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The Libertarian Thread

I keep thinking about it through different angles, but it's giving me a headache.

So I am going to opt for the most insane answer.

I say **** it and commit political suicide. Have some sort of nation wide standardized IQ test, and stratify schools on IQ tranches and stick your child in the most appropriate tranche. So if my kid is low IQ, he/she goes to remedial school, if above average... gifted school.

Is that an insane enough answer?
 
Ok, someone suggested it, so here it is.

How many libertarians are here. How come this common sense approach to life isn't more, well, common?
Firstly I think Libertarians (or classical liberal) are going to become more popular in our society when people realize the massive corruption in the other parties. As far as why more people aren't Libertarians I think it is just like why religion has stayed with us. People are mainly born into being either party and brought up with like minded people so they stay in that mindset. It's no secret that most states have been PERMA-Red or Blue and that what we are fed.
 
"What it feels like to Be a Libertarian"
By: Reason Magazine

Being a libertarian means living with an almost unendurable level of frustration. It means being subject to unending scorn and derision despite being inevitably proven correct by events. How does it feel to be a libertarian? Imagine what the internal life of Cassandra must have been and you will have a pretty good idea. [...] Libertarians spend their lives accurately predicting the future effects of government policy. Their predictions are accurate because they are derived from Hayek's insights into the limitations of human knowledge, from the recognition that the people who comprise the government respond to incentives just like anyone else and are not magically transformed to selfless agents of the good merely by accepting government employment, from the awareness that for government to provide a benefit to some, it must first take it from others, and from the knowledge that politicians cannot repeal the laws of economics. For the same reason, their predictions are usually negative and utterly inconsistent with the utopian wishful-thinking that lies at the heart of virtually all contemporary political advocacy. And because no one likes to hear that he cannot have his cake and eat it too or be told that his good intentions cannot be translated into reality either by waving a magic wand or by passing legislation, these predictions are greeted not merely with disbelief, but with derision. [...]

If you'd like a taste of what it feels like to be a libertarian, try telling people that the incoming Obama Administration is advocating precisely those aspects of FDR's New Deal that prolonged the great depression for a decade; that propping up failed and failing ventures with government money in order to save jobs in the present merely shifts resources from relatively more to relatively less productive uses, impedes the corrective process, undermines the economic growth necessary for recovery, and increases unemployment in the long term; and that any "economic" stimulus package will inexorably be made to serve political rather than economic ends, and see what kind of reaction you get. And trust me, it won't feel any better five or ten years from now when everything you have just said has been proven true and Obama, like FDR, is nonetheless revered as the savior of the country.
 
Firstly I think Libertarians (or classical liberal) are going to become more popular in our society when people realize the massive corruption in the other parties. As far as why more people aren't Libertarians I think it is just like why religion has stayed with us. People are mainly born into being either party and brought up with like minded people so they stay in that mindset. It's no secret that most states have been PERMA-Red or Blue and that what we are fed.

I agree with you on some level. However, that is a pretty narrow view of religion. The same could be said for non-religious beliefs.

Truth be told. I was converted into Christianity as most Christians in the world are. Additionally, my religious beliefs have greatly informed my political belief which I would describe as being largely Libertarian (small government, low taxes, non-interventionism, sound money, etc). Many would argue that it is because of Christianity that such ideas even exist as all of them are Biblical truths. The last thing you want is a totally atheistic state because believe you me that is exactly what China and communist Russia were. Evolution + reason gives genocide a solid ground to stand on.


Anyway, that's why I am Libertarian! :awesome:
 
I agree with you on some level. However, that is a pretty narrow view of religion. The same could be said for non-religious beliefs.

Truth be told. I was converted into Christianity as most Christians in the world are. Additionally, my religious beliefs have greatly informed my political belief which I would describe as being largely Libertarian (small government, low taxes, non-interventionism, sound money, etc). Many would argue that it is because of Christianity that such ideas even exist as all of them are Biblical truths. The last thing you want is a totally atheistic state because believe you me that is exactly what China and communist Russia were. Evolution + reason gives genocide a solid ground to stand on.


Anyway, that's why I am Libertarian! :awesome:
Backdrifter please note I did not mean this as a slant against religion though many "religious" fall into the mix. What I was talking about of course was people believing in things simply because that is what they are told from a child to believe. Humans are social animals and are willing to accept premises that society (that in which we live; think red/blue state) gives them without much questioning.
If they are brought up as children to believe in something they will backwards rationalize they came to these conclusions from reason. Don't get confused this is not to say that ideas that they accepted don't have merit. Dr. Michael Shermer of Skeptic Magazine has this brilliant quote that says smart people are great at rationalizing things they came to believe for non smart reasons. Hopefully this clarified what I meant by what I had said...:huh:

As for the second quote I refer you to a video I actually posted recently on the "so called crimes of atheism". FYI the audio is off and I had a cold :awesome:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVwdVlr87fo
 
It seems like quite a few Libertarians here seem to believe we should give a blank check on foreign and military matters, that we should always just trust that the government knows what is doing in these areas and the general public should get no say in this.

That seems completely contradictory to me, what the government can't be trusted to build a highway, but they should be given absolute trust when it comes to safety of the nation?

When it comes to foreign affairs, the government often makes immoral and incompetent choices, that makes America less safe, like arming Saddam in the 80s.

The Health Care bill is evil, but the US government supporting the Saudi Monarchy is okay?

This is a major contradiction.
 
You don't understand what Libetarians are.
 
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The non-aggression principle: By Walter Block
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The non-aggression axiom is the lynchpin of the philosophy of libertarianism. It states, simply, that it shall be legal for anyone to do anything he wants, provided only that he not initiate (or threaten) violence against the person or legitimately owned property of another. That is, in the free society, one has the right to manufacture, buy or sell any good or service at any mutually agreeable terms. Thus, there would be no victimless crime prohibitions, price controls, government regulation of the economy, etc.[/FONT]​
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]If the non-aggression axiom is the basic building block of libertarianism, private property rights based on (Lockean and Rothbardian) homesteading principles are the foundation. For if A reaches into B’s pocket, pulls out his wallet and runs away with it, we cannot know that A is the aggressor and B the victim. It may be that A is merely repossessing his own wallet, the one B stole from him yesterday. But given a correct grounding in property rights, the non-aggression axiom is a very powerful tool in the war of ideas. For most individuals believe, and fervently so, that it is wrong to invade other people or their property. Who, after all, favors theft, murder or rape? With this as an entering wedge, libertarians are free to apply this axiom to all of human action, including, radically, to unions, taxes, and even government itself.[/FONT]​
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The non-aggression axiom and private property rights theory which underlies it have recently come under furious attack, amazingly, from commentators actually calling themselves libertarians. Let us consider two cases posed by these people.[/FONT]​
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]First, you are standing on the balcony of a 25th story high-rise apartment when, much to your dismay, you lose your footing and fall out. Happily, in your downward descent, you manage to grab onto a flagpole protruding from the 15th floor of the balcony of another apartment, 10 floors below. Unhappily, the owner of this apartment comes out to her balcony, states that you are protesting by holding on to her flag pole, and demands that you let go (e.g., drop another 15 floors to your death). You protest that you only want to hand walk your way down the flag pole, into her apartment, and then right out of it, but she is adamant. As a libertarian, are you bound to obey her?[/FONT]​
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Second case. You are lost in the woods, freezing, with no food. You will die without shelter and a meal. Fortunately, you come upon a warm cabin stocked with staples. You intend to eat, stay the night, leave your business card, and pay double any reasonable price that could be asked. Unfortunately, the cabin has a sign posted on the door: "Warning. Private Property. No Trespassing." Do you tamely go off into the woods and die?[/FONT]​
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Opponents of the non-aggression axiom maintain that you have no obligation to die in either of these cases, much less in the name of private property rights. In their view these concepts have been adopted to promote human life and well-being, which, ordinarily, they do, and superlatively so. But in these exceptional cases, where the non-aggression standard would be contrary to utilitarian principles, it should be jettisoned. The non-aggression principle, for them, is a good rule of thumb, which sometimes, rarely, should be ignored.[/FONT]​
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]There are several grave problems with these critiques of the non-aggression axiom.[/FONT]​
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]1. They misunderstand the nature of libertarianism. These arguments implicitly assume that libertarianism is a moral philosophy, a guide to proper behavior, as it were. Should the flagpole hanger let go? Should the hiker go off and die? But libertarianism is a theory concerned with the justified use of aggression, or violence, based on property rights, not morality. Therefore, the only proper questions which can be addressed in this philosophy are of the sort, if the flagpole hanger attempts to come in to the apartment, and the occupant shoots him for trespassing, Would the forces of law and order punish the home owner? Or, if the owner of the cabin in the woods sets up a booby trap, such that when someone forces his way into his property he gets a face full of buckshot, Would he be guilty of a law violation? When put in this way, the answer is clear. The owner in each case is in the right, and the trespasser in the wrong. If force is used to protect property rights, even deadly force, the owner is not guilty of the violation of any licit law.[/FONT]​
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]2. These examples purposefully try to place us in the mind of the criminal perpetrator of the crime of trespass. We are invited, that is, to empathize with the flag pole hanger, and the hiker, not the respective property owners. But let us reverse this perspective. Suppose the owner of the apartment on the 15th floor has recently been victimized by a rape, perpetrated upon her by a member of the same ethnic or racial group as the person now hand walking his way down her flag pole, soon to uninvitedly enter her apartment. May she not shoot him in self-defense before he enters her premises? Or, suppose that the owner of the cabin in the woods has been victimized by several break-ins in the past few months, and has finally decided to do something in defense of his property. Or, suppose that the owner, himself, views his cabin as his own life preserver. Then, may he not take steps to safeguard his property? To ask these questions is to answer them, at least for the consistent libertarian.[/FONT]​
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]3. The criticisms of libertarian property rights theory base their views on the philosophy of emergencies. The non-aggression axiom is all well and good in ordinary circumstances, but when there are life boat situations, all bets are off. The problem, however, with violating libertarian law for special exigencies is that these occurrences are more commonplace than supposed. Right now, there are numerous people dying of starvation in poor parts of the world. Some are suffering from illnesses which could be cured cheaply, e.g., by penicillin. We have all read those advertisements placed by aid agencies: "Here is little Maria. You can save her, and her entire village, by sending us some modest amount of money each month."[/FONT]​
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]In point of fact, many so called libertarians who have attacked the non-aggression axiom on these emergency grounds live in housing of a middle class level or better; drive late model cars; eat well; have jewelry; send their children to pricey colleges. If they truly believed in their critiques, none of this would be true. For if the cabin owner and the apartment dweller are to give up their property rights to save the hiker and the flagpole hanger, then they must give up their comfortable middle class life styles in behalf of all the easily cured sick and starving people in the world. That they have not done so shows they do not even take their own arguments seriously.[/FONT]​
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The logical implication of their coercive welfarist argument is far worse than merely being required to give a few dollars a month to a relief agency. For suppose they do this. Their standard of living will still be far greater than those on the verge of death from straightened circumstances. No, as long as these relatively rich "libertarians" have enough money to keep themselves from dying from poverty, the logic of their argument compels them to give every penny they own over and above that level to alleviate the plight of the endangered poor.[/FONT]​
 
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It seems like quite a few Libertarians here seem to believe we should give a blank check on foreign and military matters, that we should always just trust that the government knows what is doing in these areas and the general public should get no say in this.

That seems completely contradictory to me, what the government can't be trusted to build a highway, but they should be given absolute trust when it comes to safety of the nation?

When it comes to foreign affairs, the government often makes immoral and incompetent choices, that makes America less safe, like arming Saddam in the 80s.

The Health Care bill is evil, but the US government supporting the Saudi Monarchy is okay?

This is a major contradiction.


wow......no.



@Thirdworld and this party becoming mainstream...

Unless the (L) party chooses people that can articulately, without coming off as a complete idiot as their spokesperson and their Presidential candidate, they will stay a party with no real future.

So far, even though I agree alot with their platform, there is no way in hell I would vote for their candidates that they have chosen over the past years of my voting career.
 
A viable, well spoken, and intelligent candidate makes all the difference.
 
Sure does, they don't even have to have ANY experience whatsoever.....
 
Sure does, they don't even have to have ANY experience whatsoever.....
 
You mean appears intelligent :)

Let's face it, first impressions are important. And really, there are plenty of smart people who are socially ******ed and are as charismatic as a wet cardboard box. And there are those who talk and look smart as a spokesperson, but are as dumb as a wet cardboard box.
 
You mean appears intelligent :)

Let's face it, first impressions are important. And really, there are plenty of smart people who are socially ******ed and are as charismatic as a wet cardboard box. And there are those who talk and look smart as a spokesperson, but are as dumb as a wet cardboard box.


Very true......people aren't going to even open the package if it ain't wrapped purty.....
 
It's a good thing TV wasn't around during the Founding of this Country. Adams wouldn't have been allowed anywhere near the Presidency. And Washington??? With THOSE teeth???
 
That is for sure......in fact, many historians believe that Nixon would have won his first election had the debates not been televised.
 
They need to get an uber Alpha Male, looks smart, is smart, incredibly confident body language and assertive personality, good looking and tall. It's superficial but hey whatever it takes. Physical perceptions has a huge role. There was some study about how guys who are 5'7+ make more money on average than those below this... and it's quite obvious height has no baring on intelligence.
 
Yes yes I notice I used masculine pronouns, I am too lazy to fix it up to be PC :o
 
Well, honestly the first time out with a viable candidate.....it will probably have to be a man.
 
Well, honestly the first time out with a viable candidate.....it will probably have to be a man.
 
Maybe I am overstating a bit here, but it seems to me that politics, by nature, is pretty 'dirty.' If you want power in this country you are going to have to play the game. In contrast to this, Libertarianism is built around honesty and liberty. You have all these brilliant Libertarians who don't want to get their hands dirty. And, if they do decided to their hands dirty, they are sullying the very ideals that they stand for. So, what to do? I say just ride this burning plane until it crashes and the people realize that the "freedom guys" are the best option left.

:)
 
I dunno, that seems like the best case and least likely scenario. I think it will be:

- burning plane crashes in economic fail
- blame it entirely on capitalism (something we haven't really had due to the monetary foundation to begin with, the system was and still is perverted this way)
- probably turn to something more Soviet and managed, meanwhile the Russians go LOL.

History shows, the winners are those with the least scruples. Just my realist side speaking.
 
@ Paradoxium you 100% because that is what is going on and our future if we let it happen. Bush started the destruction of the dollar and Obama has it on high gear right now. They are already trying to blame capitalism ala Micheal Moore (the great "editor") and the white house is full of Soviet types.

It all sounds like something out of a novel but as Byron said truth is stranger than fiction.
 

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