because you didn't care enough to give anyone a reason.

 

[Saint]

The only difference is that divine reward is far more fulfilling which goes beyond financial gains.

As an aside, it's important to note that people only believe this because they are told it is the case by other people. You really have no idea what a divine being might reward you with, if anything.

I wouldn't serve my neighbour if he offered me access to a magic batmobile after my death. I wouldn't serve God if a priest offered me exclusive access to God's Eternal Cloud Spa after I die, either.

 

[Alex The Great]

Exactly. I don't care about the reward of seeing Jesus in heavan. But hey, the reward of winning the lottery or getting a big raise or promotion, that **** is real

 

[Kurosawa]

Well...yes. The best we can do in the time being is to curb suffering in the best possible way. While you will eventually die someday, I see no reason why you cannot find some joy (however temporary it may be) in your life until that point.

You will find life to be incredibly depressing if you continue to think 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, that there is no purpose. In the meantime, wouldn't you want to increase happiness as best as you can?

You can make the best of it but with no reward it's still seems pointless.

You don't seem able to explain how. I'd like to know how continuing to exist as a floaty cloud man validates anything you do.

You're still existing is the big one instead of ceasing to be. You're still alive, just in a different form...if it is real that is.

 

[Bill]

Yes.

But don't be naive that it's only a phenomenon apparent in people who subscribes to religion. We all serve someone or something with the promise of a reward. The only difference is that divine reward is far more fulfilling which goes beyond financial gains.

There is a slight difference between working for a living and servitude in hopes for some type of chance at an afterlife. Don't be silly enough to compare the two. After all, I don't see any penniless vagabond Christians giving up their last worldly possessions to free themselves of their fleshly desires and make the road to Heaven any less winding for them.

Those who don't subscribe to religion aren't looking for something to be handed to them in the next life for charity or being kind to their fellow man. They do it for self-satisfaction. You can't claim good deeds on a tax return. Or hope that it is some rich guy in disguise about to reward you for giving him your coat.

No, I would pose the question that if you weren't going to get some reward in the afterlife, would you still be a good person, do good deeds, or subscribe to a religion? I know what my answer would be, but I am willing to bet that if any religion failed to promise the hope for life after death or an eternal reward would also fail to capture as many sheep in it's flock.

 

[Saint]

You're still existing is the big one instead of ceasing to be. You're still alive, just in a different form...if it is real that is.

You didn't answer the question. I asked "How does continuing to exist validate anything you did in life?" and you answered "Because you continue to exist."

 

[-Arya-]

You can make the best of it but with no reward it's still seems pointless.

Disregarding the future for the time being, wouldn't you still want to make the best out of it right now?

I know you've lost some family members recently, and I'm not sure what portion of your current state of mind is connected to that event, but these all seem like issues you need to discuss with someone to a greater degree.

 

[Alex The Great]

Uhhh wha? You continue to exist because you eat, drink, have a good job, healthy living...


So yeah

 

[Sloth7d]

Well...yes. The best we can do in the time being is to curb suffering in the best possible way. While you will eventually die someday, I see no reason why you cannot find some joy (however temporary it may be) in your life until that point.

You will find life to be incredibly depressing if you continue to think 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, that there is no purpose. In the meantime, wouldn't you want to increase happiness as best as you can?

Are you a subscriber to Epicurean philosphy Arya?

I enjoyed this short paper on the philosophy.
http://prevos.net/ola/death.pdf

 

[Danger Mouse]

You're free to elaborate.

The Riddle of Epicurus:

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"


First of all, God did not make this world a permanent world. This is a temporary world and everything here has a time limit. When its times comes it will die, come to an end and finish. Neither the good things of this world are forever, nor the bad things eternal. We are here for a short time and we are being tested. Those who will pass this test will find an eternal world that is perfect and permanent. Those who will fail this test shall see the consequences of their sins and corruption.

Secondly, God has placed a physical law and a moral law in this universe. God allows suffering to occur when one or more of these laws are broken. The physical law is based on cause and effect. Sickness comes if one does not take care of one's health or is exposed to infections. A car accident occurs when one is not alert, or drives in a careless manner, or if the cars are not checked, roads and freeways are not made and kept in right shape, or the traffic laws are not right or not properly enforced. Study of causes and effects is very important to facilitate safeguards. Even here we should keep in mind that God often saves us and He does not let us suffer from every negligence. How many times it happens that we are not careful and still we reach safely to our destinations? The way people drive in some cities, it is a miracle that more accidents do not happen and more people do not suffer.

The way we exceed the measures set by God and violate His laws of cause and effect is incredible. It is really the mercy of God that we are saved. Strictly speaking, the question should not be why does God allow suffering, but how much God protects us and saves us all the time in spite of our violations and negligence.

Thirdly, suffering can also be a test and trial for some people. God allows some people to suffer in order to test their patience and steadfastness. Good people sometimes suffer but their sufferings heal others and bring goodness to their communities. People learn lessons from their good examples. Martyrs die for their faith, soldiers give their lives for their nations and this brings liberation and freedom for their people.

Fourthly, God sometimes allows some people to suffer to test others, how they react to them. When you see a person who is sick, poor and needy, then you are tested by God. God is there with that suffering person to test your charity and your faith.

So to summarize, we can say that sufferings occur to teach us that we must adhere to God's natural and moral laws. It is to test our faith in God and to test our commitment to human values and charity. Whenever we encounter suffering we should ask ourselves "have we broken any divine commandment?" so we study the cause of the problem and use the corrective methods; "could it be a punishment?" so we can repent and ask forgiveness and reform our ways; "could it be a test and trial for us?" so we can work hard to pass this test.


We always ask ourselves why do pain and sufferings exist in the world. We find sickness, old age and death. We see things that are ugly, people who are insane and foolish. There are storms, earthquakes, floods, draught and famine. We also see people commit sins, show disloyalty, unfaithfulness, greed and insincerity. We see people commit rapes, murders; they fight and make wars. We know all these and many more problems. There are evils caused by human beings and there are natural disasters. There are suffering for individuals and there are those that involve a large number of people.

But we also know that this is not the whole story. Besides all these negative things, we also see beauty, health, prosperity, life, birth, wisdom, intelligence, growth and progress. We also see goodness among people, faith, sincerity, charity, love and the spirit of sacrifice. We also see a lot of virtue and piety. It is wrong to see one side of the coin and not to see the other side.

Any philosophy that concentrates on one aspect of the creation and denies or ignores the other side is partially true and partial truths are no truth at all.

It is also the fact that the element of good is more in the creation than the element of evil. We all see that there are more people who are healthy than those who are sick. There are more that eat well than those who starve. There are more that lead decent lives than those who commit crimes.

We seem to have forgotten that goodness is the rule and evil is the exception. Virtue is the norm and sin is the aberration.

 

[-Arya-]

Are you a subscriber to Epicurean philosphy Arya?

I enjoyed this short paper on the philosophy.
http://prevos.net/ola/death.pdf

No, I unfortunately haven't had the pleasure. It was just something I picked up from reading various books by different authors, which in retrospect probably were readers of Epicurus.

I'd like to read the paper, but the link isn't working. If you could PM it to me I'd appreciate it.

 

[Saint]

The afterlife is the coolest club on the block, God is the bouncer, and the line to get in is your life. Are you now filled with meaning and purpose? When God decides whether you get in, does this validate your existence?


Another important detail: when you get to the front of the line, God is going to hold you responsible for imperfections he built you with, which may determine whether you get into the club. Are you filled with purpose? Are you validated?

 

[redhawk23]

Your consciousness is really just energy across electrochemical relays. Energy is never created or destroyed, just transfered, repurposed, reorganized.

 

[Kurosawa]

You didn't answer the question. I asked "How does continuing to exist validate anything you did in life?" and you answered "Because you continue to exist."

Well, if you believe then eternal life in paradise validates your life, and obviously eternal hell is supposed to be a deterrent to being evil. Not saying it is so, of course.

Disregarding the future for the time being, wouldn't you still want to make the best out of it right now?

I know you've lost some family members recently, and I'm not sure what portion of your current state of mind is connected to that event, but these all seem like issues you need to discuss with someone to a greater degree.

Yeah, it's hard knowing they're gone and feeling that it's over, their existence is over, and sooner or later everyone who knew them will be gone too, so then they won't even be remembered. It makes the very act of life feel without worth or reward or anything. That's why people believe and want to believe, although there is no proof and it's hard for me to buy something without proof.

The Riddle of Epicurus:

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"


First of all, God did not make this world a permanent world. This is a temporary world and everything here has a time limit. When its times comes it will die, come to an end and finish. Neither the good things of this world are forever, nor the bad things eternal. We are here for a short time and we are being tested. Those who will pass this test will find an eternal world that is perfect and permanent. Those who will fail this test shall see the consequences of their sins and corruption.

Secondly, God has placed a physical law and a moral law in this universe. God allows suffering to occur when one or more of these laws are broken. The physical law is based on cause and effect. Sickness comes if one does not take care of one's health or is exposed to infections. A car accident occurs when one is not alert, or drives in a careless manner, or if the cars are not checked, roads and freeways are not made and kept in right shape, or the traffic laws are not right or not properly enforced. Study of causes and effects is very important to facilitate safeguards. Even here we should keep in mind that God often saves us and He does not let us suffer from every negligence. How many times it happens that we are not careful and still we reach safely to our destinations? The way people drive in some cities, it is a miracle that more accidents do not happen and more people do not suffer.

The way we exceed the measures set by God and violate His laws of cause and effect is incredible. It is really the mercy of God that we are saved. Strictly speaking, the question should not be why does God allow suffering, but how much God protects us and saves us all the time in spite of our violations and negligence.

Thirdly, suffering can also be a test and trial for some people. God allows some people to suffer in order to test their patience and steadfastness. Good people sometimes suffer but their sufferings heal others and bring goodness to their communities. People learn lessons from their good examples. Martyrs die for their faith, soldiers give their lives for their nations and this brings liberation and freedom for their people.

Fourthly, God sometimes allows some people to suffer to test others, how they react to them. When you see a person who is sick, poor and needy, then you are tested by God. God is there with that suffering person to test your charity and your faith.

So to summarize, we can say that sufferings occur to teach us that we must adhere to God's natural and moral laws. It is to test our faith in God and to test our commitment to human values and charity. Whenever we encounter suffering we should ask ourselves "have we broken any divine commandment?" so we study the cause of the problem and use the corrective methods; "could it be a punishment?" so we can repent and ask forgiveness and reform our ways; "could it be a test and trial for us?" so we can work hard to pass this test.


We always ask ourselves why do pain and sufferings exist in the world. We find sickness, old age and death. We see things that are ugly, people who are insane and foolish. There are storms, earthquakes, floods, draught and famine. We also see people commit sins, show disloyalty, unfaithfulness, greed and insincerity. We see people commit rapes, murders; they fight and make wars. We know all these and many more problems. There are evils caused by human beings and there are natural disasters. There are suffering for individuals and there are those that involve a large number of people.

But we also know that this is not the whole story. Besides all these negative things, we also see beauty, health, prosperity, life, birth, wisdom, intelligence, growth and progress. We also see goodness among people, faith, sincerity, charity, love and the spirit of sacrifice. We also see a lot of virtue and piety. It is wrong to see one side of the coin and not to see the other side.

Any philosophy that concentrates on one aspect of the creation and denies or ignores the other side is partially true and partial truths are no truth at all.

It is also the fact that the element of good is more in the creation than the element of evil. We all see that there are more people who are healthy than those who are sick. There are more that eat well than those who starve. There are more that lead decent lives than those who commit crimes.

We seem to have forgotten that goodness is the rule and evil is the exception. Virtue is the norm and sin is the aberration.

Kinda sounds like it's all an experiment and we are on the G-man's Petri dish...great, life is the last few issues of Infinite Crisis.

 

[-Arya-]

The Riddle of Epicurus:

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"


First of all, God did not make this world a permanent world. This is a temporary world and everything here has a time limit. When its times comes it will die, come to an end and finish. Neither the good things of this world are forever, nor the bad things eternal. We are here for a short time and we are being tested. Those who will pass this test will find an eternal world that is perfect and permanent. Those who will fail this test shall see the consequences of their sins and corruption.

Secondly, God has placed a physical law and a moral law in this universe. God allows suffering to occur when one or more of these laws are broken. The physical law is based on cause and effect. Sickness comes if one does not take care of one's health or is exposed to infections. A car accident occurs when one is not alert, or drives in a careless manner, or if the cars are not checked, roads and freeways are not made and kept in right shape, or the traffic laws are not right or not properly enforced. Study of causes and effects is very important to facilitate safeguards. Even here we should keep in mind that God often saves us and He does not let us suffer from every negligence. How many times it happens that we are not careful and still we reach safely to our destinations? The way people drive in some cities, it is a miracle that more accidents do not happen and more people do not suffer.

The way we exceed the measures set by God and violate His laws of cause and effect is incredible. It is really the mercy of God that we are saved. Strictly speaking, the question should not be why does God allow suffering, but how much God protects us and saves us all the time in spite of our violations and negligence.

Thirdly, suffering can also be a test and trial for some people. God allows some people to suffer in order to test their patience and steadfastness. Good people sometimes suffer but their sufferings heal others and bring goodness to their communities. People learn lessons from their good examples. Martyrs die for their faith, soldiers give their lives for their nations and this brings liberation and freedom for their people.

Fourthly, God sometimes allows some people to suffer to test others, how they react to them. When you see a person who is sick, poor and needy, then you are tested by God. God is there with that suffering person to test your charity and your faith.

So to summarize, we can say that sufferings occur to teach us that we must adhere to God's natural and moral laws. It is to test our faith in God and to test our commitment to human values and charity. Whenever we encounter suffering we should ask ourselves "have we broken any divine commandment?" so we study the cause of the problem and use the corrective methods; "could it be a punishment?" so we can repent and ask forgiveness and reform our ways; "could it be a test and trial for us?" so we can work hard to pass this test.


We always ask ourselves why do pain and sufferings exist in the world. We find sickness, old age and death. We see things that are ugly, people who are insane and foolish. There are storms, earthquakes, floods, draught and famine. We also see people commit sins, show disloyalty, unfaithfulness, greed and insincerity. We see people commit rapes, murders; they fight and make wars. We know all these and many more problems. There are evils caused by human beings and there are natural disasters. There are suffering for individuals and there are those that involve a large number of people.

But we also know that this is not the whole story. Besides all these negative things, we also see beauty, health, prosperity, life, birth, wisdom, intelligence, growth and progress. We also see goodness among people, faith, sincerity, charity, love and the spirit of sacrifice. We also see a lot of virtue and piety. It is wrong to see one side of the coin and not to see the other side.

Any philosophy that concentrates on one aspect of the creation and denies or ignores the other side is partially true and partial truths are no truth at all.

It is also the fact that the element of good is more in the creation than the element of evil. We all see that there are more people who are healthy than those who are sick. There are more that eat well than those who starve. There are more that lead decent lives than those who commit crimes.

We seem to have forgotten that goodness is the rule and evil is the exception. Virtue is the norm and sin is the aberration.

All I read here were excuses, and rationalizations withouth any explanation as to why it is this way, how you know it is this way, and if it is really the best method an omnicient being could come up with. Because if this the best the diety could come up with, I'm not impressed. I'd also like to know which God you are referring to in this post, and why its plans for an afterlife will be better than others.

 

[Danger Mouse]

No, I would pose the question that if you weren't going to get some reward in the afterlife, would you still be a good person, do good deeds, or subscribe to a religion?

Really, it depends on my station in life. If I do not believe in God and an afterlife, how I lead my life would greatly be depended on the circumstances of my life. If I am a millionaire, then it would be easier to do charity. Even then, it would not be without some degree of self-interest (tax relief, perhaps?) However, if faced with grave financial difficulties and I do not have religion for guidance, I would do whatever it takes to be back in the black, which might include the commission of crime to achieve wealth.

This reminds me of a movie I recently watched: Armored, starring Matt Dillon and Lawrence Fishburn. In this movie, a guy who works with an armored security company was persuaded to partake in a billion-dollar heist. Considering that his house was about to be foreclosed and his brother to be taken by the welfare services, it was an easy decision indeed. Had I not been guided by religion, I, too, might be persuaded to abscond with the cash.

However, a person with enough religious guidance would not get involved on the realisation that it is not his money to take in the first place and no money is not worth risking the divine rewards if he stays true to his beliefs. He would choose to face his hardship as a divine test of his resilience of which he SHALL be rewarded if he passed.

 

[redhawk23]

I have nothing against other people making religion a large part of their lives, but I absolutely abhor when people insinuate they my life is less fullfilling than theirs because I don't. How can they make a judgement on how content I feel? Makes no sense.

 

[Danger Mouse]

All I read here were excuses, and rationalizations withouth any explanation as to why it is this way, how you know it is this way, and if it is really the best method an omnicient being could come up with. Because if this the best the diety could come up with, I'm not impressed.

Fine by me if you see it that way. I don't blame you. You're set in your ways. I'm not out to convert you.

I'd also like to know which God you are referring to in this post.

Does it matter? It applies regardless of faith. Well, Abrahaimic faith, at least.

 

[redhawk23]

Really, it depends on my station in life. If I do not believe in God and an afterlife, how I lead my life would greatly be depended on the circumstances of my life. If I am a millionaire, then it would be easier to do charity. Even then, it would not be without some degree of self-interest (tax relief, perhaps?) However, if faced with grave financial difficulties and I do not have religion for guidance, I would do whatever it takes to be back in the black, which might include the commission of crime to achieve wealth.

This reminds me of a movie I recently watched: Armored, starring Matt Dillon and Lawrence Fishburn. In this movie, a guy who works with an armored security company was persuaded to partake in a billion-dollar heist. Considering that his house was about to be foreclosed and his brother to be taken by the welfare services, it was an easy decision indeed. Had I not been guided by religion, I, too, might be persuaded to abscond with the cash.

However, a person with enough religious guidance would not get involved on the realisation that it is not his money to take in the first place and no money is not worth risking the divine rewards if he stays true to his beliefs. He would choose to face his hardship as a divine test of his resilience of which he SHALL be rewarded if he passed.

You make the assumption that religion is needed for ethics, this is not the case.

 

[Danger Mouse]

I have nothing against other people making religion a large part of their lives, but I absolutely abhor when people insinuate they my life is less fullfilling than theirs because I don't. How can they make a judgement on how content I feel? Makes no sense.

I agree.

 

[-Arya-]

Does it matter? It applies regardless of faith. Well, Abrahaimic faith, at least.

So unless you are a part of the Abrahamic faith, you're more or less lost as a person. Would this be an accurate description?