The Dark Knight Rises The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

[Shikamaru]

In terms of Bolland's aristry, The Killing Joke is unrivaled. The argument is interesting, but, I never cared for how he treated Barbara (another example of Moore's comic misogyny.)

Based on what?

Well, we're talking here about a Batman movie that would suck because of the bad action and a Batman movie that would suck because of the bad action. The action in every case is bad for different reasons but it's bad in both cases. They're both unacceptable.

Action is very important, regardless of some other goodies. I think Batman Begins is good, like 3.5/5, but it's not great in my book precisely because the action is lousy, the dialogue is many times poor and the Scarecrow is poorly developed.

I disagree with BB having bad action. In order for it to have bad action, we need to be able to see the action. Which we didn't. That's my point. There is no action for us to see to judge as good or bad.

I don't think so.

I'm sorry, you missed the part when I said "Batman movie," did you?

Movies are just another medium much like comics are.

 

[Snow Queen]

Based on what?

I believe it's an opinion based on the violence towards women in some of his books (two examples that come to mind are Barbara's paralysis in TKJ and the whole Silk Spectre thing in Watchmen). I never found it misogynistic myself.

 

[Shikamaru]

I believe it's an opinion based on the violence towards women in some of his books (two examples that come to mind are Barbara's paralysis in TKJ and the whole Silk Spectre thing in Watchmen). I never found it misogynistic myself.

I'm talking about The Killing Joke specifically. What is so misogynistic about Barbara's paralysis in the book?

 

[Anno_Domini]

Problem with Bane was the twist. After we find out he's not the brain behind the scheme he turns into a puppie-eyed lamb and lost all gravitas. It was such a shame.

Will always disagree with this. If one sees it as once the Talia reveal is made Bane isn't shown to be the brains, then you still have Bane being the brawn as he destroyed Batman before the siege even begins. Plus, Bane is the voice of the siege as well. Enough to proof that Bane had much gravitas from beginning to end even with the Talia reveal, imo.

Must disagree. you couldn't see a thing. And that's bad for a Batman movie, not being able to see Batman.

There was a point in that, though. The fight scenes in Batman Begins was meant to be faster than in TDK and TDKR since the theme of the film was about fear....the viewer was meant to feel as how the thugs felt when fighting this new creature of the night.

 

[Shikamaru]

There was a point in that, though. The fight scenes in Batman Begins was meant to be faster than in TDK and TDKR since the theme of the film was about fear....the viewer was meant to feel as how the thugs felt when fighting this new creature of the night.

Well said .

 

[Snow Queen]

I'm talking about The Killing Joke specifically. What is so misogynistic about Barbara's paralysis in the book?

I don't see it as misogynistic myself but I think it's from the perception some have that he harms women too much in his books, which includes Barbara's paralysis. Not necessarily that it's the only thing.

But I still think it's absolute garbage, especially considering what happened to Gordon in TKJ.

 

[Senator Pleasury]

I disagree with BB having bad action. In order for it to have bad action, we need to be able to see the action. Which we didn't. That's my point. There is no action for us to see to judge as good or bad.

Oh there is. you can't see the choreography , but you see enough to see there are people fighting, and thus action taking place. Only that you barely can follow it, but it's there. Badly, choppy and poorly edited.

Movies are just another medium much like comics are.

My point exactly.

What was yours?

Will always disagree with this. If one sees it as once the Talia reveal is made Bane isn't shown to be the brains, then you still have Bane being the brawn as he destroyed Batman before the siege even begins. Plus, Bane is the voice of the siege as well. Enough to proof that Bane had much gravitas from beginning to end even with the Talia reveal, imo.

No. After the reveal he barely was the same thing. Not the leader for once but even less a menacing figure the way it was before. He afterwards behaved like a puppy in love with his master. And not loved back the same way. Pathetic. Because we don't get (there's no time and Marion Cotillard is unable to develop the right charisma and gravitas) how or why would Bane love this woman. It was just thrown there the last minute to get a bigger effect.

There was a point in that, though. The fight scenes in Batman Begins was meant to be faster than in TDK and TDKR since the theme of the film was about fear....the viewer was meant to feel as how the thugs felt when fighting this new creature of the night.

And it was great during Batman's first apparition. Then we already 'get' the criminal's POV. Mission accomplished. Now, we're ready to see what the movie had been promising for 60+ minutes. Just we don't get to see it.

 

[Anno_Domini]

Well said .

I try, lol.

No. After the reveal he barely was the same thing. Not the leader for once but even less a menacing figure the way it was before. He afterwards behaved like a puppy in love with his master. And not loved back the same way. Pathetic. Because we don't get (there's no time and Marion Cotillard is unable to develop the right charisma and gravitas) how or why would Bane love this woman. It was just thrown there the last minute to get a bigger effect.

Is there proof Talia wanted Bane to beat down Batman? Is there proof Talia wanted Bane to break into Blackgate Prison and free the inmates? Is there proof Talia wanted Bane to hold a kangaroo court? Is there proof Talia wanted Bane to create some kind of 99% vs 1% war as a facade?

Talia's reveal doesn't make Bane seem any less when there's nothing to prove what exactly Talia had Bane do during the events of TDKR except for her wanting to destroy Gotham.

And it was great during Batman's first apparition. Then we already 'get' the criminal's POV. Mission accomplished. Now, we're ready to see what the movie had been promising for 60+ minutes. Just we don't get to see it.

What did the movie promise us that we didn't get?

 

[Senator Pleasury]

Is there proof Talia wanted Bane to beat down Batman? Is there proof Talia wanted Bane to break into Blackgate Prison and free the inmates? Is there proof Talia wanted Bane to hold a kangaroo court? Is there proof Talia wanted Bane to create some kind of 99% vs 1% war as a facade?

Talia's reveal doesn't make Bane seem any less when there's nothing to prove what exactly Talia had Bane do during the events of TDKR except for her wanting to destroy Gotham.

It's not that the character of Bane didn't work, or didn't do plenty. It's that, after being such a great character, suddenly he changes into what he always is and has been (according to the movie). That, retroactively, makes the character far less interesting than if he had been the supreme leader of this terrorist organization.

And his behavior, for god's sake. He is a tame little lamb next to the charisma-less Talia.

What did the movie promise us that we didn't get?

Batman in action. First 60 minutes of the film are not only about why, but a lot of how. All that training (that is everything), the preparation of the suit, the gadgets. Those are promises for the rest of the movie. And you barely get to actually see it.

 

[JackWhite]

Eh, I felt BB gave us a great chunk of Batman in action:

1) First night out at the docks.
2) Saving Rachel at the subway.
3) First conversation with Gordon while in the suit.
4) First time ever seeing Batman shake someone down for info on film.
5) First encounter with Scarecrow in the apartment.
6) Batman actually fighting inside Arkham Asylum.
7) Batman's AA escape using bats.
8) Tumbler chase.
9) Final battle against the LOS ninjas and then his showdown with Ra's on the train.

That's just off of the top of my head.

 

[Anno_Domini]

It's not that the character of Bane didn't work, or didn't do plenty. It's that, after being such a great character, suddenly he changes into what he always is and has been (according to the movie). That, retroactively, makes the character far less interesting than if he had been the supreme leader of this terrorist organization.

And his behavior, for god's sake. He is a tame little lamb next to the charisma-less Talia.

He was shown as a protector in flashbacks and then he was mentioned as a protector in the end...he doesn't turn into a protector all of a sudden, and that doesn't take away what Bane had done earlier in the film.

Batman in action. First 60 minutes of the film are not only about why, but a lot of how. All that training (that is everything), the preparation of the suit, the gadgets. Those are promises for the rest of the movie. And you barely get to actually see it.

Batman was in plenty of action where you see him in all his glory. JackWhite summed it up:

Eh, I felt BB gave us a great chunk of Batman in action:

1) First night out at the docks.
2) Saving Rachel at the subway.
3) First conversation with Gordon while in the suit.
4) First time ever seeing Batman shake someone down for info on film.
5) First encounter with Scarecrow in the apartment.
6) Batman actually fighting inside Arkham Asylum.
7) Batman's AA escape using bats.
8) Tumbler chase.
9) Final battle against the LOS ninjas and then his showdown with Ra's on the train.

That's just off of the top of my head.

 

[BatmanBeyond]

In a Batman movie, Batman must be seen in action. If you're not able to do that then it's not a good Batman movie.

You're disregarding the fact that a large part of Batman's shtick is lurking in the shadows and being unseen. BB's camera work is choppy, but I like what they were going for.

Eh, I felt BB gave us a great chunk of Batman in action:

1) First night out at the docks.
2) Saving Rachel at the subway.
3) First conversation with Gordon while in the suit.
4) First time ever seeing Batman shake someone down for info on film.
5) First encounter with Scarecrow in the apartment.
6) Batman actually fighting inside Arkham Asylum.
7) Batman's AA escape using bats.
8) Tumbler chase.
9) Final battle against the LOS ninjas and then his showdown with Ra's on the train.

That's just off of the top of my head.

 

[Anno_Domini]

If anything, the camera work in BB should have stayed in TDK/TDKR, imo.

 

[JackWhite]

If anything, the camera work in BB should have stayed in TDK/TDKR, imo.

I think someone here mentioned them keeping the choppy camera work for when Batman takes out random thugs.

I actually would have loved something like when Batman jumps down and takes out the crowd of thugs during the docks scenes; but for when he saves Blake. Except right before he finishes the last two thugs you start to see more of him appear in the frame.

Batman fighting in the tunnels was a nice throwback to that BB style of shooting the fight scenes, I just wish it were a little longer.

 

[Anno_Domini]

Someone also mentioned once that they cut that choppy look because it had a negative effect on some people, but I don't think I believe it, but it could be why that tunnels scene in TDKR is so short when they wanted to have that choppy look. Who knows.

But, yes, with thugs in TDK/TDKR, the camera work in BB would have been great to see, imo.

 

[Senator Pleasury]

He was shown as a protector in flashbacks and then he was mentioned as a protector in the end...he doesn't turn into a protector all of a sudden, and that doesn't take away what Bane had done earlier in the film.

Narrative-wise, it does take from him. He was not the top leader. Acting-wise, he behaved completely different when Talia was there. Obedient, submissive, taking everything Bane was before that.

Batman was in plenty of action where you see him in all his glory. JackWhite summed it up:

I saw choppy editing in all its glory, not Batman.

You're disregarding the fact that a large part of Batman's shtick is lurking in the shadows and being unseen. BB's camera work is choppy, but I like what they were going for.

No, I don't I have mentioned how wonderfully the docks scene worked stating that point. After that it made no new point, it just prevented us from seeing Batman in action.

If anything, the camera work in BB should have stayed in TDK/TDKR, imo.

So you don't want to be able to see Batman clearly in all his glory during the whole trilogy.

 

[Anno_Domini]

Narrative-wise, it does take from him. He was not the top leader. Acting-wise, he behaved completely different when Talia was there. Obedient, submissive, taking everything Bane was before that.

Obedient and submissive? Bane didn't seem either of those. Talia gives one "command" that Bane doesn't obey, so he wasn't obedient, and he didn't submit either in that obey.

I saw choppy editing in all its glory, not Batman.

I saw plenty of Batman even with the choppy camerawork.

So you don't want to be able to see Batman clearly in all his glory during the whole trilogy.

I could see enough since I saw enough in BB, so I'd be okay in that area.

 

[Senator Pleasury]

Obedient and submissive? Bane didn't seem either of those. Talia gives one "command" that Bane doesn't obey, so he wasn't obedient, and he didn't submit either in that obey.

Sure, when she was not there.

I saw plenty of Batman even with the choppy camerawork.



I could see enough since I saw enough in BB, so I'd be okay in that area.

Thanks to the frame-by-frame button, I could too. But the problem was so evident, Nolan visibly changed his way to film action.

 

[doobie]

People said that Nolans fight direction improved in TDK but I thought you could also see it as a plot point. He was forced to come out of the shadows and fight in the open a lot more by escalation, hence him being seen more clearly and not the scary choppy shots, which I personally liked in BB. Then when he went back to using shadows, IE his fights in the first third of Rises, Nolan had found interesting new ways to show it.

 

[Senator Pleasury]

People said that Nolans fight direction improved in TDK but I thought you could also see it as a plot point. He was forced to come out of the shadows and fight in the open a lot more by escalation, hence him being seen more clearly and not the scary choppy shots, which I personally liked in BB. Then when he went back to using shadows, IE his fights in the first third of Rises, Nolan had found interesting new ways to show it.

Thing is choppy fights are supposed to be "the way criminals see Batman." Nevertheless the same editing style is used when Bruce Wayne fights the inmates at the beginning of BB, when he is not Batman yet. And when he fights Ra's on the monorail, and we know Ra's is not the average criminal that sees Batman the same way others do. It was just a bad way to do it.

 

[doobie]

I thought Bane was supposed to be weakened at that point, he had been beaten by Batman, so was a defeated man.

Like how people complain how lame Scarecrow was in TDK, but to me that was powerful, because it showed how even a villain as strong as him was suffering under Batman's new rule. It wasn't dissing him but showing Batman's power over Gotham at that point, the same as Bruce being broken showed Bane's current power.

I always thought there was a subtext of rebellion and power struggle between Bane and Talia - I had a personal theory that he only grudgingly kept Bruce alive and broken on her orders, and given his own choice he would have just had him shot as soon as he saw him.

 

[doobie]

Thing is choppy fights are supposed to be "the way criminals see Batman." Nevertheless the same editing style is used when Bruce Wayne fights the inmates at the beginning of BB, when he is not Batman yet. And when he fights Ra's on the monorail, and we know Ra's is not the average criminal that sees Batman the same way others do. It was just a bad way to do it.

good point, maybe it's not about the fear of Batman but just showing how it feels to fight Batman.

I watched Rises this morning and to be honest I wished for the choppy editing in some parts to hide the strange parts of some of the fights, such as henchmen standing waiting to be hit on the rooftop.

 

[Senator Pleasury]

I thought Bane was supposed to be weakened at that point, he had been beaten by Batman, so was a defeated man.

A man that's been beaten doesn't have to act defeated necessarily. But Bane changed completely once Talia appears. And Talia certainly treated him as a puppet, manipulating him because she knows he is love with her. A love we can't see where it did come from. Because when you have a powerful character such as Bane (strong not only physically), it's necessary to know what could ever subjugate him.

Like how people complain how lame Scarecrow was in TDK, but to me that was powerful, because it showed how even a villain as strong as him was suffering under Batman's new rule. It wasn't dissing him but showing Batman's power over Gotham at that point, the same as Bruce being broken showed Bane's current power.

Scarecrow in TDK made the most sense in the trilogy. The problem is that he was barely shown as "powerful." Before TDK, last time we saw him he was easily defeated by Batman first and definitely defeated by a girl with a tazer.

I always thought there was a subtext of rebellion and power struggle between Bane and Talia - I had a personal theory that he only grudgingly kept Bruce alive and broken on her orders, and given his own choice he would have just had him shot as soon as he saw him.

I would have LOVED to see that relationship developed. But apparently Nolan was too in love with his twist to do it.

I watched Rises this morning and to be honest I wished for the choppy editing in some parts to hide the strange parts of some of the fights, such as henchmen standing waiting to be hit on the rooftop.

I noticed that too. But rather than the choppy editing, I'd have preferred a well executed scene.

 

[doobie]

Scarecrow in TDK made the most sense in the trilogy. The problem is that he was barely shown as "powerful." Before TDK, last time we saw him he was easily defeated by Batman first and definitely defeated by a girl with a tazer.

.

I know, but the people offended by his scene in TDK were all going on about how awesome they thought he was in BB, so I thought if they saw him that way it doesn't mean they should see him as dissed in TDK, just broken by defeat like Bruce was in Rises. Setting the scene that Batman was on top then.

(and to be fair, Batman only defeated him on second try and by the time he was tazed he had lost his mind.)

 

[Senator Pleasury]

I know, but the people offended by his scene in TDK were all going on about how awesome they thought he was in BB, so I thought if they saw him that way it doesn't mean they should see him as dissed in TDK, just broken by defeat like Bruce was in Rises. Setting the scene that Batman was on top then.

You are right about it.M I don't get how people could get offended by that scene in TDK and not the one with Rachel in BB.