The Dark Knight Rises The Journey's Conclusion: The Fate of Gotham, the Wayne Legacy & Batman Symbol Thread

[Nevincer]

I think it's high time this thread got bumped back. Please all share your thoughts on the conclusion now the film has been released, I'll give mine tommorow after my screening.

 

[gingerhulk]

Gotham will take some money to get it back to what it was.

 

[Nevincer]

No one wants to talk about it?

 

[The Caped Knight]

I loved the marble statue of Batman that the city unveiled in Gotham City hall.

 

[TheIrishAvenger]

Oh wow! I kinda called this.

For the final scenes I envision a Batman memorial at the centre of Gotham with Gordon giving a speech similar to his one for Dent.

Just got the center of Gotham thing wrong.

 

[The Guard]

Ironically, I think I was the one who asked if this thread was neccessary a few weeks ago. Now I feel like this discussion definitely deserves its own thread. Out of all the issues I have with THE DARK KNIGHT RISES, these two bothers me the most.

The handling of The Wayne Legacy and the fate of Gotham City and its citizens in relation to organized crime.

I want to talk about the film's resolution of The Wayne Legacy: It feels like the film included flashbacks and call backs to every important character and story point except this one, which is arguably the most important one of them all.

In BATMAN BEGINS, we're both told and shown that Bruce's parents inspired the city to save itself. It becomes basically Bruce's mission to show the people of Gotham that their city doesn't belong to the criminals and the corrupt, and to continue his parents work.

In THE DARK KNIGHT, Bruce himself says that he wanted to inspire Gotham. He sees that his work as Batman may only make things worse, and he moves a little further in the direction of legally helping Gotham by supporting Harvey Dent.

In THE DARK KNIGHT RISES, Bruce

Spoiler

inspires Blake to take over Batman's mission, but I don't really think Bruce can really be said to have inspired Gotham to stand up for itself, or to have inspired Gotham's wealthy to help save the city, or to help its less fortunate, or even to have inspired the cops to fight against Bane's army.

I found this to be a huge oversight on the part of the filmmakers.

The film shows Bruce basically

Spoiler

"dying" penniless, because apparently every cent of his money was in stocks (the people in this franchise are really, really stupid with their money. First the mob puts all their money in one location, and now this?) despite Lucious Fox's earlier claims in the film that longterm, they should be able to prove fraud. Seeing as how Bane's plot was stopped, one would assume this would be the case. So why, other than melodrama, does Bruce Wayne end up with nothing but the manor? Where does that leave Wayne Enterprises?

Because it would have been really nice to see the Wayne resources put toward rebuilding Gotham, which was somewhat destroyed in the events of the film, and in working toward a brighter future. The Wayne Foundation and a charitable approach is an obvious choice for this...the Wayne Orphanage, while thematically relevant, certainly a wonderful gesture on Bruce's part, and a difference maker...it just doesn't feel like enough to crystallize the themes that have been developed for two films and much of the third.

The film easily could have had Bruce recognize the need to help continue the fight against crime on multiple levels, not just as Batman, or by inspiring Batman.

-His money could have served to rebuild the city and to inspire others to do the same.
-He could have created/recharged The Wayne Foundation for a broader purpose
-He could have set up or funded a series of orphanages and programs for at risk youth, in order to prevent new criminals.
-He still could have inspired Blake, and gave him the means to potentialy carry on his crusade.
-He could have inspired others by revealing his identity, or at least by continuing his parents' work.

This would have given Bruce a three pronged attack to help Gotham and to prevent crime in the future, plus Blake carrying on as Batman, plus Gotham's wealthy/elite being inspired.

Miranda could have folded into this arc as well by briefly exploring the themes of carrying on our parents legacies...which would make her arc and connection to Ra's that much richer.

Why is this not in the film? Why wasn't this deemed important enough to explore after more or less being set up in the first two films?

Why are the specifics of a clean energy device turning into a bomb, when the concept of clean energy is never explored, what the film spends its time showing us and exploring?

At the end of the day, it's just a bomb. It would have been just as easy to have Bane and the League of Shadows bring a nuke into the city, or steal the fusion device from Wayne, but not make the fusion device the focus of Wayne Enterprises' endeavors.

But do we see Alfred, Miranda or anyone else prod Bruce to help Gotham? Nope. We see Blake mention Bruce stopped funding the orphanage, but there's never a moment where Bruce puts it all together and makes a decision to step up and honor his family's legacy.

That, and there was no visit to the Waynes grave by Bruce, which would have made a visit from Alfred to their grave that much more powerful. Come to think of it, Alfred's feelings about The Wayne Legacy are never really explored. In the first two films, that aspect is present, but its not really there in the third film. I could even see Alfred talking about how Bruce's parents met at the cafe in Italy, and that being somewhat "full circle" at the end, VS just a blatant set up for the ending to be broadcast.

With all the parallells and callbacks in this film, I was horriby disappointed by the lack of resolution of this arc.

 

[kvz5]

Ironically, I think I was the one who asked if this thread was neccessary a few weeks ago. Now I feel like this discussion definitely deserves its own thread. Out of all the issues I have with THE DARK KNIGHT RISES, these two bothers me the most.

The handling of The Wayne Legacy and the fate of Gotham City and its citizens in relation to organized crime.

I want to talk about the film's resolution of The Wayne Legacy: It feels like the film included flashbacks and call backs to every important character and story point except this one, which is arguably the most important one of them all.

In BATMAN BEGINS, we're both told and shown that Bruce's parents inspired the city to save itself. It becomes basically Bruce's mission to show the people of Gotham that their city doesn't belong to the criminals and the corrupt, and to continue his parents work.

In THE DARK KNIGHT, Bruce himself says that he wanted to inspire Gotham. He sees that his work as Batman may only make things worse, and he moves a little further in the direction of legally helping Gotham by supporting Harvey Dent.

In THE DARK KNIGHT RISES, Bruce

Spoiler

inspires Blake to take over Batman's mission, but I don't really think Bruce can really be said to have inspired Gotham to stand up for itself, or to have inspired Gotham's wealthy to help save the city, or to help its less fortunate, or even to have inspired the cops to fight against Bane's army.

I found this to be a huge oversight on the part of the filmmakers.

The film shows Bruce basically

Spoiler

"dying" penniless, because apparently every cent of his money was in stocks (the people in this franchise are really, really stupid with their money. First the mob puts all their money in one location, and now this?) despite Lucious Fox's earlier claims in the film that longterm, they should be able to prove fraud. Seeing as how Bane's plot was stopped, one would assume this would be the case. So why, other than melodrama, does Bruce Wayne end up with nothing but the manor? Where does that leave Wayne Enterprises?

Because it would have been really nice to see the Wayne resources put toward rebuilding Gotham, which was somewhat destroyed in the events of the film, and in working toward a brighter future. The Wayne Foundation and a charitable approach is an obvious choice for this...the Wayne Orphanage, while thematically relevant, certainly a wonderful gesture on Bruce's part, and a difference maker...it just doesn't feel like enough to crystallize the themes that have been developed for two films and much of the third.

The film easily could have had Bruce recognize the need to help continue the fight against crime on multiple levels, not just as Batman, or by inspiring Batman.

-His money could have served to rebuild the city and to inspire others to do the same.
-He could have created/recharged The Wayne Foundation for a broader purpose
-He could have set up or funded a series of orphanages and programs for at risk youth, in order to prevent new criminals.
-He still could have inspired Blake, and gave him the means to potentialy carry on his crusade.
-He could have inspired others by revealing his identity, or at least by continuing his parents' work.

This would have given Bruce a three pronged attack to help Gotham and to prevent crime in the future, plus Blake carrying on as Batman, plus Gotham's wealthy/elite being inspired.

Miranda could have folded into this arc as well by briefly exploring the themes of carrying on our parents legacies...which would make her arc and connection to Ra's that much richer.

Why is this not in the film? Why wasn't this deemed important enough to explore after more or less being set up in the first two films?

Why are the specifics of a clean energy device turning into a bomb, when the concept of clean energy is never explored, what the film spends its time showing us and exploring?

At the end of the day, it's just a bomb. It would have been just as easy to have Bane and the League of Shadows bring a nuke into the city, or steal the fusion device from Wayne, but not make the fusion device the focus of Wayne Enterprises' endeavors.

But do we see Alfred, Miranda or anyone else prod Bruce to help Gotham? Nope. We see Blake mention Bruce stopped funding the orphanage, but there's never a moment where Bruce puts it all together and makes a decision to step up and honor his family's legacy.

That, and there was no visit to the Waynes grave by Bruce, which would have made a visit from Alfred to their grave that much more powerful. Come to think of it, Alfred's feelings about The Wayne Legacy are never really explored. In the first two films, that aspect is present, but its not really there in the third film. I could even see Alfred talking about how Bruce's parents met at the cafe in Italy, and that being somewhat "full circle" at the end, VS just a blatant set up for the ending to be broadcast.

With all the parallells and callbacks in this film, I was horriby disappointed by the lack of resolution of this arc.

They definitely dropped the ball on the Wayne Legacy arc. It's frustrating to see that the trilogy ended with Gotham remembering Bruce Wayne (the last member of the Wayne family) as some crazy billionaire who died bankrupt.

 

[karatemanchan37]

They definitely dropped the ball on the Wayne Legacy arc. It's frustrating to see that the trilogy ended with Gotham remembering Bruce Wayne (the last member of the Wayne family) as some crazy billionaire who died bankrupt.

I thought about this to and I refer back to you with this quote from BB;

I'm going to show the people of Gotham that the city doesn't belong to the criminals and the corrupt. People need dramatic examples to shake them out of apathy. I can't do this as Bruce Wayne. A man is just flesh and blood and can be ignored or destroyed. But as a symbol... as a symbol, I can be incorruptible, everlasting.

So the Wayne Legacy arc was very wrapped up by TDKR IMO: The Wayne Manor was already rebuilt and it has served another purpose (the orphans), the company has remained standing under Fox's guidance, and even the bloodline of Wayne lives on as Bruce and Selina live another life together.

With the whole arc about saving Gotham, Nolan and co. were trying to hammer in the fact that Bruce Wayne cannot save Gotham, only Batman can. In BB we see Bruce being enamored with the idea of dramatic example, but by TDK we already see him trying to shed back the idea of Batman - that was one of the reasons why Dent's fall was so important, because the legitimate ray of hope that shined for Gotham was also the one that shined on Batman's future. With Dent gone, so was Bruce's ability to leave Batman behind.

 

[The Guard]

With the whole arc about saving Gotham, Nolan and co. were trying to hammer in the fact that Bruce Wayne cannot save Gotham, only Batman can.

I feel like that's unrealistic, and entirely the wrong message to send about the concept of Batman and Wayne's charitable efforts.

 

[Nevincer]

I feel like that's unrealistic, and entirely the wrong message to send about the concept of Batman and Wayne's charitable efforts.

What the heck happened with this movie...

 

[The Caped Knight]

Ra's al Ghul: A vigilante is just a man lost in the scramble for his own gratification. He can be destroyed, or locked up. But if you make yourself more than just a man, if you devote yourself to an ideal, and if they can't stop you, then you become something else entirely.
Bruce Wayne: Which is?
Ra's al Ghul: A legend, Mr. Wayne A legend.

IMO that's exactly what Batman became to Gotham at the conclusion of TDKR.

 

[The Guard]

Unfortunately, Bruce Wayne did not. He apparently up and vanished like a fart in the wind.

 

[kvz5]

Just thought I'd bump this since the Wayne Legacy was something that IMO was an important part of the Batman movies as well. The bolded part was a deleted scene that I think was an attempt to explain Bruce working on leaving something for Gotham (the clean energy project most likely?). It was cut though and barely touched besides his conversation with Tate and Fox. And well, the project failed too.

ALFRED
Yes, this city needs Bruce Wayne.
Your resources, your
knowledge...not your body. Not your
life. That time has passed.

WAYNE
I tried helping as Bruce Wayne,
Alfred. And I failed.

ALFRED
You can fail as Bruce Wayne. As
Batman, you can’t afford to.

WAYNE
That’s what you’re afraid of - that
if I go back out there I’ll fail.

ALFRED
No. I’m afraid that you want to.

It makes me wonder though if they could've made a way so that in the end the clean energy project could still be used for Gotham (since Pavel was dead anyway) and that was Bruce Wayne's gift to Gotham before he died. That way, something was still left to continue the great memory of the Waynes (besides that manor orphanage thing) and it would address the Wayne Legacy. But of course that will ruin the drama of the bomb going off and Batman/Bruce dying.

 

[BlackFox]

Unfortunately, Bruce Wayne did not. He apparently up and vanished like a fart in the wind.

Yeah a 6 megatone nuclear fart.

Bruce is not Tony Stark, he wasn't looking for recognition for what he was doing, he's not some egomaniac looking for flowers thrown at his feet and to be on the front cover of magazines and papers. He wants to disappear to lead a quiet, normal life, he WANTED to vanish.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

Yeah a 6 megatone nuclear fart.

Bruce is not Tony Stark, he wasn't looking for recognition for what he was doing, he's not some egomaniac looking for flowers thrown at his feet and to be on the front cover of magazines and papers. He wants to disappear to lead a quiet, normal life, he WANTED to vanish.

But that wasn't Bruce Wayne. That was Batman.

Alfred in Batman Begins- "It's not just your name, sir. It's your father's name, and it's all that's left of him".

By the end of Begins, Bruce had shown that he no longer thought of Wayne Manor as a mausoleum and once again his home. That his family's name still mattered.

He instead chose to die as an insane, eccentric, hermit, who squandered his fortune and nearly doomed the city.

 

[The Shape]

I'm having trouble seeing what the real problem is here.

As we saw from Batman Begins onward, Bruce did care about his parents legacy but it was obviously more of an internal struggle to live us to their name. Outwardly, he didn't care about tarnishing his parent's name if it meant saving the lives of others. The 'drunken billionare burns down mansion' scene and the scene with Alfred that follows is an example of this in Batman Begins.

Otherwise, in this series and sometimes in the comics, Bruce uses his 'Bruce Wayne' persona to mask the fact that he is Batman. This is something that started in BB and continued in TDK. Still, with Wayne Enterprises, he was accomplishing good things and participating in various charities (including but not limited to funding the orphanage for a long period of time). Just because we didn't see them doesn't mean it wasn't a part of Wayne Enterprise's business ventures. Also, in TDK, the fundraiser for Harvey is an example of Bruce using his wealth and power towards a legitimate cause he believed in. Before the events of TDKR, the clean energy project was an extremely noble cause and idea. Upon realizing there was someone out there with the knowledge to turn it into a weapon, he put it on hold to prevent it from ever falling into the wrong hands (a very 'Batman' thing to do)...and he was clearly right to do so.

The Bruce Wayne at the start of TDKR is a man that has lost sight of his purpose in life. As Blake says, he stopped paying attention to the 'details' that he used to most likely obsess over. That obviously changes. The tarnishing of the Wayne legacy comes from outsiders like Dagget and Bane, who strip him of everything he's worth. It's not because of anything that Bruce has done directly to dishonor his parents. And despite that, we can assume that Lucius Fox did everything in his power (after Bruce's 'death') to legitimize his name (which includes proving fraud on the whole stock market thing), continue on with rebuilding Wayne Enterprises. Once again, just because we don't see it...doesn't mean it won't happen.

Furthermore, Bruce Wayne's legacy is synonymous with the legacy of the Batman. His parents would have been extremely proud of the man that their son had become. They'd be proud of his strong will and motivation, as well as the hardships he had overcome and all of the good that he had done. Following the events of TDK, the Batman had been redeemed in the eyes of the people of Gotham. They now know who their true hero is. They know what he had done for them and all that he had sacrificed. They have something to believe in. Most importantly, the symbol of the Batman lives on. What a legacy indeed.

 

[The Shape]

Not to mention he DID rebuild his father's mansion brick by brick, and Wayne Manor remains to place of good, both on the surface and underneath...

 

[Brother Jack]

He instead chose to die as an insane, eccentric, hermit, who squandered his fortune and nearly doomed the city.

Except that he donated his mansion to use as an orphanage. And he was back in the spotlight trying to fix the situation with the fusion reactor and WE before it was over.

 

[BlackFox]

But that wasn't Bruce Wayne. That was Batman.

Alfred in Batman Begins- "It's not just your name, sir. It's your father's name, and it's all that's left of him".

By the end of Begins, Bruce had shown that he no longer thought of Wayne Manor as a mausoleum and once again his home. That his family's name still mattered.

He instead chose to die as an insane, eccentric, hermit, who squandered his fortune and nearly doomed the city.

He did it as Batman yes.

His family name was preserved and the home used to help the Orphans of Gotham, thats a pretty good way to give something to Gotham wouldn't you say, not exactly destroyed the Wayne name.

Yep thats what he wanted everyone to think, eccentric, mad, dead and gone, so he can lead a normal life with his woman in peace and quite, no mad masked men to torment him or his family.