The Libertarian Thread

lol@ this whole thread.

The dude was like I voted for Ron Paul but how will he win if people dont know him?

So why did you vote for him? lol. Why vote for the least gaurnteed winner? lol@ anything else....
 
That and I think the general lack of interest in Ron Paul is a trickle down effect....no one in DC thinks he has a chance....that makes its way to the press corps...and then out to the media....what media outlet is going to expend time,money, and resources to someone who clearly has no chance??...The reporter that has to cover Ron Paul is the guy who shows up last in the office in the morning
 
He's not an isolationist. He's saying that we shouldn't have military bases in over 100 countries all around the world. He's saying that trade, travel, and diplomacy is the basis of our relationships with other countries, and if there is an armed conflict, we should declare war before be invade sovereign nations.

I'm of the opinion that if George Bush could make it into office, Ron Paul would do 1,000 times better than he could.
Unfortunately, the rest of the world expects help from America's military might. If Ron Paul thinks terrorists or any of our enemies will simply "back off" because we remove our military bases from these countries, he's wrong, he's simply dead wrong.
 
And the average person now has access to the internet 24/7. People know who Ron Paul is. People know what he stands for. They just didn't vote for him. You guys are playing up this "ignorance of the masses due to the media" card way too much as an excuse for Paul losing. The fact is, his message just didn't click with middle America.

The breakdown of face time on average with in the entire debate process is as follows.

Speaking Times:

McCain: 27.6%
Romney: 27.0%
Giuliani: 20.4%
Huckabee: 17.3%
Paul: 7.6%


The subsequent media follow up coverage is even more slanted when you factor in talk radio, newspapers, and mainstream media on the internet. The method of directing the public’s attention and swaying votes is very easy to do. You focus on who you want to focus on and ignore the others.
The less coverage a candidate gets the more thoroughly public is convinced he is a nonfactor. Hence, perception is reality.


Like I said. Nothing to do with the message and everything to do with how people will do whatever the TV tells them to.

Just because it is truth and it is being pointed out as such, does not mean that some of us are “playing up this ignorance of the masses due to the media" as you put it. That is the same mentality that has got George Bush off the hook for lying to the country to get us to go to war… “yeah, I lied and it is the single most important fact in the fact that I am criminal” “but hey.. that has been said a million times” “don’t you have anything new?”

It immediately disqualifies or marginalizes a major point of focus. It is one of the oldest and cheapest debate tactics known to man and the majority of people are still completely taken by it.

I am not.
 
Unfortunately, the rest of the world expects help from America's military might. If Ron Paul thinks terrorists or any of our enemies will simply "back off" because we remove our military bases from these countries, he's wrong, he's simply dead wrong.

I value your opinion, but to continue this war is to contribute the the fall of America. We can no longer afford this war. We shouldn't be in this war. The gov't didn't ask the American people, they just jumped in "for our own good", this war is unconstitutional. We need to bring our boys home and defend our soil, let them try and come here and test the full might of our Armed Forces. I'm sorry, but I believe in taking care of home before taking care of others.
 
I value your opinion, but to continue this war is to contribute the the fall of America. We can no longer afford this war. We shouldn't be in this war. The gov't didn't ask the American people, they just jumped in "for our own good", this war is unconstitutional. We need to bring our boys home and defend our soil, let them try and come here and test the full might of our Armed Forces. I'm sorry, but I believe in taking care of home before taking care of others.
That wasn't a comment directed at the Iraq war, or any war in particular. I think part of Ron Paul's problem is he doesn't see the difference between the war we have in Iraq and other middle eastern conflicts which might or might not require our intervention. I think it's obvious running this particular war, with tax cuts on top of it, was a bad idea. I don't think the world is so black and white though that one mistake, no matter how large, determines how we should conduct our foreign relations in all cases. Chances are if a country, like say Iran, were to acquire nuclear weapons, simply staying at home with our thumbs up our asses isn't going to prevent or deter them from firing them on American soil.
 
McCain: 27.6%
Romney: 27.0%
Giuliani: 20.4%
Huckabee: 17.3%
Paul: 7.6%
By you're logic Huckabee, who by far has the least resources, should have been out by Super Tuesday. Romney, who has the most money by far, ought to be the front runner. Guiliani, who has slightly more name recognition than the other candidates, ought not to be a footnote of a footnote by now. However, this doesn't change the fact that one candidate the media wrote off, Huckabee, came back and won 5 states on Super Tuesday, and could possibly do very well in the upcoming Louisiana and Kansas primary.
 
By you're logic Huckabee, who by far has the least resources, should have been out by Super Tuesday. Romney, who has the most money by far, ought to be the front runner. Guiliani, who has slightly more name recognition than the other candidates, ought not to be a footnote of a footnote by now. However, this doesn't change the fact that one candidate the media wrote off, Huckabee, came back and won 5 states on Super Tuesday, and could possibly do very well in the upcoming Louisiana and Kansas primary.

You are not factoring in the religious vote. Huckabee mostly had success in areas with a high percentage of Baptists. This is the same reason Romney dominated Nevada due to Mormon vote. The only real shocker he pulled off was Arizona.
My logic is based in facts. To say that a huge imbalance in candidate exposure and talk time in debates has no bearing on the ability for the country to get to know them and what they stand for in complete asinine.
Huckabee was doing very well in the beginning and had generated a lot of buzz. This was due to having a lot more talk time himself. It is only as of late that his mic was cut (right around the time he forgot about the separation of church and state) and his numbers immediately went in the tank.
 
You are not factoring in the religious vote.

Actually, I was. That's kind of a key point me and Matt are making, that you consistently miss. People have their reasons for voting for Huckabee, and it's issues based, just as most of those polls claim issues and the candidate as a person factor most into their decision making. Fact is, most wrote off McCain early on in these primaries, almost giving him no time in debates, and devoting most of the air time to Guiliani, Thompson and Romney, all of whom are total wash outs.
Huckabee mostly had success in areas with a high percentage of Baptists. This is the same reason Romney dominated Nevada due to Mormon vote. The only real shocker he pulled off was Arizona.
Okay, and people can't vote over religious issues? So Mormon's wanted a mormon in office, I don't go around criticising mormon's for voting for those reasons. Just like a don't criticize wacko's for wanting another wacko in office. What I do criticize, however, is Ron Paul supporters blaiming everyone else for their candidate's downfall. Or maybe I should start saying "the media" is at fault for the Patriots losing the superbowl:whatever:
My logic is based in facts.
FACT: Ron Paul is fifth, count it, fifth in fund raising for his own party. He is eight in fundraising overall.
FACT: Ron Paul is dead last in vote count
FACT: Everyone KNOWS who Ron Paul is, he is the guy who takes extreme stances in all the debates and stays in the race long past the point where it is STATISTICALLY possible for him to make any ground whatsoever.

You don't base your logic on facts, sorry.
To say that a huge imbalance in candidate exposure and talk time in debates has no bearing on the ability for the country to get to know them and what they stand for in complete asinine.
McCain and Huckabee started out as dark horse candidates behind the much more formitable and rich Guiliani and Romney. You completely ignore this to make a point, that, by all rights, made no sense to begin with. Sorry, the people who vote make up their own minds for their own reasons, and in this case the media, who was toting Guiliani as the preceived frontrunning way back in 2007, were completely and utterly wrong. They totally, I mean totally, wrote off McCain. They said he was too old, and if you were following the debates, you'd realize he got very little face time in the beginning. It was only after New Hampshire, and South Carolina that anyone started paying attention to him.
Huckabee was doing very well in the beginning and had generated a lot of buzz.
...Because he won Iowa, something no one though he would do.
This was due to having a lot more talk time himself.
Yeah, ummmm, no.
It is only as of late that his mic was cut (right around the time he forgot about the separation of church and state) and his numbers immediately went in the tank.
Are you even watching the election coverage:huh: , like at all. He picked up 5 states yesterday, after THE MEDIA completely wrote him off in favor of Romney who JUST DROPPED OUT. Everyone thought Huckabee would win SC, he didn't. Now, after he was sidelined in the last debate, he comes back and carries the south.
 
didnt Ron also want to legalize pot.....?? I would guess a nice chunk of his support comes from that
 
didnt Ron also want to legalize pot.....?? I would guess a nice chunk of his support comes from that
No, he just wants "to leave it up to the states". Actually, come to think of it, that's basically his stance on everything: leave it up to the states. So he doesn't really say "I want to legalize this/that" just that everything is everyone else's decision.
 
I think certain decisions should be left up to the states...gay marriage being one of them.....I personally feel marriage should be between 2(two) consenting adults....and by adult I mean 18 yo none of that emancipated crap
 
I think certain decisions should be left up to the states...gay marriage being one of them.....I personally feel marriage should be between 2(two) consenting adults....and by adult I mean 18 yo none of that emancipated crap
Well if that were left up to the states, you'd have about 80% of our states telling gay people they have no business ever getting married.

"State's Rights", especially on issues of human rights, is usually a buzzword for racism. They used to cry state's rights back in the good ole' segregated south to keep blacks in their place so they could avoid integrating the schools and businesses.
 
Well if that were left up to the states, you'd have about 80% of our states telling gay people they have no business ever getting married.

"State's Rights", especially on issues of human rights, is usually a buzzword for racism. They used to cry state's rights back in the good ole' segregated south to keep blacks in their place so they could avoid integrating the schools and businesses.

it would be honest.....a big part of this countrys problem and its citizens is that we are such bullsh**ers....we say things like we dont have a problem with black people, yet I still get followed if I walk into certain stores. You have these latte sucking suburbanites donating money to charity, but would you see any of them in a low income neighborhood handing out sandwiches or helping clean a park up NO YOU WONT.....We have no sense of what it means to be a "citizen". The reason our government is run by ******s is because our best and brightest go into the private sector because the government (local, state, federal) doesnt pay squat and there is no incentive at all to work there, not when Dell can give you stock options and a time share.....we are so wrapped up in ourselves and no one is willing to admit it
 
No, he just wants "to leave it up to the states". Actually, come to think of it, that's basically his stance on everything: leave it up to the states. So he doesn't really say "I want to legalize this/that" just that everything is everyone else's decision.

Amendment 10 - Powers of the States and People. Ratified 12/15/1791

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

geeee I wonder why that would be? :whatever:

Takes about 30 min to read and just may get you to the point where you may be able to, some day persuade me you have any idea what you are talking about.
 
it would be honest.....a big part of this countrys problem and its citizens is that we are such bullsh**ers....we say things like we dont have a problem with black people, yet I still get followed if I walk into certain stores. You have these latte sucking suburbanites donating money to charity, but would you see any of them in a low income neighborhood handing out sandwiches or helping clean a park up NO YOU WONT.....We have no sense of what it means to be a "citizen". The reason our government is run by ******s is because our best and brightest go into the private sector because the government (local, state, federal) doesnt pay squat and there is no incentive at all to work there, not when Dell can give you stock options and a time share.....we are so wrapped up in ourselves and no one is willing to admit it
Depends on which part of Government. Low level Government jobs are most definitely for bottom feeders, I'm right with you there. Upper level jobs, and no I don't just mean public office, rock my socks off. The pay is great, the competition is fierce and the benefits are beyond awesome.
 
I work in the private sector....the only time I have spent with the government is the 4 years I spent in the USN right out of HS....I dont doubt that higher level jobs are the s**t( my dad has a city job in Maine, hes been there for 13 years and hes basically untouchable), but for the most part..our best and brightest are cashing checks from the private sector
 
geeee I wonder why that would be? :whatever:

Takes about 30 min to read and just may get you to the point where you may be able to, some day persuade me you have any idea what you are talking about.
That's nice and all, but we also have the Commerce clause, the equal protections clause and a number of ammendments to consider. The constitution is a living document, not a Bible, that's why we have an ammendment process and why we have judicial review. The Constitution was not created at a time when we had a need for NASA, an industrial sector the economy or even a modern education system. I was a political science major in college, went in a Republican and came out a Democrat. I probably understand more about this nations history than you do.

Ron Paul's solution to everything: go back to the way the founders did it...is that what you're saying. Sorry, won't happen. It must be nice to run a homogenious society, based in agriculture, where only white male land owners can vote and hold public office. Now, we don't have that luxury. Thankfully the founding fathers, I think, knew this and wrote a pretty vague document. "Life", "liberty" and the "pursuit" of happiness or even what a "right" is, is never clearly defined in the constitution. Sure, you can read Jefferson's letters and find out he had a pretty clear picture of what Government was supposed to be...but then again Jefferson also wanted an entirely new constitution and Government formed every twenty years...and we're still using the original.

The Founding Fathers wanted many things: they wanted an executive who never spoke before Congress. That reminded them too much of kings before parliament. They wanted a country with no standing armies, ever. They felt it gave the executive too much power, when militia's would suffice. They wanted blacks and women to be second class citizens, because they lacked the mental and physical capacities of men...although Jefferson slowly began to abandon that belief. They also wanted an executive who wasn't elected by the people, but rather appointed by Congress. Neither Washington, nor Adams, nor Jefferson were elected in any way similar to today's method. So I don't see how Ron Paul literalists seem to want a literally interpreted constitution in only some regards.

You see the reason the powers of the Federal Government have been expanded IS because of the constitution being interpreted correctly in changing times. Yes, one could argue that certain adminstrations have abused this power, but I guess you could also argue states abuse their rights when they withhold blacks from attending school with white students. The commerce clause protects the Federal Government's right to regulate goods that are produced in one state but consumed by many, or another. Think about this in a modern era context.

Education: originally it was a commody consumed by one state. You probably, or at least in most cases, were educated in one state, grew up in that state, and held employment in that state. Now a days the likelyhood you will settle where you grew up is pretty slim, and it is in the best interest of the Government to make sure your rights are protected if you move from one state to another to ensure you can get the same quality education. Imagine if you move from one state to another, only to find they educated their residents completely differently. That would be pretty troublesome, wouldn't it?

Or perhaps another example. the environment. If you pollute does it affect just you? No, as we've planely seen it effects everyone. Not just in your state, but now as far north as the polar ice caps and as far south as Santa's workshop. The Government has a vested interest in making sure the pollution made by California doesn't effect the clear skies of Nevada, Colorado or Utah: all of which can potentially be affected.

Am I a proponent of big Government, I suppose a Ron Paul supporter would say I am. I like to think though I understand the world is slightly more complex than Ron Paul would make it. Property right's will not stop people from polluting, it will harbor it in fact. State's rights will not protect gay's, mexican's or minorities, it will create a country divided, as it did in the past. The Government's job, first and foremost, according to the Constitution you keep quoting is to protect both the rights of it's citizens, and protect our country from attack. If you think you can accomplish these things with strict constructionalism in today's era, with non interventionalist foreign policy, with low taxes (especially in the current economic climate) you're very much entitled to that belief.

The problem with Ron Paul is all his solutions are the same to me: turn back the clock. Want to fix education, get rid of the DOE and go back to the constitution. Want to fix terrorism, pull all our forces out of the middle east and pretend we never interviewed, we shouldn't be there in the first place. But guess what? we are. Ron Paul lives to criticize the world we are in, not fix it. You will NEVER GO BACK to the way the founding father's intended. It's not going to happen. It wasn't going to happen when Lincoln took office, and it sure as sh** ain't happening now.
 
I work in the private sector....the only time I have spent with the government is the 4 years I spent in the USN right out of HS....I dont doubt that higher level jobs are the s**t( my dad has a city job in Maine, hes been there for 13 years and hes basically untouchable), but for the most part..our best and brightest are cashing checks from the private sector
Well the private sector is bigger, for one. Also, I don't disagree with you, incidentally. Anyone with bold new ideas is a natural fit for the private sector. You'd be surprised, however, just how many of us (like myself) still value public service. I volunteered for the Clinton campaign for example. It didn't pay, the hours sucked, but I enjoyed campaigning in my home state.

Also, everyone starts out at the bottom. I work a typical retail job right now on top of Bodybuilding and saving up to go back to school, probably for law. I want to run for office eventually, I just lack the experience and ability right now. Becoming a public servant is hard work. Much like anything else, you need connections. The private sector is an easier sell because you have better job security and less risk. In the public sector you can get a job working for a community outreach program, two years later have your funding cut and be out looking for work. Or maybe you're like my friend Joe, who spent a year and a half unemployed, despite being one of the best political aids in all of Massachusetts. Now he works for Deval Patrick, and who knows how long that'll last.

Basically, as I said, Government jobs are competitive as sh**, and you need to really want them. There are a lot of bright people in those fields, they have to be, however, you're right to point out it's not nearly as attractive.
 
I commend anyone who wants to run for public office....I recently moved back to the town I grew up in as my job is the next town over...a guy i graduated HS with has twice ran against the incumbent state rep in this district and has lost both times, and he'll run again because its what he WANTS to do....
 
I commend anyone who wants to run for public office....I recently moved back to the town I grew up in as my job is the next town over...a guy i graduated HS with has twice ran against the incumbent state rep in this district and has lost both times, and he'll run again because its what he WANTS to do....
Hey, that's great. I mean the losing sucks, but the fact that he is trying is a really good thing. I commend anyone, even Ron Paul, for running for public office or working for public services and organizations. There is a lot of risk involved, and often no reward, but if you can succeed, there ain't nothing better to have on your resume.
 
I think our state rep elections are due up next November....each year he has received more and more votes....so I hope he wins next time around. Im really intrested in the running mates for the perspective candidates...Im sure they each have a short list of people they would want...
 
I think our state rep elections are due up next November....each year he has received more and more votes....so I hope he wins next time around. Im really intrested in the running mates for the perspective candidates...Im sure they each have a short list of people they would want...
Personally, for the Dems, I think Wesley Clark is a smart choice for either. He has great military experience.
 
I commend anyone who wants to run for public office....I recently moved back to the town I grew up in as my job is the next town over...a guy i graduated HS with has twice ran against the incumbent state rep in this district and has lost both times, and he'll run again because its what he WANTS to do....

Some day, when I know exactly what it is I want to do, I plan to run for public office. Unfortunately, I can't run back home, so it will take a lot of time and networking. But it isn't out of the realm of possibilities.

Also, ShadowBoxing, what would you be interested in running for? Do you have any political experiences or connections? (you may have mentioned it, but I avoided most of the conversation because I'm neither opposed to or against Ron Paul/ libertarianism)
 
Some day, when I know exactly what it is I want to do, I plan to run for public office. Unfortunately, I can't run back home, so it will take a lot of time and networking. But it isn't out of the realm of possibilities.

just curious...why can't you run there??
 

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