The Incredible Hulk - What went wrong?

[Doc Samson]

I partly agree with you. It is a shame that the very premise of the movie requires the best actor from the screen. But I don't think that hurdle is insurmountable. A couple of ways to fix this:

A. Give Norton more screen time with actors of comparable skill. No disrespect to Tyler, because she actually exceeded my (low) expectations, but it's a shame we had Norton, Roth, and Hurt on the same set, and Norton barely interacted with them. When you have actors of that caliber, find a way to use them.

Still, you can't avoid the fact that Norton will be off-screen for large segments. Because of that, you have to give the Hulk a more dynamic character. He wasn't much more than a blunt instrument in TiH. Sure, they did some characterization, and what they did was good, but he was still too animal to identify with. Make him something we can love...or hate. Or both.

There are two elements of Hulk in the comics I'd like to see on the screen. The first is his hatred of Banner. (And Banner's hatred of him.) Think "Hulk: The End." Banner and Hulk should be two separate characters with distinct and contradictory desires. Banner's conflict becomes stronger this way, because his desire to rid himself of Hulk is opposed by the Hulk himself. It's an internal conflict externalized.

The second element is Hulk as a rogue hero. I don't want to see him as a bad guy. He should be on the right side of things more often than not, but his motivations should be different than Banner's. Banner is a hero. Hulk is something different. That's why he fights the heroes as often as he fights the bad guys. That element (IMO) should be played up more. Hulk as the Alpha creature. Not just Hulk as the persecuted victim.

However he is portrayed, he should be less primal and more complex. Give him desires and motivations beyond just self-preservation and Betty. I think he'd be a more interesting character to the casual viewer that way.

I agree but I'm also unsure of how well the duality between Banner & Hulk would work, because once again that requires a lot of psychology and talk and I'm just not too confident in the audience to sit through that. For whatever reason, Hulk seems to have found a place in cinema where he's unable to have any sort of quiet moments now. The 3 times I seen this, each time between the 1st and 2nd Hulk out I could see people getting antsy, I think they just aren't interested in Banner's motivations as much as we, the fans, are. And its pretty ridiculous when you think about it because the whole Hulk mythology is built on that, but people just aren't going to sit through that at all. Oh well, hopefully we'll be around for the next iteration in 10 or 15 years (I have a feeling he won't be as prominent in the Avengers movie as we all think)

 

[Hmarrs]

Although some of the themes were interesting, my biggest problem with Ang's movie is that I didn't care about the characters, not even superficially like I did in TIH. The acting was way to zombie, or low key if I could use a nicer term. I know people in real life don't just go shouting their feelings and would probably act closer to Ang's interpitation but I just don't think that works in Superhero movie world very well.

Listen I can relate to having a wackado father but that doesn't mean that I want to see it constantly whinned about in a Superhero movie for 2 and a half hours without any respite what-so-ever. If it had been balanced in anyway I'd have been happier with the film but as is, it came off as some strange therapy session for the director.

We are going to have to agree to disagree because the movie didn't grab me one bit.

Point taken.Okay but let's say the Movie had been cut down to about 90 minutes.
because 2and a half hours is a long time for any movie.Unless it has constant development.What I mean is this.Hulk is based on Dr.Jekell Mr.Hyde and Frankinstein.In Dr.Jekell Mr.Hyde the story grabs you because you see his situation develop from being a respected Doctor to being persued by the police in connection with Hyde for murder etc.While trying to hide his identity as Hyde from those who would seek to capture him.Okay now Frankinstein was a creature who did not ask to be born,and was born into a world that did not want him and persecuted him for being different.At first the creature is just a raving Monster built with fear trying to defend himself.As the movie goes on he begins to develop.He meets an old man who treats him kindly and also teaches him to talk.We eventually begin to feel sorry for the misunderstood creature.We see the villigers as villians.We see his story unravall.It keeps you intrigued.Now if you look at both stories you can see the Hulk.In the begining of the Hulk series he was actually written this way.This respected Doctor begins to see his world fall apart around him and the Monster that he tranforms into is persecuted for comming into a world he never asked to come into.All the while both characters are developing the doctor is dealing with his situation as best as possible while the creature develops into his own personna learning to speak and adjust and finding himself all the while being persecuted.Now Dr.Jekell Mr.Hyde has it's focus on Bruce banner while Frankinstein has it's focus on the Hulk.Both of these stories make the Hulk not just one but both combine.you cannot have one without the other.Now after all this you may ask where the heck is this guy going with this?Okay here goes.The first Movie had the focus on the Hulk Frankinstein focus the second Movie had the Dr Jekell Bruce Banner focus but neither had both.If they would have nailed this concept the story would have been well rounded.Just like the comic.we would have been entertained regardless of what form he was Banner or Hulk.this where both movies dropped the ball.

 

[DACrowe]

The movie did below average simply because of apathy. I personally do not think Hulk is that popular of a character with general audiences. I think he is well known and recognized, but he is often more remembered as a silly creation for the TV show from the 1980s that most remember as camp and quaintly cheesy, even if Hulk fans consider it poignant and classic. I think X-Men usurped Hulk in the 1980s as Marvel's #2.

However, this shouldn't necessarily mean bad box office. Who but Marvel fans had even freaking heard of Iron Man until the first teaser or the Superbowl ad this year? That didn't stop it from being a box office giant whose only competition for #1 this year is Dr. Jones' fourth cinematic adventure (yes I think TDK could be best, but it is too dark to make $300 million domestic).

So, why did audiences not care? Simple: There was no incentive to. The last time audiences were majorly hyped for a Hulk movie was 2003. Quite frankly, I take it as a sign that the character was still associated with camp when it made only $60+ million opening weekend (a far cry from Spider-Man's $114 million or even X2's $86 million of the same year. It could just mean all the snickers and laughs about the CGI jolly green giant were taken to heart and I still personally agree the CGI was pretty fake looking in that movie.

Either way once people saw that Lee turned Hulk into an ultra-serious-no-room-for-comic-relief psychological drama that dealt with pain, regression and angst that it could be viewed as Igmar Bergman's take on a superhero....well mainstream audiences that wanted something fun and popcorn-supporting abandoned ship. I have mixed feelings about that moie. I find when Lee was making the movie he wanted to make it was good, but when he tried to appeal to audience and studio demands with action sequences (including the Absorbing Dad showdown and giant poodles), as well as his 'comic' editing, simply made the movie long and difficult to watch for those who do not seek a certain kind of movie; which was most of Hulk's core audience.

Anyway the stigma of that movie surrounded the air when TIH was announced, especially as a 'vague sequel," which it ended up not being. Well no one knew what it was because Marvel was intentionally vague on the matter. Then after it was being made put all their eggs into Iron Man. I understand that decision as it is their first movie, their make-o-break deal in Hollywood and doesn't have the baggage of an old TV show or an unpopular origin film five years ago. But the hype for Iron Man was everywhere.

But that isn't why Iron Man did well necessarily. It was the perfect alignment of factors. It was a) Heavily marketed. b) sold a Depp-in-Pirates unique COMEDIC performance from Downey Jr. that looked cool to anyone who enjoys watching movies. c) It was the first movie of the summer. but very importantly, d) It was above average and downright the best summer movie in the last 3 years thus far.

It was REALLY good. WOM is strong for something that good and wide-appealing. Meanwhile most people didn't even know Hulk 2008 existed until they probably saw the trailer in front of Iron Man. And the trailers, in all honesty, were not that exciting. The CGI while better still doesn't look very real, so it conjures up images of Ang Lee's film. Then it looks like a sequel to that movie and just feels "matter of fact" about the movie. It simply says "Hey there's a Hulk movie coming out in June." Audiences laughed at the CGI and the lackluster marketing left most shrugging.

There was no hype and a lot of build up Marvel seemed to place on Iron Man. Simply put, the buzz around the movie was bad. Norton's in-fighting with Marvel is well known in Hollywood and mainstream media. I wouldn't be surprised if it gets parodied in a future season of Entourage. It just doesn't have that much excitement around it.

The movie is released and fans mostly go t osee it after mixed critical reviews and some action junkies. Well, it's a solid action movie. I liked it and I think many fans loved it. But to the average moviegoer it was simply adequate. It was a solid superhero movie, but didn't raise the bar or push the limits of the genre. It is in the shadow of Iron Man. TIH is an action movie, which Marvel was hellbent as editing as with as much audience-friendly mainstream-induced formula pumped into it. Where they took huge risks in Iron Man, very few were taken in TIH. It is a safe action movie with decent results, but not great. The movie is already suffering from a general mainstream apathy and doesn't pick up wom that is like fire. It is not Iron Man, Spider-Man or most comparably Batman Begins. Batman Begins did about the same as TIH with inflation considered opening weekend 8 years after its disasterous last franchise installment (Batman & Robin). But, Batman Begins was a huge risk and one of the ballsiest superhero movies to date but unlike some (say Tim Burton's Batman Returns and Ang Lee's Hulk), Nolan's risk pay off BIG TIME. It is an above average movie and one of the genre-standards. It is a great movie that is different and differentiates itself within the genre and summer entertainment in general. That is why it had great WOM and very small drop-offs until it crawled its way to a respectable $200+ million. TIH was average and the people who saw it told their friends that.

In the current economy no one wants to go lay down $10 a ticket (without concessions if they want that) for 'just another superhero movie' especially if that movie looks an awful lot alike a "bad superhero movie" from five years ago. They passed and the box office dropped hard. TIH needed a strong marketing campaign to wipe away Lee's Hulk from public consciousness and a very strong film to succeed. Marvel played it safe and got a safe-solid action movie. But compared to Iron Man or other genre standards, especially BB, that isn't enough.

That is why there will not be a sequel unless Avengers is a huge hit and then only maybe.

 

[Judson Caspian]

Speaking of nothing... when is the Blu-ray release again?

 

[Hmarrs]

I have seen been people blaming the Incredible Hulk failure from:

Ang Lee,To Poor advertisment,To Cgi,To all of the compitition around it,To poor release dates,To Edward Norton having a tuss with Marvel,To Ironman,To Batman,To Luis Letteri,To Liv Taylor,To William Hurt,To the 1980 T.V.Show,To Lack of word of mouth.What's next Jimmy Hoffa,El Ninio,Aliens from outer Space?the Ozone layer????Maybe it was just a bad movie period.

Bottom line is this:A good movie will overcome any obstecle and be a sucess.That's what makes it a good movie.From Low budget movie's to Sleeper hits to Independent films it has been done.Bad movies just get buried under the obstecles.

It's time to blame the movie period!!!!!!!!!

 

[TheVileOne]

OK now that's not totally arbitrary.

Let's keep in mind that tons of movies do bad in theatres but years later are recognized as classics or find new life. Look at Blade Runner which is a huge inspiration to filmmakers like Chris Nolan.

 

[Syncos]

In 11 days the movie has turned profit. Doesn't that make it a success?
Sure, it's not a monster hit like Iron Man. But anyone who was expecting it to be, was delusional.

 

[Comicfan]

I have seen been people blaming the Incredible Hulk failure from:

Ang Lee,To Poor advertisment,To Cgi,To all of the compitition around it,To poor release dates,To Edward Norton having a tuss with Marvel,To Ironman,To Batman,To Luis Letteri,To Liv Taylor,To William Hurt,To the 1980 T.V.Show,To Lack of word of mouth.What's next Jimmy Hoffa,El Ninio,Aliens from outer Space?the Ozone layer????Maybe it was just a bad movie period.

Bottom line is this:A good movie will overcome any obstecle and be a sucess.That's what makes it a good movie.From Low budget movie's to Sleeper hits to Independent films it has been done.Bad movies just get buried under the obstecles.

It's time to blame the movie period!!!!!!!!!

I totally agree (except TIH being a bad movie), if TIH were in fact "incredible" none of those factors would have matter at all, WOM would have spreaded like a virus, and it wouldn´t have had a 61% drop on its second week.

TIH is a movie for HULK fans, but it lacks that appealing factor for the GA

the fact that TIH its making similar numbers than HULK, just basically shows that the same people went to see both movies, but for the GA they are just regular movies, and not MUST SEE productions like Indy, kung fu panda or wall-e

 

[Hmarrs]

OK now that's not totally arbitrary.

Let's keep in mind that tons of movies do bad in theatres but years later are recognized as classics or find new life. Look at Blade Runner which is a huge inspiration to filmmakers like Chris Nolan.

Okay then let's wait and see.
I think it will happen for Ang Lee's film long before Louis Leterrier's film.The reason I believe this is.I believe Ang Lee was way before his time.As the years go by people will get tired of useless action with no depth and rediscover Ang Lee's movie.It's already begun.I have seen more people give praise to aAng Lee's film in light of this movie than ever before.Just read some of these post.Their is an enormous turn around.Even I'm beggining to apreciate it more.

But only time will tell.

 

[Hmarrs]

I totally agree (except TIH being a bad movie), if TIH were in fact "incredible" none of those factors would have matter at all, WOM would have spreaded like a virus, and it wouldn´t have had a 61% drop on its second week.

TIH is a movie for HULK fans, but it lacks that appealing factor for the GA

the fact that TIH its making similar numbers than HULK, just basically shows that the same people went to see both movies, but for the GA they are just regular movies, and not MUST SEE productions like Indy, kung fu panda or wall-e

Okay I see your point .But in the end the fault lies in the movie.Not having what it takes to bring it home.So maybe your saying it wasn't bad but then it wasn't good either.The bottom line is the fault lies in the movie.
Because a good movie appeals to all.
Hulk movie made for Hulk fans.
Indy was for Indy fans
Kung Fu Panda,And Wall-E was primerly made for kiddies but it makes it Ga appeal.Why because their good movies.
The Hulk movie could have been made for Hulk fans.If it were good it would have made it's appeal to the GA.

 

[SFII]

Bottom line is this:A good movie will overcome any obstecle and be a sucess.That's what makes it a good movie.From Low budget movie's to Sleeper hits to Independent films it has been done.Bad movies just get buried under the obstecles.

It's time to blame the movie period!!!!!!!!!

BULLS**T.
there's a ton of movies that nobody sees that end up getting nominated for Oscar awards.
hardly anyone saw Juno, but it was a great movie.

 

[Comicfan]

Okay I see your point .But in the end the fault lies in the movie.Not having what it takes to bring it home.So maybe your saying it wasn't bad but then it wasn't good either.The bottom line is the fault lies in the movie.
Because a good movie appeals to all.
Hulk movie made for Hulk fans.
Indy was for Indy fans
Kung Fu Panda,And Wall-E was primerly made for kiddies but it makes it Ga appeal.Why because their good movies.
The Hulk movie could have been made for Hulk fans.If it were good it would have made it's appeal to the GA.

Well.... yeah, thats basically what I said in my post

As a HULK fan I´m planning on going to see all the hulk movies they make, and I tought this one was good (in a way because I´m biased regarding the Hulk character)

I have never cared for the Ironman Character, so... in that franchise I´m GA, and I wans´t planning on going to see that movie on the big screen, I was gonna wait until I was able to get it on DVD, but it had such good WOM that I had to go see it by miself

Soo, I think you are right TIH its simply not such a good movie after all, and the hulk isn´t appealing in anyway to the GA

 

[Hmarrs]

SFII Your Quote:BULLS**T.

There's really no need for that.
You have a right to disagree.But please do it intelligently.
Have you read my post.I mentioned SLEEPER HITS>
A Sleeper Hit is a movie that made it's way to sucess but slowly.Does this movie have what it takes to be sleeper hit only time will tell.

What I am saying is let the movie stand on it's own and let everyone stop making excusses for it.
Fail or succeed the fault ultimately lies on the movie.

But all these excuses are just ridicules.

Alot of people on here sound little league mothers.No offense.

Johnny can't hit the ball because your throwing the ball too hard.
Or your throwing the ball too fast.Or he's not wearing his glasses.
Or he didn't have lunch today Or the bat is just too heavy.Let Johnny hit for himself and see how he does.

If it's a good movie it should be able to overcome any and all obsetcles.
That's what makes a good movie!!!

If it doesn't than Johnny can't hit.

 

[Hmarrs]

Well.... yeah, thats basically what I said in my post

As a HULK fan I´m planning on going to see all the hulk movies they make, and I tought this one was good (in a way because I´m biased regarding the Hulk character)

I have never cared for the Ironman Character, so... in that franchise I´m GA, and I wans´t planning on going to see that movie on the big screen, I was gonna wait until I was able to get it on DVD, but it had such good WOM that I had to go see it by miself

Soo, I think you are right TIH its simply not such a good movie after all, and the hulk isn´t appealing in anyway to the GA

You know it's sad because like you I'm bais to the Hulk because he is my favorite character therefore I feel he deserves the best.
I can't pretend to like somthing that I feel does not do him justice.It is what it is.It's just a fact that needs to be faced.

 

[Spider-X]

anyone here want to claim that Serenity not doing well in the theaters had anything to do with the quality of the movie?

It was marketing. The movie was not to blame...and it is an amazing movie.

Same goes for TIH, except it wasn't marketing that did a poor job...it was the poor timing in comparison to Ang Lee's poorly received movie and a little bit of the marketing.

Sure, TIH is not an unbelieveable movie, but it is still worthy of praise in many respects and really I've never heard anyone outside of these threads put it down...actually, I only hear people who have seen it loving it.

So I truly feel that the movie's quality is not to blame for it's less then wanted box office take thus far. TIH is a very good movie.

 

[Comicfan]

anyone here want to claim that Serenity not doing well in the theaters had anything to do with the quality of the movie?

It was marketing. The movie was not to blame...and it is an amazing movie.

Same goes for TIH, except it wasn't marketing that did a poor job...it was the poor timing in comparison to Ang Lee's poorly received movie and a little bit of the marketing.

Sure, TIH is not an unbelieveable movie, but it is still worthy of praise in many respects and really I've never heard anyone outside of these threads put it down...actually, I only hear people who have seen it loving it.

So I truly feel that the movie's quality is not to blame for it's less then wanted box office take thus far. TIH is a very good movie.

I don´t know... I think Serenity fails under the same problem... its a movie for Firefly fans, it was good, but the GA didnn´t mind about it, for the GA its just a generic sci-fi movie, with unknow characters, again, its just a choice if there isn´t anything better to go watch, it wan´t a "MUST SEE" movie

 

[Syncos]

I don´t know... I think Serenity fails under the same problem... its a movie for Firefly fans, it was good, but the GA didnn´t mind about it, for the GA its just a generic sci-fi movie, with unknow characters, again, its just a choice if there isn´t anything better to go watch, it wan´t a "MUST SEE" movie

I disagree with you. I'd personally never heard of Firefly before watching Serenity. After watching it I absolutely had to go back and watch the series.

As for the TIH, I saw the movie with a large group of general audience types. People who don't know a damned thing about the hulk, a few who hadn't even seen Hulk 03. Every one of them loved it. And the theater was full of people who seemed to give the same reaction.

I've heard nothing but good things about the movie, besides posts from a few select posters on these boards.

 

[Scooter]

Serenity was a much better film than TIH, but it was a relatively small draw. It was under-advertised, and everyone who knew what it was (not many people) saw it.

And, honestly, I think a lot of this "great" word of mouth that's supposedly shadowing this Hulk movie is mostly bogus. All I've heard is, well, not much of anything. Resounding "mehs". It's a mediocre/average movie, and it's underpeforming (so far) for mostly that reason.

 

[Ita-KalEl]

In 11 days the movie has turned profit. Doesn't that make it a success?
Sure, it's not a monster hit like Iron Man. But anyone who was expecting it to be, was delusional.

You have to accept the reality dude.

The average ticket price in 2003 was 6,03$
2008 it's 6,88.

That's a 14% increase

That means that TIH2008 needs to do 132 *1,14= 150,5 to match 2003 for inflation.

 

[Evil Twin]

Juno made over $140 million domestic. A lot of people saw it. Heck, TIH might not match Juno's take. Those numbers are amazing for a low budget, independent movie, without a bankable star.

Still, the larger point stands, box office and quality often aren't related. At all. There are plenty of masterpieces that didn't make anywhere close to what TIH is going to gross. And, let's remember, $150 million, give or take, is still a lot of money and TIH is likely to be in the top 15 to 20 of the year at the end of it.

Personally, I think the true answer about Hulk's box office is "nothing went wrong". The general public just isn't that interested in the Hulk. He's not a $200+ million franchise, but simply a mid-tier $150 million or so one. Projecting from Ang Lee's opening weekend, that version, even if well received, only projected at $150 million to $180 million total domestic. TIH isn't out of line with that level of interest.

Arguably, Hulk is right in line with his comic book popularity. X-Men, Spider-Man, Batman, and Superman support multiple titles and often can be seen at the top of the charts. Daredevil, Ghost Rider, Punisher, V for Vendetta, often are more cult favorites or critical favorites than mass popular. Hulk and Fantastic Four are somewhere in the middle, rarely at the top of the charts over the last 20+ years.

I think the better question is "What went right with Iron Man?" There's a very good chance that Captain America and Thor will do closer to TIH numbers if the answer to that question isn't figured out.

 

[Spider-X]

I don´t know... I think Serenity fails under the same problem... its a movie for Firefly fans, it was good, but the GA didnn´t mind about it, for the GA its just a generic sci-fi movie, with unknow characters, again, its just a choice if there isn´t anything better to go watch, it wan´t a "MUST SEE" movie

I'd never even heard of Firefly going in to see Serenity for the first time...i just thought the trailers looked cool enough, and then i saw the reviews. All the critics seemed to love it so i saw it and it blew my mind.

on the way home from the theater, my wife told me it was based of a cancelled show. When I got home and I bought it on amazon.

So i whole heartedly disagree with you.

 

[SavageBanner]

Did anybody notice this?


http://www.boxofficemojo.com/weekend/chart/

TIH did better than expected this past weekend. It beat Kung Fu Panda! The media pre-maturely reported that KFP was in second before the actual box office totals came in.

 

[Comicfan]

Personally, I think the true answer about Hulk's box office is "nothing went wrong". The general public just isn't that interested in the Hulk. He's not a $200+ million franchise, but simply a mid-tier $150 million or so one. Projecting from Ang Lee's opening weekend, that version, even if well received, only projected at $150 million to $180 million total domestic. TIH isn't out of line with that level of interest.
.

Exactly, that what i have been trying to say here

Hulk (any hulk movie) isn´t that appealing to the GA

 

[Comicfan]

Did anybody notice this?


http://www.boxofficemojo.com/weekend/chart/

TIH did better than expected this past weekend. It beat Kung Fu Panda! The media pre-maturely reported that KFP was in second before the actual box office totals came in.

Yeah, but KFP its on its 3th week and doing good, while TIH had a huge drop on its second week

 

[DragonLord]

Yeah, but KFP its on its 3th week and doing good, while TIH had a huge drop on its second week

But did it with 545 fewer theater showing TIH. Look at the stats. When I went to see the movie a 2nd time, a week later, it was 90% packed.