The Incredible Hulk - What went wrong?

[Chewy]

You can think what you'd like. What did you think I just searched in a short amount of time to find an opinion that matched mine? haha

Yes, that's what I think.

And yes, The Guard is probably the best movie mind on these boards. And has been around since the begining, and knows more of what he's talking about than virtually everyone here.

No offense to The Guard, but I seriously doubt that he is "the best movie mind" on this boards. He's written some great posts, and I have seen nothing that I don't respect about him, but to insinuate he is the smartest on these boards is ludicrous.

I was under the impression 2002 wasn't the beginning, but you learn something new every day I guess.

I didn't say anyone's opinion wasn't valid. I find it convienent you can adrdress me on a topic like this and not comment on NoirMan82's similar comments and attempts to squash other people's opinions. I never went to the extents he did ... I never said anyone who thinks TIH is better than HULK needs psychiatric help, now did I? Do your homework first, brosef.

You've spoken of circle jerks, 12-year-olds and flinstones level intelligent. (spelled just as such) You've stated repeatedly that TIH has no redeeming qualities and that Ang's film is a masterpiece. You've stated TIH did nothing. I think that's a little worse than some psychiatry talk.

 

[Zig-Zag Man]

TIH has to get over $150 domestically to really be considered a success. BEGINS surpassed it's production budget given domestic numbers.

 

[Hmarrs]

The applause came from a seperate character, Tony Stark. Just grasp that for a second ... the biggest applause and reaction came at the end, when a more talented film maker's character appeared on screen. The film's CGI was bad, but so was the actual film. The plot was thinner than paper, and there was no character development. This movie was by no means memorable or good.

Ang Lee's HULK, while polarizing, was a very good film when held to the standards of experienced and knowledgeable film critics. HULK too was a successful movie in terms of grosses. But here's the thing, HULK made you remember it one way or another. Whether you loathed it, or loved it. What did THE INCREDIBLE HULK do? Nothing. It doesn't say or do anything. It had a few video game scenes that were in not so many ways a duplicate of the previous film, albeit with less meaning and depth ... but ultimately you walk away from the movie and the entire story (or lack there of) is totally forgetable. People however will always remember HULK. It inspired some reaction in people. Where as TIH just flounders as a dumb action movie that makes NO memorable moments.

I agree.
You know what else when you said:"What did THE INCREDIBLE HULK do? Nothing."
do you know why?Because it took no risks at all.Ang Lee love it or leave it,but the man took some chances.In the new Hulk movie they threw everything in there,from the T.V. show to the comics.They themselves were afraid to fail so what did they do they played it safe.
Marvel said just throw a bunch of action scenes but just wait a couple of years and watch it again.It will get old really fast.Just like the box office numbers.I wasn't too crazy about everything in the Ang Lee movie but this movie made me want to watch it again.

 

[TheVileOne]

I don't know if I believe there was a whole lot wrong with this movie, at least the movie itself.

I think the marketing came in too late, it should have been on top of its game like Iron Man, but who is to say that would have helped

look the movie made 55 million in its first week which is pretty consistent with what a movie in the 130's budget generally need to make to make money. The movie is doing well internationally not dropping off very much, and holding a strong second place in an over crowded weekend.

The problem is 2003 really, if this would have been the first Hulk movie released this movie would easily get to 200 million dollars.

Next weekend will be interesting to see Wanted comes out which is an action movie junkies dream, however it doesn't necessarily negate those who may go see the Hulk considering it is PG-13 vs R.

If Hulk can get some legs under it, it could easily get too 140 and be considered a mild hit and hopefully market the sequel properly like TDK

Whether the movie would've made as much as $200 million in 2003 is very arguable. I think more than the last Hulk movie yeah, but whatever. This is also a $150 million+ movie by all reports, not a $130 million. The last Hulk movie cost $137 million and made about $132 million.

Also, critical reviews for this movie weren't that great. And word of mouth clearly hasn't been all that great either. I'm sure fans are happy with this movie, but you know, you would think if the word of mouth was so awesome irregardless of 2003 that people seeing it the first weekend would tell people to go see it the second.

 

[snoodmonger]

I agree with all of the above, and I also think the main character being cgi also has something to do with it. No matter how impressive it ever gets, its still not real, and I'm not sure how involved the average moviegoer can ever get with something like that. Who knows, by the time they make the Avengers movie, it may look alot better, but I just think in terms of other Superhero Movies that have fantastic acting on its side (TDK, Ironman) the Hulk loses that once Norton has to step aside for the big man to do his thing. Heath Ledger is said to have given a great performance, RDJ gave a stellar performance, Norton can only do so much with a chopped up movie full of edits & a title character that removes him from the screen, for all intents & purposes. Either that or in the illlustrious words of the Hulk, we're all just Puny Humans after all....

I partly agree with you. It is a shame that the very premise of the movie requires the best actor from the screen. But I don't think that hurdle is insurmountable. A couple of ways to fix this:

A. Give Norton more screen time with actors of comparable skill. No disrespect to Tyler, because she actually exceeded my (low) expectations, but it's a shame we had Norton, Roth, and Hurt on the same set, and Norton barely interacted with them. When you have actors of that caliber, find a way to use them.

Still, you can't avoid the fact that Norton will be off-screen for large segments. Because of that, you have to give the Hulk a more dynamic character. He wasn't much more than a blunt instrument in TiH. Sure, they did some characterization, and what they did was good, but he was still too animal to identify with. Make him something we can love...or hate. Or both.

There are two elements of Hulk in the comics I'd like to see on the screen. The first is his hatred of Banner. (And Banner's hatred of him.) Think "Hulk: The End." Banner and Hulk should be two separate characters with distinct and contradictory desires. Banner's conflict becomes stronger this way, because his desire to rid himself of Hulk is opposed by the Hulk himself. It's an internal conflict externalized.

The second element is Hulk as a rogue hero. I don't want to see him as a bad guy. He should be on the right side of things more often than not, but his motivations should be different than Banner's. Banner is a hero. Hulk is something different. That's why he fights the heroes as often as he fights the bad guys. That element (IMO) should be played up more. Hulk as the Alpha creature. Not just Hulk as the persecuted victim.

However he is portrayed, he should be less primal and more complex. Give him desires and motivations beyond just self-preservation and Betty. I think he'd be a more interesting character to the casual viewer that way.

 

[Sentinel X]

Which proves my point exactly on how current audiences and much of the fan base are total idiots. I'm not speaking for any masses, just for myself. You seem to be speaking in some factual language that TIH is a better movie than HULK, which couldn't be further from the truth.

It's funny, your 12 year old brain may have got off on all the action. You could've had a circle jerk with your friends in the theatre for all I care. Fact is, there is little to the movie and it doesn't mean, say, or do anything worth while. I damn near fell asleep on the movie in my second viewing. And the most intelligent, and best movie mind on these boards fell asleep during TIH. Why? Because it's trying to cater to young teenage boys, and skips any sort of character development, acting, and story arcs. It's a PS3 video game that has a few connecting scenes that don't mean anything other than to get you to the next action sequence.

Especially when Ang Lee's film graps the concepts of the Hulk mythos appropriately, and all TIH is for is a few action scenes that are duplicates and even lesser versions of a movie that had already been made. It is virtually less spectacular in every way. That's why most so called "fans" don't even know what they're talking about. Ang Lee understood the depths of the character, and the intelligence behind it. LL reduced some peoples favorite character to a vague cartoon character, both literally and figuratively. The CGI was Xbox 360 caliber for most of th emovie. Where as ILM created a more believable living, breathing HULK ... 5 YEARS AGO!!! TIH's cgi is a regression in comparison.

I knew there were a few conceited people on these boards but whatever happened to being subtle? yeesh

 

[Hypestyle]

fans should go see the movie again this weekend! boycott Wall-E!

i'll go see it again for sure... matinee, of course..

 

[Anubis Raptor]

Nothing went wrong.

 

[DoubleM]

first of all, the movie itself was great! it irks me to read all this criticizm from Iron Man(and Batman) Fanboys about how TIH just isn't a good movie and that's why it fails, blah blah.
no. TIH was great. there's nothing wrong about it. no changes are needed.
the reason why TIH isn't doing well at the BO is because of the bad timing. releasing this movie in the midst of all the other big movies surrounding it. perhaps, if TIH was released at the beginning(like Iron Man) or at the end of these summer movies, it would've performed better. and also the fact that TIH was released too soon after Ang Lee's movie, is a factor.
and another point...
basically, other than superhero fanboys such as myself and all of us in here, the general public doesn't know why a new Hulk movie had to be rushed out this soon. obviously us fanboys know that Marvel rushed this new Hulk reboot out inorder to setup The Avengers movie set to be released in 2011(i think). otherwise, there wouldn't have been such a rush to get this Hulk movie out. infact, i don't even know if it even mattered to have this new Hulk movie come out Before the Avengers to set it up. it's just still too soon of a gap from Ang Lee's movie that still relatively fresh in most people's minds.
I think Marvel should've/could've waited on this Hulk movie. they should've waited until after they released Captain America, Thor, and Iron Man 2. and maybe by then, the world would be ready for a new Hulk movie. which could still serve as a setup for The Avengers movie. i don't understand why Marvel is putting all this pressure on themselves by pigeonholing themselves into a set time-constraint for The Avengers release. just let things unravel with the flow of the market, and be flexible with these release dates. it would be more rewarding financially for them, and satisfactorily for us.

I think this man here knows what he's talking about. They could have brought the Hulk back after the Captain America and Thor Movies.

 

[jrd550]

The other thing to keep in mind is that even if TIH makes less than the 2003 version this time around Marvel gets to keep a much, much higher percentage of the profits... so while it may not have warranted Universal in 2003 to make a sequel, $150 million domestic take may be enough to bring the Hulk back in the future...

Also DVD sales are certainly going to bring in a lot of revenue, especially if they follow Warner's model of releasing a theatrical quasi bare bones version for Blockbuster and Netflix to purchase, and DC/Deluxe version at a higher price point for the true fans.

 

[November Rain]

Has anyone actually considered the fact they haven't yet given us a hulk story worth watching and that's ultimately why both films are both getting the same amounts.

I mean if you ask the average batman or spiderman person or iron man, they'd pretty much tell you very similar things about what they want from an initial movie. origin, motivation, powers, villains and future antagonists.


With a hulk fan, it's just a pretty big mess. They want gamma bomb beginning, a fight with the abomination and don't really give a monkeys about the rest which the writers then fill with tv series crap.

To be honest, if i wanted to watch a simple tv series plot, i would watch the series, they repeated pretty much the same motivation every other episode, like a lot of shows back in that era, they were incredibly repetitive so yet again repeating that on screen is not the most thrilling of things.

I'm currently under the impression that they need to change the direction with the hulk.

Bring in grey hulk and she hulk and expand the general publics perception of the character (especially his splintered psyche), also have him cameoing and fighting other heroes.

Apart from that, I can't really see the hulk suceeding in any future market. He's been made to be too 2 dimensional.

NOthing will ever make the hulk as sucessful in this medium as iron man, cap, spidey, batman or superman if they keep him stagnated.

look at trends in current trends and future trends in spiderman, batman, iron man, x-men and superman

They all have aspects with darker aspects of someone's character coming out and how the hero deals with that. maybe the grey hulk should represent banner's needs and desires and deal with how someone who has been on the run deals with having the power to do whatever he wants without any consequences.

unless you have the money to dedicate money to a truelly 30 minute long fight scene with incredible versatility and cutting out the faff and concentrating on the violent aspect, then the hulk moneywise is always going to be a dead end character.

consider this, with both films, are heroes pretty much end up in the same place, isolated in some remote area somewhat inducing their metamorphasis. Now what the hell does that teach you about anything? it's not like there are any real life lessons being given out or any true moral lessons beating you over the head, no great power great responsibility, no 'i must you my gifts for mankind', no 'I need to be responsible for the mess i've created', no 'i'll beat you in the court room, not on the field' All you get is 'hulk smash'

maybe no one actually wants that.

 

[Obi-Ron]

I prefer to think the character is versatile enough to stand up to different interpretations. That's one of the things I like best about him.
Except...

Bring in grey hulk and she hulk

IMO neither one is worthy of the big screen. They would just get laughed at.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Has anyone actually considered the fact they haven't yet given us a hulk story worth watching and that's ultimately why both films are both getting the same amounts.

I mean if you ask the average batman or spiderman person or iron man, they'd pretty much tell you very similar things about what they want from an initial movie. origin, motivation, powers, villains and future antagonists.


With a hulk fan, it's just a pretty big mess. They want gamma bomb beginning, a fight with the abomination and don't really give a monkeys about the rest which the writers then fill with tv series crap.

To be honest, if i wanted to watch a simple tv series plot, i would watch the series, they repeated pretty much the same motivation every other episode, like a lot of shows back in that era, they were incredibly repetitive so yet again repeating that on screen is not the most thrilling of things.

I'm currently under the impression that they need to change the direction with the hulk.

Bring in grey hulk and she hulk and expand the general publics perception of the character (especially his splintered psyche), also have him cameoing and fighting other heroes.

Apart from that, I can't really see the hulk suceeding in any future market. He's been made to be too 2 dimensional.

NOthing will ever make the hulk as sucessful in this medium as iron man, cap, spidey, batman or superman if they keep him stagnated.

look at trends in current trends and future trends in spiderman, batman, iron man, x-men and superman

They all have aspects with darker aspects of someone's character coming out and how the hero deals with that. maybe the grey hulk should represent banner's needs and desires and deal with how someone who has been on the run deals with having the power to do whatever he wants without any consequences.

unless you have the money to dedicate money to a truelly 30 minute long fight scene with incredible versatility and cutting out the faff and concentrating on the violent aspect, then the hulk moneywise is always going to be a dead end character.

consider this, with both films, are heroes pretty much end up in the same place, isolated in some remote area somewhat inducing their metamorphasis. Now what the hell does that teach you about anything? it's not like there are any real life lessons being given out or any true moral lessons beating you over the head, no great power great responsibility, no 'i must you my gifts for mankind', no 'I need to be responsible for the mess i've created', no 'i'll beat you in the court room, not on the field' All you get is 'hulk smash'

maybe no one actually wants that.

Thats why i'm angry Marvel cut things out of this movie like the arctic scene and 'Hulk Vision.' Both of these were something we have never seen in a CB movie before, and one of the few things i was looking forward to seeing before the movie came out. Marvel played it a bit too safe, do something different (but obviously not as different as Ang's awesomely unique vision which unfortunately failed to grasp the GA), and you may just get the crowds in.

 

[Spider Edge]

too bad we didn't get to see the Arctic scene or Hulk vision......

 

[Lauryn2000]

Folks except "fanboys" weren't interested....another Hulk movie...been there,done that...Hulk has come and gone..I saw it and enjoyed it but I'm a Marvel fan...they didn't really advertise to get the general public interested again..and I'm sure Ed Norton not really doing any press for the movie until the week of...didn't help.....the fact is many have moved on.....to "Iron Man"....

 

[November Rain]

I prefer to think the character is versatile enough to stand up to different interpretations. That's one of the things I like best about him.
Except...

IMO neither one is worthy of the big screen. They would just get laughed at.

Personally I believe that the hulk is probably one of the most singularly interesting characters in the whole of comicdom based on his shared psychological profile with other manifestations of himself and banner. However, I don't think people really want to see this aspect of him or banner.

As for the later, it would end up widening his horizon and making the character more relatable than a simple 'make me angry and i become hulk' one where bruce now has true motivations for a cure and his true desires manifest as an actual motivation for the hulk.

The hulk himself as a character has had very little motivation in this film and didn't particularly do much except for act out bruce's subconcious will in the last. A grey hulk rooting and manifesting his greed based desires would at least provide some proper motivation.

 

[SFII]

look at trends in current trends and future trends in spiderman, batman, iron man, x-men and superman

They all have aspects with darker aspects of someone's character coming out and how the hero deals with that. maybe the grey hulk should represent banner's needs and desires and deal with how someone who has been on the run deals with having the power to do whatever he wants without any consequences.

consider this, with both films, are heroes pretty much end up in the same place, isolated in some remote area somewhat inducing their metamorphasis. Now what the hell does that teach you about anything? it's not like there are any real life lessons being given out or any true moral lessons beating you over the head, no great power great responsibility, no 'i must you my gifts for mankind', no 'I need to be responsible for the mess i've created', no 'i'll beat you in the court room, not on the field' All you get is 'hulk smash'

maybe no one actually wants that.

you don't think Bruce Banner's inner conflict of trying to "tame the beast" is enough for you? i personally enjoy seeing the conflict of him trying to prevent himself from turning into this monster. it's fun seeing him taking preventative methods, and having him hiding from the army, and secretly trying to find a cure. but, i also enjoy it more when he actually does turn into the monster. it's great. it's scary. and it's a fun time!

i guess it just comes down to either you love the Hulk or you don't. and i love him.

 

[Zig-Zag Man]

I agree.
You know what else when you said:"What did THE INCREDIBLE HULK do? Nothing."
do you know why?Because it took no risks at all.Ang Lee love it or leave it,but the man took some chances.In the new Hulk movie they threw everything in there,from the T.V. show to the comics.They themselves were afraid to fail so what did they do they played it safe.
Marvel said just throw a bunch of action scenes but just wait a couple of years and watch it again.It will get old really fast.Just like the box office numbers.I wasn't too crazy about everything in the Ang Lee movie but this movie made me want to watch it again.

I'm glad someone was inspired or could relate and have the voice to speak up on a similar opinion.

I didn't mean it to offend those who like the movie by saying they dumned it down. But as Lupe Fiasco says ... "DUMB IT DOWN" they did purposely dumb it down. For example, look at the "artic scene" as explained thats never been done and ultimately would have been the 1st of its kind and the studio or the director was afraid to alienate people again, so he went for the most simple film possible to make.

Ang Lee had heart and balls to take an adaptation, know what makes the character tick, present it in an interesting / intelligent / and adult like manner and take artistic chances with it. He had a vision. There is no vision for TIH. It's, let's try to please everyone and make it simple, as to not offend anyone. Thats weak to me. And true artists would be offended by something like that. Ang Lee had the heart and the talent to do something with the movie. And like I said, even if it was polarizing, it is memorable. And really if you have your finger on the pulse of what makes the character tick and makes him interesting, Ang Lee's HULK put that up on the screen in an original interesting way. He doesn't try to please everyone with his talents, and have an obscure vision for a picture, that doesn't make you say "ahh, I hated that" or "ahhh, I LOVED that" ... it just drifts in limbo in mediocrity. And nothing is worse than mediocrity. Either be great, or go down in flames trying.

TIH's dilemma ultimately reminds me of Spider-man 3. Both films aren't neccessarily terrible, though if comparing the two Spider-man 3 is the better film, is they are forgettable because they tried to please too many people and the art of the creators lose their vision. For anything to be great it has to have a vision. TIH doesn't do that, it's vision was to sell a product to everyone. Not make a great piece of cinema and art. Either that was the lack of talent from the creators, a lack of understanding from the creators, or it was the studio totally dumbing down and bastardizing what could've been a monumental and powerful restarted vision to the Hulk character on film.

 

[I SEE SPIDEY]

^I kinda agree with your assessment of TIH and Hulk but I disagree with your overall impressions of both films. Although Ang Lee did try something new, his experiment failed. TIH was held back from being anything special but it was a pretty good action flick.

 

[Zig-Zag Man]

^I kinda agree with your assessment of TIH and Hulk but I disagree with your overall impressions of both films. Although Ang Lee did try something new, his experiment failed. TIH was held back from being anything special but it was a pretty good action flick.

See, HULK hit me. It had some themes and interesting concepts that I could really latch onto. And had some pretty good acting to boot, not to mention what IMO was INCREDIBLE Hulk action. The only thing different between the action scenes of HULK and TIH, is LL better knows how to deliver the adrenaline moments of action on screen than Ang Lee. But at the same time, I felt more for the actual characters in the action scenes than I did for TIH.

We can agree to disagree, but time will tell how this film stands up. HULK had people passionately one way or the other. I haven't seen that with TIH, and I doubt it's going to get better with age. I mean, I thought I liked it my first viewing ... and not 5 days later when I saw it again, I thought "what was I thinking."

 

[I SEE SPIDEY]

See, HULK hit me. It had some themes and interesting concepts that I could really latch onto. And had some pretty good acting to boot, not to mention what IMO was INCREDIBLE Hulk action. The only thing different between the action scenes of HULK and TIH, is LL better knows how to deliver the adrenaline moments of action on screen than Ang Lee. But at the same time, I felt more for the actual characters in the action scenes than I did for TIH.

We can agree to disagree, but time will tell how this film stands up. HULK had people passionately one way or the other. I haven't seen that with TIH, and I doubt it's going to get better with age. I mean, I thought I liked it my first viewing ... and not 5 days later when I saw it again, I thought "what was I thinking."

Although some of the themes were interesting, my biggest problem with Ang's movie is that I didn't care about the characters, not even superficially like I did in TIH. The acting was way to zombie, or low key if I could use a nicer term. I know people in real life don't just go shouting their feelings and would probably act closer to Ang's interpitation but I just don't think that works in Superhero movie world very well.

Listen I can relate to having a wackado father but that doesn't mean that I want to see it constantly whinned about in a Superhero movie for 2 and a half hours without any respite what-so-ever. If it had been balanced in anyway I'd have been happier with the film but as is, it came off as some strange therapy session for the director.

We are going to have to agree to disagree because the movie didn't grab me one bit.

 

[Hypestyle]

there should have been less youtube clips leaked by the studio.... bootlegging problems?

the dvd campaign should address all the theatrical editing issues up front-- i don't care what Louis said in his interview with Attack of the Show-- make an extended cut! use everything!

 

[TheComicbookKid]

I think my feeling about the situation can be summed up in this way. TIH is perfoming as well as it should. A good summer action flick.

What happened to the good WOM?

When reading a bunch of comics. I think "man that was a good issue" and I bag it and put it away. After reading a really great comic, I tell my brothers, "Man you have to read this issue!"
I can imagine the general audience reacting more like a good comic. It's not something you talk about at work the next day,if someone ask, other than "I saw that Hulk flick over the weekend.It was good." You're not going to stand around talking about this scene and that scene.

 

[Maresk]

^Exactly. Most people liked the film, but very few actually loved it. It's not a movie you go out of your way to talk about or recommend to people, unlike Iron Man.

 

[Judson Caspian]

Speaking of nothing... when is the Blu-ray release again?