The Libertarian Thread

[marcofthebeast]

I dunno, with Ron Paul yesterday claiming that we shouldn't have an education system or agriculture defense...I dunno.

I mean, the Mad Max Wasteland is awesome and all. But c'mon.

Just because education isn't publicly funded doesn't mean it disappears out of existence. Private schools have been in existence before public schools and work fine. The very fact that a private school can exist when government offers "free" schooling shows you how effective public education is.

 

[StorminNorman]

I dunno, with Ron Paul yesterday claiming that we shouldn't have an education system or agriculture defense...I dunno.

I mean, the Mad Max Wasteland is awesome and all. But c'mon.

Please point me to anything saying Ron Paul doesn't want an education system.

 

[StorminNorman]

Just because education isn't publicly funded doesn't mean it disappears out of existence. Private schools have been in existence before public schools and work fine. The very fact that a private school can exist when government offers "free" schooling shows you how effect public education is.

Ron Paul doesn't even want to end publicly funded education. Which is a good thing. While private school can be effective, I don't simply want those that can afford it to be educated, at least on some basic level.

 

[marcofthebeast]

Ron Paul doesn't even want to end publicly funded education. Which is a good thing. While private school can be effective, I don't simply want those that can afford it to be educated, at least on some basic level.

Well you can label me a strict libertarian. Just as Penn thinks its wrong to force people to give money to build a library. I think its wrong to force people to give money to fund a school. Especially considering how poorly our schools are functioning.

 

[StorminNorman]

You fix the schools.

You can't afford as a civilization to have a large portion of the populace uneducated. ESPECIALLY when that portion would already tend to be poor and underprivileged.

 

[Paradoxium]

You don't need "Department of Education" to have publically funded education, nor has it proven empirically on any level it (such a Department) "improves" anything (often quite the contrary). This is one of those instances where calibrating policies from bottom up might be helpful due to regional and demographic differences.

 

[Kelly]

True dox, but you have to have consistency in areas of curriculum........if not then you have states that have strict, tough state tests like Texas looking like idiots to states like North Dakota that have nothing.....

I don't necessarily like state tests, but if written correctly like the Social Studies TAKS and the Social Studies Regency tests of Texas and New York, then you have tests that truly test WHAT the students should KNOW. Or, the EOC (End of Course Exams) that Texas is moving into in a few years. It keeps the students AND teachers accountable to what they should be learning and teaching. NOW, we have National Standards, but until states like California, North/South Dakota, Louisiana, etc starts actually setting their standards as high as other states, then the lists we get tell us nothing of the US as a whole.

 

[Paradoxium]

True dox, but you have to have consistency in areas of curriculum........if not then you have states that have strict, tough state tests like Texas looking like idiots to states like North Dakota that have nothing.....

I don't necessarily like state tests, but if written correctly like the Social Studies TAKS and the Social Studies Regency tests of Texas and New York, then you have tests that truly test WHAT the students should KNOW. Or, the EOC (End of Course Exams) that Texas is moving into in a few years. It keeps the students AND teachers accountable to what they should be learning and teaching. NOW, we have National Standards, but until states like California, North/South Dakota, Louisiana, etc starts actually setting their standards as high as other states, then the lists we get tell us nothing of the US as a whole.

I agree

Do you mean you need a Department to institute these consistency of curriculum across the board, perhaps?

 

[Handsome Rob]

I agree

Do you mean you need a Department to institute these consistency of curriculum across the board, perhaps?

Why not let the states and the local school districts compete with each other to provide the best educational service to their students? After all, if Tennessee cranks out the best educated students, then the state of Tennessee wins with a better-educated populace, and the state of Kentucky can either work harder or risk losing out to their neighbor.

We need more competition, with each state establishing its own standards--trying to one-up the other states. I honestly believe this would have a better effect on education than a federal entity that has no real competition within US borders.

 

[Kelly]

I agree

Do you mean you need a Department to institute these consistency of curriculum across the board, perhaps?

Not necessarily, but it does need to happen. I would also like better oversight of where Federal funds are being spent. Our district is very watchful of what Federal funds go to, and what State funds go to.......but there are some states and districts that do not have that strong of oversight. I'm not sure who would do that if we did not have a department within the government to do that....

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Ron Paul was on the Ed Show. He did clarify, saying he didn't want a PUBLIC school system. Because it sucks.

Which is fine, for all you people with money.

Should keep us poor people stupid. As if it wasn't hard enough already, let's just do that and seal the deal.

I'm sure Paul has a plan of sorts that he couldn't pan out enitrely, because it's a complicate problem. But what I watched made it look stupid.

 

[StorminNorman]

Ron Paul was on the Ed Show. He did clarify, saying he didn't want a PUBLIC school system. Because it sucks.

Which is fine, for all you people with money.

Should keep us poor people stupid. As if it wasn't hard enough already, let's just do that and seal the deal.

I'm sure Paul has a plan of sorts that he couldn't pan out enitrely, because it's a complicate problem. But what I watched made it look stupid.

Again, you don't understand Paul's education plan at all.

He thinks every child should get a 3000 school voucher and choose which school they go to.

Q: You said you want to abolish the public school system.A: We elected conservatives to get rid of the Department of Education. We used to campaign on that. And what did we do? We doubled the size. I want to reverse that trend.
Q: What about public schools? Are you still for dismantling them?
A: No, I’m not. It’s not in my platform.
QWhen you ran for president in 1988, you called for the abolition of public schools.
A: I bet that’s a misquote. I do not recall that.

http://www.ontheissues.org/2008/Ron_Paul_Education.htm

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Okay. So explain it to me, Norm.

Is it for high schools, college? All throughout the education of a kid?

Paul made it sound like no public schools, because he clearly wants less government...but someone's gotta flip the bill, right?

 

[Paradoxium]

I don't understand how this is so hard to comprehend.

By enacting this system, demand for private school will rise, and companies looking to cash in on this new demand help grow the supply. The government would probably auction off all the public schools to private companies to speed things up. People also make the mistake of thinking about the cost of higher end private school to average ones.

I do have some problems, but for very different reasons from the progressives.

An example is people have this propensity to prefer higher socio-economic status school, as oppose to school of higher quality education. The two are often not the same thing (whilst there are some overlap), but it happens anyways. This is an instance of seemingly rational people making predictably irrational choices.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I dunno. Letting Corporations have a hand in our education...could be bad.

 

[Paradoxium]

How are the frailties of corporate types any different from those in government and bureaucratic structures? They are both human with their set of flaws.

The main utility would be: parents will (on some level but not entirely - location will be the issue) have the choice to choose schools of liking - curriculum they prefer.

So for an example, a Christian fundamentalist would of course now have the option to go with more churchy school that teaches say intelligent design. Whilst the athiest/agnostic types would prefer evolution. This is an instance of catering to market niche and profiting. So if a christian school sucks, another company opens up to capitalize on their fail with a superior school etc...

The government is than taken out of the equation in exercising what ideological bents the school ought and ought not have, because that control falls to the parents and market place. At most, I see this as an issue of people not content with what other people’s children are forced to learn (aka things they disagree with).

 

[Handsome Rob]

I dunno. Letting Corporations have a hand in our education...could be bad.

Or it could be good. Imagine the value of having Microsoft or Apple as one of your sponsoring corporations. Good computers, and you could have employees from them visiting the school and teaching the students "real world" experience in all aspects of work from time to time. If you had Cargill sponsoring a rural school, they could provide classes for students wanting to get into the farming business (the actual business side of it could be taught, as well). What kind of chemistry and biology tools could be provided with the might of GlaxoSmithKline behind a school?

I don't see any less of an "agenda" with a corporate sponsorship than I do with the oversight of a federal or state government. Contrary to the opinions of some, corporations =/= always evil and manipulative, and government (particularly federal) =/= always benevolent and non-biased.

 

[SentinelMind]

Why not let the states and the local school districts compete with each other to provide the best educational service to their students? After all, if Tennessee cranks out the best educated students, then the state of Tennessee wins with a better-educated populace, and the state of Kentucky can either work harder or risk losing out to their neighbor.

We need more competition, with each state establishing its own standards--trying to one-up the other states. I honestly believe this would have a better effect on education than a federal entity that has no real competition within US borders.

I 100% agree.

 

[Kelly]

Why not let the states and the local school districts compete with each other to provide the best educational service to their students? After all, if Tennessee cranks out the best educated students, then the state of Tennessee wins with a better-educated populace, and the state of Kentucky can either work harder or risk losing out to their neighbor.

We need more competition, with each state establishing its own standards--trying to one-up the other states. I honestly believe this would have a better effect on education than a federal entity that has no real competition within US borders.

What you are saying is what we already have....

What is going to be your criteria for which school is best? and worst? and inbetween?

What is going to keep states from doing what they are right now? Making their own standards? Of course those that want to be #1 will have lower standards to up their scores.....which is happening right now....

How are you going to compare states like North Dakota and their standards and scores where the demographic is extremely WASP, to those of urban areas? How are they going to compete with each other?

 

[Paradoxium]

The irrational choice would be to go by test scores. How close am I t:

 

[Kelly]

The irrational choice would be to go by test scores. How close am I t:

Who's test, what test, what is on the test????? Is there a test? What do you test? When do you test?

 

[Paradoxium]

I meant average grade marks.

 

[Kelly]

I meant average grade marks.

??????

 

[Paradoxium]

Are you talking about schools as it is, or in the theoretical case of an all out privatized non-college system?

 

[Kelly]

I'm talking about what Handsome Rob is talking about, state and local school districts competing with each other....