The Dark Knight Rises The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

[JackWhite]

Daggett was entertaining, I agree, but I still don't know if I'd place him above Talia.

I always wondered what the big ruckus was about his death scene though. I thought Bane was just slowly twisting his head around as one hand was over Daggett's face and the other was resting on his shoulder. Watching The Dark Knight Returns Part 2 reminded me of how that's how it played out with Daggett(how Joker's head was twisted and he finished the job himself).

Oh, I never thought of that. It's just weird because Bane makes this big jerking motion as if he rips Daggett's head clean off. But then instantly we see Stryver's reaction of hearing it happen and Daggett lets out a few moans before going out. It would have been nice had Bane just started to slowly crank his head then cut away, but whatever.

That scene is still scary and a bad ass Bane moment.

 

[Shikamaru]

Indeed, Bane has some great lines as that's a trend with Nolan's trilogy. Ra's al Ghul, The Joker, Bane...all great lines from the three villains.

And back to your examples though....I remember when a "rumor" was made that TDKR would begin right after TDK where Batman rushes his way to the Batcave only to be stopped at a bridge by Bane where then Bane "Breaks the Bat". Remember that one?

I don't remember that. I'm happy it was just a rumor though because it sounds really bad IMO.

Oh, I agree. The League of Shadows is only mentioned by Bane and Talia and that's why I felt they were the LoS and the men were just there to be this 'League of Shadows 2.0' that weren't even using a ninja moniker as seen in Batman Begins(although when Bruce enters the LoS' headquarters in the beginning, we did see the members in the same kind of clothing), but the idea of they just being regular mercenaries and only Bane's men is really interesting and a new way of thinking. Thanks for actually giving me something new to think about with TDKR

I don't remember that scene in TDKR.

As for Bane's mercenaries, those guys being just Bane's mercenaries and having nothing to do with the LoS would've been really really interesting if we got an explanation for why they're so loyal to Bane. The movie keeps telling us that they're very loyal and asks us to question why but we never get an answer. Heck, we never even get any hints.

There's a lot of stuff like that in the movie though - stuff brought up that are barely or never touched on especially with Bane. From what I understand, there is about 1 h and 20 min cut out from the final product and maybe that's where a lot of the unexplained parts of the movie are including those with Bane but we never got a director's cut so we'll never know.

I still don't get that "lackey" vibe. I mean, the one order Talia tries to make and Bane doesn't even listen. Bane was more like a protector and was just being an accomplice at that moment while Talia stabbed Batman but when Talia has to leave, saying their goodbyes, Bane then decides to just kill Batman before the bomb goes off.

Multiple things in the movie gave me and many other people the lackey vibe.
-Talia viewing the battle on the streets of Gotham like a general while Bane was out there fighting.
-The way the movie just tosses Bane aside once Talia is introduced.
-The guy that was there with Batman, Bane, and Talia who usually follows Bane followed Talia right after that.
-Talia giving orders to Bane in the same tone that a general does to a second-in-command.
-The reveal that Talia was the one who got out of that hole and not Bane.

That's just off the top of my head. That and the fact that the way Bane conducts himself after the Talia reveal doesn't seem as professional as before. He just grabs gun, points it to Batman's head and says "You know I have to kill you now, right?" I just couldn't have pictured Bane doing that based on everything else he did in the movie. Plus, up till that point, he seemed to have the same level of honor that he has in the comics. If anything, he would've had respect for Batman because he managed to get out of that hole and beat him. His actions after the Talia reveal seem very low class and seem like something that one of Bane's mercenaries would've done and that adds to the lackey vibe IMO.

As for why he tried to kill Batman even though Talia told him to keep him alive, I really don't know. That's just one of the many things that don't make any sense in the movie and/or one of the things that was cut out from the overall 4 hour-ish product.

Or have them just working side by side. I think the idea that Bane is working under Talia and not just with her is because Talia's doing all of this because of her father, but Bane has just the same right of being a co-conspirator when he has men, when he is doing more than half of the plan while Talia sits back as this mole with being Miranda Tate. While Ra's treated Bane like crap, he does care for Talia and would devise this plan together.

See above. Already addressed most of this in this post. Once again, it never felt like they were working side by side to me and to a lot of people.

And speaking of Bane loving Talia, I know that a lot of people like to joke around about this but....doesn't that make Bane a pedophile? He was a full grown man while Talia was just a little girl when he fell in love for her. The relationship was done once in the comics too but the age gap was nowhere as big.

The leg comes from the ending of TDK as is explained by Nolan and the other injuries mentioned by that doctor...I assumed it was from that year when Bruce was Batman and they just never fully healed, but I still never saw those reasons to keep Bruce from continuing as Batman since nothing stopped him in the previous two films.

I never bought that he got those injuries from that fall in TDK or any other long term injuries for that matter. I'm not gonna deny that a fall like that would've banged him up a little bit and might bruised some ribs or something like that. However, I do not believe for a second that a fall like that injured him to the point that he has permanently damaged shoulders, ribs, elbows, has permanently swollen brain tissue, lacks all the cartilage in his knee, and needs a cane in order to walk for 8 years (this is all according to his doctor btw). I don't buy that for a second especially since we see him getting up and sprinting at the end of TDK.

I never got the bold for TDK. I see the escalation factor of the mob taking their last resort and getting Joker to help them, but when Joker talked about something that could imply more freaks showing up after Dent is shown to have gone to the "dark side" as well, it didn't happen when they saved face with Dent and kept him as this 'White Knight'. That to me showed that Nolan wasn't even going to bring up a "rise of freaks".

And going by Rachel's speech in BB, the organized crime is the main issues and something that gave Bruce the reason to be Batman and taking out that element, while obviously not factual, kept a lot of crime out of Gotham City. When Rachel said guys like Falcone creates guys like Joe Chill, it showed that Nolan's version had the organize crime being the main factor for crimes in Gotham. Taking out Batman's goal of cleaning up Gotham and you have nothing for Batman to do besides wasting the police's time and giving chase, thus Bruce decided to retire for eight years.

The whole theme of the freaks was something taken from The Long Halloween, which Nolan and Goyer have both said was a major influence for BB and TDK. Both BB and TDK have this theme but TDK does to a much greater extent.

Joker said it best in TDK. "All these mobsters want you gone so that things can go back to the way they were before. But I know the truth. There's no going back. You've changed things. Forever." One of the whole themes of TDK was that the mob was going to fall anyways due to Batman and Gotham's criminal underworld would've been replaced by more "freaks" like the Joker AKA other Batman villains. That's also why Bruce quitting to begin with makes no sense. Even though organized crime was gone in TDKR, there should've still been "freaks" running around that only Batman can handle which is why Bruce could never quit being Batman because only Batman can handle them. That was the whole point of TDK's ending. BB's ending implies it too with the Arkham breakout, Crane's descent into insanity, and the Gordon's final line at the end ("Now that you've shown up, people like you are starting to show up too").

Bruce's entire character arc in TDK was that he had to accept that he has to be Batman forever (no pun intended). His original plan was to come home to Gotham, fight crime for a bit, clean up the city and then hook up with Rachel and have the life he always wanted. That's also why he's been searching for a replacement and he finds one in Harvey. However, that's when the "freaks" start showing up with Joker being one of the first. Throughout the movie, the Joker tries to corrupt both Harvey and Batman but only succeeds with Harvey. That's when Batman realizes that he will never be able to quit being Batman because there is a "higher class of criminals" (as Joker puts it) no one but he can handle because he is "more than just a man" (going back to BB) while someone like Harvey was just a man which is why he was corrupted by the Joker - because as long as you're just a man, people can get to you. With the whole "coming of the freaks" theme established, Rachel now being dead, and Harvey's downfall making Bruce realize that there is no one who can replace the Batman, that's when he finally embraces his life as the Batman. He was living with the illusion that he could one day give up the mantle and be with Rachel but that illusion was supposed to be gone by the end of TDK.

That's why it baffles me when some people say that TDK's Batman is "just another vigilante". If anything, TDK perfectly shows what sets Batman apart from any other vigilante/district attorney better than any other Batman adaptation we've had so far. As Gordon said at the end of TDK, "He can take it". Well according to TDKR, he can't take it because he quit right after that night.

As for the symbol of the "White Knight" giving Gotham hope, that doesn't prevent the "freaks" in Gotham because as TDK established, only Batman is capable of protecting Gotham from them. If anything, Gotham needed Batman more than ever after TDK's ending. Plus, Bruce's realization that it is Harvey who needs to be the symbol of hope in the eyes of the people while Batman needs to be whatever Gotham needs him to be only made him more like the true Batman. Bruce in BB said he wanted to strike fear into the hearts of bad people and hope into the hearts of the good people. Problem with that is that you can't have both. Superman strikes hope into good people while Batman strikes fear into the criminals and the corrupt. You can't have a Batman that makes criminals piss their pants when they see him while still having a Batman seen as the shining brave white knight. That's what made Gotham cleaner in TDK than in BB to begin with - hope (Harvey) and fear (Batman) working separately but complimenting each other at the same time. Bruce learns at the end by keeping Harvey's White Knight image alive that Batman needs to be whatever Gotham needs him to be; essentially that if he has to continue fighting guys like the Joker from the shadows with the cops chasing him and the city hating him, so be it. Batman is not there to look good in the spotlight. That is the job of people like Harvey and Superman. Batman is there to get the job done regardless of what people think of him and whether or not they fear him.

Maybe I'm insane and stretching things but this was how I always viewed TDK t:.

Both Nolans and Goyer repeatedly mentioned how they wanted Bruce Wayne to finally leave Gotham and leave the painful memories and yes, saying that, I know that's not Batman at all, but it does give some fine closure to a story arc that did become very polarized from the beginning to Batman not being the "detective" many wanted to see and TDK changing its tone that I'm not blind enough to see does get some "hate".

I'm pretty sure Goyer never said anything. Nolan did but that was only after he began production on TDKR. I don't believe those were his original intentions based on BB and TDK. Maybe Bruce would've still quit in the end but things would've turned out completely different overall.

The thing is that Nolan had a basic plan in his head for the third movie already and it included the Joker. But when Heath died and he didn't want to recast, he had to scrap that story completely and come up with a completely new story - not even a backup story but a completely new story from the ground and up - in a minimum amount of time. I say minimum because I'm assuming WB would've went ahead with Batman 3 anyways if Nolan didn't come back and say he had a well thought out story. They probably gave him a time limit to come back (2 years realistically speaking) and Nolan didn't want to see his franchise continued and concluded without him so he came back even though he hasn't fully thought everything through. In other words, he pulled a Shikamaru (anime fans will get this reference). He outlined his plans too far ahead and when an obstacle came in the way (Ledger's death), he had no backup plan and began to panic. That's just my theory anyways.

In all honesty, BB and TDK are not that big radical departures from the comics other than Ra's al Ghul and the League of Shadows. A lot of the MCU movies technically changed more stuff. Him not being portrayed as the world's greatest detective never bugged me too much in BB and TDK since they were about a rookie Batman in his first year as Batman and it kinda makes sense that he wasn't quite there yet. Even the Batman from Year One and The Long Halloween wasn't quite there yet (and neither are most superheroes in their early career compared to their current status, for that matter). Batman's detective skills in BB and TDK weren't that poor when you compare them to his detective skills in YO and TLH respectively. They were around the same level. If TDKR was going to have an 8-year timeskip, it should've taken advantage of that fact and have a Batman more veteran Batman to the one most people know. You do not have a movie about a worn out retired Batman after two movies that were all about a very early-career Batman.

And The Batman will continue in the form of Robin John Blake. It's all in the imagination of people, but I see Robin training first before he dons a suit.

But you're thinking this without thinking of the many possibilities: Robin training, Robin only using the computer in helping out the GCPD like an Oracle-type route, maybe even training himself and then training the orphans as "followers" of Batman. It's all in the imagination of the viewer.

Seeing as how Gordon is ready to light up the Bat Signal at the end and Blake needs years of training before he becomes a proper Batman which he probably can't afford due to having to take care of an orphanage, I'm going to assume he started his career as Batman not too shortly after the ending. Plus, Bruce should've at least offered him some training or should've kept an eye on him to see if he is doing the job properly but he basically just left him on his own. At least that's the vibe I got.


Also, I'm surprisingly enjoying our discussion. I haven't had so much fun debating about TDKR in months. Thank you, Anno. You've brought the fun of TDKR discussions back in me lol. I wouldn't blame you if you didn't respond to this really long post though.

 

[BatLobster]

@Shikaramu

If I may, I disagree that we never get hints as to why Bane commands such loyalty. I think the idea is that Bane's men (whether some were originally his mercs or not) revere Bane because of his charisma, mystique and the "legend" attached to him. The man who was too extreme for Ra's. You can see the adoration in Barsad's eyes in the prologue when he calls him, "The masked man." Couple that with Bane's line, "No one cared who I was until I put on the mask" and I think the movie is trying to tell us something about the power of masks and how Bane has turned his pain into a symbol of fear/inspiration for the LOS similarly to the way Batman had for Gotham.

I think there's a cult of personality there too, since he has that eloquence and unique manner of speaking about him. He's a guy that stands out, he can get the job done and will put himself on the front lines with his men to do so. He has a lot of admirable qualities about him if you're looking at it from their perspective. He's extremely honorable until the very end when he finally loses his cool and tries to blow Batman's head off.

 

[Shikamaru]

@Shikaramu

If I may, I disagree that we never get hints as to why Bane commands such loyalty. I think the idea is that Bane's men (whether some were originally his mercs or not) revere Bane because of his charisma, mystique and the "legend" attached to him. The man who was too extreme for Ra's. You can see the adoration in Barsad's eyes in the prologue when he calls him, "The masked man." Couple that with Bane's line, "No one cared who I was until I put on the mask" and I think the movie is trying to tell us something about the power of masks and how Bane has turned his pain into a symbol of fear/inspiration for the LOS similarly to the way Batman had for Gotham.

I think there's a cult of personality there too, since he has that eloquence and unique manner of speaking about him. He's a guy that stands out, he can get the job done and will put himself on the front lines with his men to do so. He has a lot of admirable qualities about him if you're looking at it from their perspective. He's extremely honorable until the very end when he finally loses his cool and tries to blow Batman's head off.

That's a really good point but the movie never gives us a clear reason and when you have mercenaries working under you that would die for you so easily, there needs to be a clear explanation as to why. It doesn't have to necessarily be a very reasonable explanation that makes sense to most normal people. It can be something completely messed up that only makes sense to them because they're a cult or because of their fixed beliefs or whatever the reason is.

But regardless of the reason, it needs to be properly addressed and we as the viewers, though we might not agree with the reason to why these guys follow Bane, have to understand why they would follow Bane till death.

It's really hard to talk about which things are actually plot holes that the writers screwed up on and which things were just cut out of the 4-hour film. We know there is at least 1 hour of footage cut out. The more I discuss TDKR, the more and more I realize that it really needed a director's cut. It might have changed a lot of people's opinions on the movie.

 

[JackWhite]

That's a really good point but the movie never gives us a clear reason and when you have mercenaries working under you that would die for you so easily, there needs to be a clear explanation as to why. It doesn't have to necessarily be a very reasonable explanation that makes sense to most normal people. It can be something completely messed up that only makes sense to them because they're a cult or because of their fixed beliefs or whatever the reason is.

But regardless of the reason, it needs to be properly addressed and we as the viewers, though we might not agree with the reason to why these guys follow Bane, have to understand why they would follow Bane till death.

It's really hard to talk about which things are actually plot holes that the writers screwed up on and which things were just cut out of the 4-hour film. We know there is at least 1 hour of footage cut out. The more I discuss TDKR, the more and more I realize that it really needed a director's cut. It might have changed a lot of people's opinions on the movie.

Where did you read that?

 

[Shikamaru]

Where did you read that?

I remember reading an article from a couple of months before TDKR came out where someone in TDKR's production crew said that they finished shooting the film but it was a bit over 4 hours long and that the only thing left now was to trim the movie down to 165 min before releasing it. I've also met a lot of avid TDKR supporters on the net that defended all the confusing things in the movie with that fact.

I know for a fact though that Bane's origin was one of the things that was completely cut out.
http://ca.ign.com/articles/2012/08/07/banes-origin-sequence-cut-from-dark-knight-rises

 

[JackWhite]

I remember reading an article from a couple of months before TDKR came out where someone in TDKR's production crew said that they finished shooting the film but it was a bit over 4 hours long and that the only thing left now was to trim the movie down to 165 min before releasing it. I've also met a lot of avid TDKR supporters on the net that defended all the confusing things in the movie with that fact.

I know for a fact though that Bane's origin was one of the things that was completely cut out.
http://ca.ign.com/articles/2012/08/07/banes-origin-sequence-cut-from-dark-knight-rises

The Bane origin scene is definitely a scene that was left on the cutting room floor. But the whole 4 hour long rough cut was debunked I think a little before the film was released to theaters.

Nolan even stated in TDK trilogy book that he didn't want to make a film significantly longer than BB and TDK. I could see the movie being just a hair over three hours before they edited it down for IMAX purposes.

 

[BatLobster]

That's a really good point but the movie never gives us a clear reason and when you have mercenaries working under you that would die for you so easily, there needs to be a clear explanation as to why. It doesn't have to necessarily be a very reasonable explanation that makes sense to most normal people. It can be something completely messed up that only makes sense to them because they're a cult or because of their fixed beliefs or whatever the reason is.

But regardless of the reason, it needs to be properly addressed and we as the viewers, though we might not agree with the reason to why these guys follow Bane, have to understand why they would follow Bane till death.

It's really hard to talk about which things are actually plot holes that the writers screwed up on and which things were just cut out of the 4-hour film. We know there is at least 1 hour of footage cut out. The more I discuss TDKR, the more and more I realize that it really needed a director's cut. It might have changed a lot of people's opinions on the movie.

But see, that's just the way most TDKR debates tend to go. For me, I felt like even after just seeing the prologue last December that I had a pretty good understanding of what Bane was all about and why he would be someone that other terrorists looked up to.

I don't think it's cut footage that's the problem. A 4 hour TDKR (which was never in the cards as far as I know) would have gotten even more criticism. I can just picture it now:

"We don't need to have everything explained!"

"Nolan spoonfeeds!"

"This movie beats you over the head for 4 hours with every cumbersome little detail!"

Now, 3 hours I think would have been fine to iron out a few pacing issues, but I don't think it's been proven anywhere that a full hour and fifteen minutes of content was cut. But anyway, I think what caused a lot of the differing reactions is that TDKR is just a way more symbolic, metaphorical kind of film and people were expecting a much more literal-minded film especially after TDK. For me, Bane is so easy to understand once you realize that he's meant to be an evil mirror image of Bruce Wayne. With that understanding you're able to apply what you know about Bruce Wayne and view Bane as this twisted version who went through a similar journey (also involving Ra's and the LOS) and ended up becoming someone that might resemble who Bruce would have been if he had executed that prisoner.

Instead of a scene that just verbalizes why Bane's men worship him...we see the look of pure dread on Barsad's face after Bane shoots that guy in the sewers. That look says so much more than even the best written line could've. That look says, "That could be any one of us if we f*** up". We've now established that this guy, presumably Bane's right-hand man, both reveres (from the prologue) and fears him. And that's the most loyal kind of soldier you can ask for.

 

[JackWhite]

But see, that's just the way most TDKR debates tend to go. For me, I felt like even after just seeing the prologue last December that I had a pretty good understanding of what Bane was all about and why he would be someone that other terrorists looked up to.

I don't think it's cut footage that's the problem. A 4 hour TDKR (which was never in the cards as far as I know) would have gotten even more criticism. I can just picture it now:

"We don't need to have everything explained!"

"Nolan spoonfeeds!"

"This movie beats you over the head for 4 hours with every cumbersome little detail!"

Now, 3 hours I think would have been fine to iron out a few pacing issues, but I don't think it's been proven anywhere that a full hour and fifteen minutes of content was cut. But anyway, I think what caused a lot of the differing reactions is that TDKR is just a way more symbolic, metaphorical kind of film and people were expecting a much more literal-minded film especially after TDK. For me, Bane is so easy to understand once you realize that he's meant to be an evil mirror image of Bruce Wayne. With that understanding you're able to apply what you know about Bruce Wayne and view Bane as this twisted version who went through a similar journey (also involving Ra's and the LOS) and ended up becoming someone that might resemble who Bruce would have been if he had executed that prisoner.

Instead of a scene that just verbalizes why Bane's men worship him...we see the look of pure dread on Barsad's face after Bane shoots that guy in the sewers. That look says so much more than even the best written line could've. That look says, "That could be any one of us if we f*** up". We've now established that this guy, presumably Bane's right-hand man, both reveres (from the prologue) and fears him. And that's the most loyal kind of soldier you can ask for.

Good post.

Barsad's look of fear and admiration for Bane was displayed very well, especially in the scene that you mentioned; of Bane shooting the other thug. His expression said it all.

 

[The Joker]

Hell, I'd rank Maroni, Falcone, and Daggett ahead of Talia.

So would I actually. I even found the Chechen more entertaining. "My dogs are hongrehhh!!!!", "They won't work for a freeeeeak!!!!"

 

[Brother Jack]

With Bane I think Nolan and co. improved upon the character in the comics. The version in Rises is absolutely the best in my mind, especially in aesthetics. It would be much harder to make such a claim with the Joker.

 

[Anno_Domini]

Oh, I never thought of that. It's just weird because Bane makes this big jerking motion as if he rips Daggett's head clean off. But then instantly we see Stryver's reaction of hearing it happen and Daggett lets out a few moans before going out. It would have been nice had Bane just started to slowly crank his head then cut away, but whatever.

That scene is still scary and a bad ass Bane moment.

Indeed it's a very scary scene and shows the characterization of Bane as that's the second time so far in the film that he uses his hands to kill someone, and not even having to resort to a weapon. Bane was just beastly in TDKR.

But, I agree...we should've heard him slowly churning Daggett's neck, but maybe that would've been too much for a PG-13 film, lol. But looking at how he broke Pavel's neck, it just seemed that he broke Daggett's neck differently when both of his hands wasn't on his head as they were with Pavel, hence my idea of him using only one hand to twist Daggett's neck.

I don't remember that. I'm happy it was just a rumor though because it sounds really bad IMO.

It was around the time of the prologue being released, but yah, it did sound bad...that's why I loved what we got in the film, lol.

What would have been your idea on how to have Bane break Batman though?

I don't remember that scene in TDKR.

I was speaking on Batman Begins which is why the parenthesis are close to Batman Begins, lol.

As for Bane's mercenaries, those guys being just Bane's mercenaries and having nothing to do with the LoS would've been really really interesting if we got an explanation for why they're so loyal to Bane. The movie keeps telling us that they're very loyal and asks us to question why but we never get an answer. Heck, we never even get any hints.

You never get an answer on why the LoS are so loyal to Ra's either in BB, but you have to just go with it while watching the film(besides "Ducard"'s fake line on how Ra's saved him).

But, thinking back on TDKR, Alfred did mention the coup that Bane underwent in Africa(I believe it was Africa), so perhaps they are just regular mercenaries and Bane and Talia keep the League of Shadows name around because of their relation to the LoS.

There's a lot of stuff like that in the movie though - stuff brought up that are barely or never touched on especially with Bane. From what I understand, there is about 1 h and 20 min cut out from the final product and maybe that's where a lot of the unexplained parts of the movie are including those with Bane but we never got a director's cut so we'll never know.

Where did you get that from?

Multiple things in the movie gave me and many other people the lackey vibe.
-Talia viewing the battle on the streets of Gotham like a general while Bane was out there fighting.

And Bane called out on the Tumblers to fire like a General would and went straight after the main guy(Batman) like a General would.

Talia watching was just the plan to be there as Bane wanted her to keep close as said by Bane after he saw the burning Bat symbol.

-The way the movie just tosses Bane aside once Talia is introduced.

I don't think any mention of Bane had to be made at all EXCEPT I would have liked to see the police haul Bane's dead body out of City Hall. Besides that, though, the bigger thing to take care of was the bomb and a mention of Bane didn't seem necessary. Plus, seeing Batman showing up would have given Talia the idea something happened to Bane as it would seem wasteful for Talia to bring up something about him during her last breaths.

-The guy that was there with Batman, Bane, and Talia who usually follows Bane followed Talia right after that.

Escorting her into the Tumbler, that's all. How is that really a big deal though?

-Talia giving orders to Bane in the same tone that a general does to a second-in-command.

One order that Bane doesn't listen to. Usually when a General gives an order to someone "lower", they take the order and listen.

-The reveal that Talia was the one who got out of that hole and not Bane.

That doesn't mean Talia is the sole leader.

That's just off the top of my head. That and the fact that the way Bane conducts himself after the Talia reveal doesn't seem as professional as before. He just grabs gun, points it to Batman's head and says "You know I have to kill you now, right?" I just couldn't have pictured Bane doing that based on everything else he did in the movie. Plus, up till that point, he seemed to have the same level of honor that he has in the comics. If anything, he would've had respect for Batman because he managed to get out of that hole and beat him. His actions after the Talia reveal seem very low class and seem like something that one of Bane's mercenaries would've done and that adds to the lackey vibe IMO.

Batman beating Bane by breaking his mask and telling him that he climbed, something Bane never did made it feel, to me, that he just grabbed a shotgun to kill Batman quickly as he became jealous that Batman is the better man. Again, doesn't make Bane seem like a "lackey"; just showed his fear that even was noticed when he saw the burning Bat logo: "Impossible."

As for why he tried to kill Batman even though Talia told him to keep him alive, I really don't know. That's just one of the many things that don't make any sense in the movie and/or one of the things that was cut out from the overall 4 hour-ish product.

I know: Bane wasn't a lackey, lol.

See above. Already addressed most of this in this post. Once again, it never felt like they were working side by side to me and to a lot of people.

I rarely get a "lot of people" idea except for only a few that states it on the TDKR boards.

And speaking of Bane loving Talia, I know that a lot of people like to joke around about this but....doesn't that make Bane a pedophile? He was a full grown man while Talia was just a little girl when he fell in love for her. The relationship was done once in the comics too but the age gap was nowhere as big.

Platonic love.

I never bought that he got those injuries from that fall in TDK or any other long term injuries for that matter. I'm not gonna deny that a fall like that would've banged him up a little bit and might bruised some ribs or something like that. However, I do not believe for a second that a fall like that injured him to the point that he has permanently damaged shoulders, ribs, elbows, has permanently swollen brain tissue, lacks all the cartilage in his knee, and needs a cane in order to walk for 8 years (this is all according to his doctor btw). I don't buy that for a second especially since we see him getting up and sprinting at the end of TDK.

Sprinting? We see him limping at the end of TDK. Even the script of TDK, I believe, states Batman limping to his Bat-pod.

And the injuries were for that entire year, not just the events of TDK.

The whole theme of the freaks was something taken from The Long Halloween, which Nolan and Goyer have both said was a major influence for BB and TDK. Both BB and TDK have this theme but TDK does to a much greater extent.

Joker said it best in TDK. "All these mobsters want you gone so that things can go back to the way they were before. But I know the truth. There's no going back. You've changed things. Forever." One of the whole themes of TDK was that the mob was going to fall anyways due to Batman and Gotham's criminal underworld would've been replaced by more "freaks" like the Joker AKA other Batman villains. That's also why Bruce quitting to begin with makes no sense. Even though organized crime was gone in TDKR, there should've still been "freaks" running around that only Batman can handle which is why Bruce could never quit being Batman because only Batman can handle them. That was the whole point of TDK's ending. BB's ending implies it too with the Arkham breakout, Crane's descent into insanity, and the Gordon's final line at the end ("Now that you've shown up, people like you are starting to show up too").

Bruce's entire character arc in TDK was that he had to accept that he has to be Batman forever (no pun intended). His original plan was to come home to Gotham, fight crime for a bit, clean up the city and then hook up with Rachel and have the life he always wanted. That's also why he's been searching for a replacement and he finds one in Harvey. However, that's when the "freaks" start showing up with Joker being one of the first. Throughout the movie, the Joker tries to corrupt both Harvey and Batman but only succeeds with Harvey. That's when Batman realizes that he will never be able to quit being Batman because there is a "higher class of criminals" (as Joker puts it) no one but he can handle because he is "more than just a man" (going back to BB) while someone like Harvey was just a man which is why he was corrupted by the Joker - because as long as you're just a man, people can get to you. With the whole "coming of the freaks" theme established, Rachel now being dead, and Harvey's downfall making Bruce realize that there is no one who can replace the Batman, that's when he finally embraces his life as the Batman. He was living with the illusion that he could one day give up the mantle and be with Rachel but that illusion was supposed to be gone by the end of TDK.

That's why it baffles me when some people say that TDK's Batman is "just another vigilante". If anything, TDK perfectly shows what sets Batman apart from any other vigilante/district attorney better than any other Batman adaptation we've had so far. As Gordon said at the end of TDK, "He can take it". Well according to TDKR, he can't take it because he quit right after that night.

As for the symbol of the "White Knight" giving Gotham hope, that doesn't prevent the "freaks" in Gotham because as TDK established, only Batman is capable of protecting Gotham from them. If anything, Gotham needed Batman more than ever after TDK's ending. Plus, Bruce's realization that it is Harvey who needs to be the symbol of hope in the eyes of the people while Batman needs to be whatever Gotham needs him to be only made him more like the true Batman. Bruce in BB said he wanted to strike fear into the hearts of bad people and hope into the hearts of the good people. Problem with that is that you can't have both. Superman strikes hope into good people while Batman strikes fear into the criminals and the corrupt. You can't have a Batman that makes criminals piss their pants when they see him while still having a Batman seen as the shining brave white knight. That's what made Gotham cleaner in TDK than in BB to begin with - hope (Harvey) and fear (Batman) working separately but complimenting each other at the same time. Bruce learns at the end by keeping Harvey's White Knight image alive that Batman needs to be whatever Gotham needs him to be; essentially that if he has to continue fighting guys like the Joker from the shadows with the cops chasing him and the city hating him, so be it. Batman is not there to look good in the spotlight. That is the job of people like Harvey and Superman. Batman is there to get the job done regardless of what people think of him and whether or not they fear him.

Maybe I'm insane and stretching things but this was how I always viewed TDK t:.

I respect your views, but I would have to disagree as I view it in an entirely different way. Just because The Long Halloween inspired BB and TDK doesn't mean the Nolans and Goyer were going to bring the idea of the "rise of freaks", but once again, I respect your views and can see why you didn't like TDKR. As for me, who views it differently, it's why I really love TDKR. And the film is polarizing because of that very moment, imo. Many view it the way you do, many view it the way I do. But I am sure you are aware of that.

But, I would like to say...Batman can take it, but why would he when Batman's crusade came to an end with Bruce's main objective being taken care of because of the top guys being dead(Maroni, Gambol, Chechen, even Lau) and the other guys are in jail for a year or so(as stated in TDK by Dent) which gives enough time for the Dent Act to be initiated and keep the criminals behind bars?

I'm pretty sure Goyer never said anything. Nolan did but that was only after he began production on TDKR. I don't believe those were his original intentions based on BB and TDK. Maybe Bruce would've still quit in the end but things would've turned out completely different overall.

When TDKR was worked on immediately after TDK, then it positively means Nolan wanted to give Bruce Wayne an ending.

The thing is that Nolan had a basic plan in his head for the third movie already and it included the Joker. But when Heath died and he didn't want to recast, he had to scrap that story completely and come up with a completely new story - not even a backup story but a completely new story from the ground and up - in a minimum amount of time. I say minimum because I'm assuming WB would've went ahead with Batman 3 anyways if Nolan didn't come back and say he had a well thought out story. They probably gave him a time limit to come back (2 years realistically speaking) and Nolan didn't want to see his franchise continued and concluded without him so he came back even though he hasn't fully thought everything through. In other words, he pulled a Shikamaru (anime fans will get this reference). He outlined his plans too far ahead and when an obstacle came in the way (Ledger's death), he had no backup plan and began to panic. That's just my theory anyways.

Again,

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/life/movies/news/2008-12-07-dark-knight-nolan_N.htm?csp=34

Posted 12/7/2008 9:05 PM
Updated 12/8/2008 9:41 PM

Nolan says he is jotting notes and doing some rough outlines for a third story, but he hasn't yet found anything he's willing to commit to film, despite Warner Bros.' eagerness to get a new film underway.

In all honesty, BB and TDK are not that big radical departures from the comics other than Ra's al Ghul and the League of Shadows. A lot of the MCU movies technically changed more stuff. Him not being portrayed as the world's greatest detective never bugged me too much in BB and TDK since they were about a rookie Batman in his first year as Batman and it kinda makes sense that he wasn't quite there yet. Even the Batman from Year One and The Long Halloween wasn't quite there yet (and neither are most superheroes in their early career compared to their current status, for that matter). Batman's detective skills in BB and TDK weren't that poor when you compare them to his detective skills in YO and TLH respectively. They were around the same level. If TDKR was going to have an 8-year timeskip, it should've taken advantage of that fact and have a Batman more veteran Batman to the one most people know. You do not have a movie about a worn out retired Batman after two movies that were all about a very early-career Batman.

Still doesn't hide the fact that TDK does have its share of hate. I could even bring up a few posters on here that have stated their dislike of the film. Batman Begins is really the only film of Nolan's trilogy that I rarely hear anything "bad" about lately, but I'm sure that film has some "hate" as well.

Seeing as how Gordon is ready to light up the Bat Signal at the end and Blake needs years of training before he becomes a proper Batman which he probably can't afford due to having to take care of an orphanage, I'm going to assume he started his career as Batman not too shortly after the ending. Plus, Bruce should've at least offered him some training or should've kept an eye on him to see if he is doing the job properly but he basically just left him on his own. At least that's the vibe I got.

Nothing shows Gordon is ready to light up anything just because he's touching on the rebuilt symbol in daytime.

Also, I'm surprisingly enjoying our discussion. I haven't had so much fun debating about TDKR in months. Thank you, Anno. You've brought the fun of TDKR discussions back in me lol. I wouldn't blame you if you didn't respond to this really long post though.

I am enjoying it as well, and you're not becoming *****ey down the line as some have become as of late(and I can name names!).

So would I actually. I even found the Chechen more entertaining. "My dogs are hongrehhh!!!!", "They won't work for a freeeeeak!!!!"

Can we say he's a better villain just because he's more entertaining talking about his dogs and what not? Lol.

With Bane I think Nolan and co. improved upon the character in the comics. The version in Rises is absolutely the best in my mind, especially in aesthetics. It would be much harder to make such a claim with the Joker.

Oh, I agree. I LOVE how they wrote Bane for TDKR with Bane having a tactical mind, being shown as a master of disguise, being a brute, but as an intelligent one, even using a comparison of the young Talia to be Bane's Osito. Just brilliant, imo.

 

[BatLobster]

Yeah, great point HappyJack. The Bane we got in Rises is overall a richer and more fully realized characterization than any given comic featuring Bane. The beauty of it all is how it incorporated something from pretty much all of Bane's comic storylines (and there aren't that many), put them in a blender and came out with something that felt like the definitive Bane. And yes, aesthetically he was a step up too.

I really am still hoping that TDKR's Bane ends up influencing the comics. The thing about Bane though is he does work as an "endgame" villain really well (or in comics terms an "event" villain). You can't just whip him out in any old story, that's how he ends up looking like a one-note goon. I'd love to see a good writer attempt to tell a more complex Bane story though, and I'd really be interested to to see Bane's relationship with Ra's and Talia further explored in the comics.

 

[Anno_Domini]

I don't think the Venom aspect will be reduced to just something to inhale though, but Bane could use a more TDKR-inspired attire and could have some more relation to the LoS because of TDKR as well.

One thing I wish TDKR had was having Bane dream of this bat haunting his dreams.

 

[BatLobster]

Yeah, I wouldn't expect them to change the venom tubes, but a more militaristic sort of attire would be pretty cool. I think Bane's threat level should go up too. I mean he was basically worthy of being a Superman or Justice League level villain in TDKR because he really had the world by the balls. I'd like to see him utilized as more of an international threat in larger scale stories.

 

[Snow Queen]

I think that Bane in TDKR is something that the comics can draw from like how Harley was ported over to the comics from BTAS. The design was better (imo) and the character was fleshed out further. I definitely want to see something similar in the comics at some point. Maybe in Detective Comics. The writer there is top notch and him writing a story where Bane meticulously takes over Gotham's underworld using a terrorist organization he's put together mostly composed of men from the island that's name escapes me at the moment and some men he picked up while training to be the best after the inevitable power vacuum coming after his Penguin arc and then destroying Bruce's life before finally going for the finishing blow would be a great story.

And making his New 52 Osito an actual character he protected (similar to Talia) would be a great choice, in my opinion.

 

[BatLobster]

I think that Bane in TDKR is something that the comics can draw from like how Harley was ported over to the comics from BTAS. The design was better (imo) and the character was fleshed out further. I definitely want to see something similar in the comics at some point. Maybe in Detective Comics. The writer there is top notch and him writing a story where Bane meticulously takes over Gotham's underworld using a terrorist organization he's put together mostly composed of men from the island that's name escapes me at the moment and some men he picked up while training to be the best after the inevitable power vacuum coming after his Penguin arc and then destroying Bruce's life before finally going for the finishing blow would be a great story.

And making his New 52 Osito an actual character he protected (similar to Talia) would be a great choice, in my opinion.

Love those ideas. Is it known whether Knightfall/the back breaking has been retconned out of existence by the new 52 or not?

 

[Snow Queen]

Love those ideas. Is it known whether Knightfall/the back breaking has been retconned out of existence by the new 52 or not?

I don't know. Bane showed up in Dark Knight but I don't pick that up. Apparently the issue sucked though. But they had the back break on the cover...but it was just an homage. They may have mentioned it in the story though, I dunno. Whether or not they did, here are my two ideas:

With Knightfall: After being beaten, Bane traveled the world to train and hone his strength without venom (as was done in the comics at a time). As his travels drew to a close, he recruited men from around the world to aid him in his efforts as he returned to Gotham to conquer the underworld, tear down the Wayne legacy and finally break the Bat once and for all.

Without Knightfall: The only origin change would be making Osito a young girl that was born in the prison years later. Bane watches over her and uses her as a scout, decoy and bait when necessary. Bane traveled the world and honed his body to become the ultimate killing machine. But, eventually, he became addicted to Venom, which allowed him to increase his physical abilities to levels he could never dream of with just training. However, it was extremely addictive and he finds it hard to go without it for too long without a withdrawal. Venom this time is injected using syringes every 24 hours rather than tubes that give Batman an easy target to defeat him. Once he arrives in Gotham to destroy the Batman, he takes control of the shambles of Cobblepot's crime ring before taking out the competition. Batman catches word of a mob boss uniting the underworld and spends countless hours searching for him. Bane uses the underworld to overwhelm Batman and test his limits, to study him and discover his identity. Once uncovering his identity tracing the technology of a gadget stolen from his belt during a fight to a Wayne Enterprises patent, Bane destroys Bruce's social life, drains his bank accounts and loses his remaining money in the stock exchange, uses rival corporate tycoon Max Powers to buy out Wayne Enterprises and their buildings, tears down the Wayne Memorial Hospital and "uncovers" his father's corporate espionage tactics. With Bruce Wayne destroyed and Batman exhausted, Bane infiltrates Wayne Manor and breaks Batman in the Batcave. With Batman defeated, Bane makes short work of his allies and begins ruling the city through fear as they operate an underground resistance to stop him as Bruce recovers.

Kind of a mashup of Knightfall, TDKR and some original ideas. Personally, mixing Knightfall with TDKR and some of the writer's original ideas could make the ultimate Bane story.

 

[BatLobster]

Love it man. Both options are great. If you use Knightfall as backstory, you'd have a great "rematch" kind of vibe where Bane wants to reclaim Gotham, but Batman still has to see if he has what it takes to beat Bane, since he didn't get the opportunity to in Knightfall.

If you start fresh, then like you said you can basically do a better version of Knightfall and have the ultimate Bane story.

Very cool ideas Gotham's Knight

I wonder how many DC writers read the Hype boards

 

[The Joker]

With Bane I think Nolan and co. improved upon the character in the comics.

I wouldn't say that. Visually he definitely made Bane look better than the comics. Character wise, definitely not. Bane in the comics is a self made man who survived Pena Duro prison since he was a child. Who educated himself, trained himself, escaped that hell hole, went to Gotham and established himself. Studied Batman and figured out his identity for himself. Wore him down himself by freeing the Arkham inmates instead of tackling an 8 year out of date Batman with a death wish, broke him in his own Batcave, then took over Gotham. Bane in the comics has a tactical mind, and is capable of everything TDKR Bane did and more.

Nolan's Bane was the protector of little Talia in a pit. He never escaped the pit, he was handed the LOS along with it's all it's resources and knowledge thanks to Talia, including Batman's identity. He was just doing the work of another villain for that villain's daughter and he was willing to die for her.

He's not half the villain comic book Bane is. He would be nothing without Talia and the LOS. Completely reliant on them for his survival and status. There was nothing extraordinary about him other than his strength. Can't even credit him with the intelligence because we don't know how much of the plan was Talia's and how much was his. Personally I think given how it was personal for Talia honoring her father by finishing his work and getting revenge on the guy who killed him, I'm more inclined to think Talia was the real brains behind it.

Can we say he's a better villain just because he's more entertaining talking about his dogs and what not? Lol.

Definitely. Would you say Arnie's Mr. Freeze is a better villain than Murphy's Scarecrow even though Arnie was his own boss and froze the city, while Murphy's Crane was just an LOS lackey who was kept in the dark about their real plans?

 

[BatLobster]

Bane's story was just more interesting and complex in the movie. He's never been portrayed as much more than just a guy who wants to prove how tough and dominant he is in the comics. In TDKR that element is there, but you have this selfless quality to him that gives him more dimension and humanity (the way he protects and cares for Talia). Bane in the comics is more ego-centric and cliched as a villain. He's not that much different than Kraven the Hunter in Spider-Man when it comes to motivation.

And yeah, he relied on the LOS...but where would Bruce be without the LOS and Ra's training in this story? Probably still rotting in a Bhutanese prison, if not dead. And unlike Bruce, he doesn't come from money and doesn't have billions of dollars and a corporation at his disposal, so sure, he needs an army for the scale of war that he and Talia are bringing to Gotham. But that army could not have been led by Talia alone, especially when she's spending years as a mole in W.E. Bane was absolutely crucial for leading the day to day operations, Talia's most important role was securing the fusion reactor.

 

[Anno_Domini]

Definitely. Would you say Arnie's Mr. Freeze is a better villain than Murphy's Scarecrow even though Arnie was his own boss and froze the city, while Murphy's Crane was just an LOS lackey who was kept in the dark about their real plans?

No, I would not. Mr. Freeze was terrible in B&R. But that kinda goes in line with the new Chechen or Talia debate. Like Mr. Freeze, Chechen was entertaining, but that's all they have over characters like Scarecrow and Talia, lol.

The major mob bosses like Falcone and Maroni are definitely better than Talia. Other ones like Chechen, Gambol or I'll even include Lau...don't think I'd place them above Talia.

 

[Anno_Domini]

Bane's story was just more interesting and complex in the movie. He's never been portrayed as much more than just a guy who wants to prove how tough and dominant he is in the comics. In TDKR that element is there, but you have this selfless quality to him that gives him more dimension and humanity (the way he protects and cares for Talia). Bane in the comics is more ego-centric and cliched as a villain. He's not that much different than Kraven the Hunter in Spider-Man when it comes to motivation.

And yeah, he relied on the LOS...but where would Bruce be without the LOS and Ra's training in this story? Probably still rotting in a Bhutanese prison, if not dead. And unlike Bruce, he doesn't come from money and doesn't have billions of dollars and a corporation at his disposal, so sure, he needs an army for the scale of war that he and Talia are bringing to Gotham. But that army could not have been led by Talia alone, especially when she's spending years as a mole in W.E. Bane was absolutely crucial for leading the day to day operations, Talia's most important role was securing the fusion reactor.

I think the idea of Bane and Talia being a dark mirrored image of Bruce and Rachel was fascinating and really made the move from Rachel to another woman, who ended up being Selina in the end, be much more affected as Bruce had to deal with the evil versions of himself and Rachel. So, I would always say Bane in TDKR indeed became a whole lot better than in the comics. He became much more complex than just this character that wanted to make a name for himself.

 

[The Joker]

Bane's story was just more interesting and complex in the movie.

In what way? His story was watered down to being a protector who was handed everything. He didn't escape the pit. He didn't figure out Batman's identity. His plan was just an extension of another villain's.

In what world is that more complex and interesting?

He's never been portrayed as much more than just a guy who wants to prove how tough and dominant he is in the comics.

Whereas fulfilling the work of another villain who kicked you out of his gang is so much more complex lol.

Bane in the comics spent his life making something of himself while serving a life sentence for his father's crimes. After all of those years of education and training it was natural he would want to prove his worth.

In TDKR that element is there, but you have this selfless quality to him that gives him more dimension and humanity (the way he protects and cares for Talia). Bane in the comics is more ego-centric and cliched as a villain. He's not that much different than Kraven the Hunter in Spider-Man when it comes to motivation.

Bane in the comics has plenty of humanity. And a warped sense of honor, too. How can you compare him to Kraven? Kraven was a game hunter. He chose Spidey as his next prey. He wasn't trying to prove his worth bagging Spidey. He just saw Spidey as a challenge he had not bested yet.

And yeah, he relied on the LOS...but where would Bruce be without the LOS and Ra's training in this story? Probably still rotting in a Bhutanese prison, if not dead.

The difference is Bruce went around the world seeking to study criminals and fight injustice. It's no different to the experts who trained him in the comics. Bane got EVERYTHING from the LOS thanks to Talia.

And unlike Bruce, he doesn't come from money and doesn't have billions of dollars and a corporation at his disposal, so yeah, he basically needs an army for the scale of war that he and Talia are bringing to Gotham.

Yeah it's not like he wouldn't be able to steal millions and finance his own operations like Joker did in TDK or....GASP.....make something of himself like comic book Bane did

 

[BatLobster]

No, I would not. Mr. Freeze was terrible in B&R. But that kinda goes in line with the new Chechen or Talia debate. Like Mr. Freeze, Chechen was entertaining, but that's all they have over characters like Scarecrow and Talia, lol.

The major mob bosses like Falcone and Maroni are definitely better than Talia. Other ones like Chechen, Gambol or I'll even include Lau...don't think I'd place them above Talia.

That's a perfect example of why it's useless to compare the "accomplishments" of villains. Edward Nygma in Batman Forever managed to get everyone in Gotham to buy his product and feed him all their deepest secrets, deducing Batman's identity in the process.

Does that mean I think he's a better villain than Bane in TDKR, even if I did think of him as a "lackey" (I don't)? HECK NO! There's so much more that goes into a great villain than just what the writers have tee'd up for them to accomplish. It's about the little moments. It's about the terror that's conveyed by him gently lying his hand on a man's shoulder. It's about the feeling you get when you're watching them on screen.

Whereas fulfilling the work of another villain who kicked you out of his gang is so much more complex lol.

I know it may seem ridiculous to you, but to me, yes it is inherently more complex. I just felt seeing Bane depicted as the outcast to Bruce's "favored son" was rich storytelling. If you think of Ra's as a father figure to both of them, it's fascinating that Bruce would reject the father, Bane would be rejected BY the father...and then be on a mission to prove his superiority to both of them. It's just very literary, archetypal stuff that I find emotionally engrossing and interesting.

Bane in the comics has plenty of humanity. And a warped sense of honor, too. How can you compare him to Kraven? Kraven was a game hunter. He chose Spidey as his next prey. He wasn't trying to prove his worth bagging Spidey. He just saw Spidey as a challenge he had not bested yet.

It's not an exact comparison, but I feel the similarity is there. Kraven wants to hunt Spidey to prove he's the best game hunter in the world. Bane storms into Gotham with the intent to break the Batman and show that he's the big boss in town. Mind you, neither of those are bad characterizations, they work. I just think in a movie, it's nice to get something beyond that.

The difference is Bruce went around the world seeking to study criminals and fight injustice. It's no different to the experts who trained him in the comics. Bane got EVERYTHING from the LOS thanks to Talia.

Yeah, but Bane had to have done time on his own as a mercenary. Clearly his appearance in TDKR wasn't his first rodeo. And he might've escaped the pit if he hadn't been so devoted to protecting Talia, and she certainly wouldn't have made it out if he hadn't protected her. So in a way, the entire story is put into motion due to a simple act of kindness from Bane. "A hero can be anyone". I think that definitely trumps Osito, if you're looking to compare the way the humanity of Bane is portrayed.

Yeah it's not like he wouldn't be able to steal millions and finance his own operations like Joker did in TDK or....GASP.....make something of himself like comic book Bane did

Stealing millions wouldn't be enough to buy them a nuke