The Lounge on the Train

[dude stannis]

The MCU Netflix shows are so much better than the DC CW shows it's not even funny.

Actually, it's pretty funny.

Arrow Season 3 and Daredevil Season 1 playing concurrently is tragic comedy on par with The Day the Clown Cried.

 

[Roose Bolton]

Well, don't be surprised if I hit you up for some advice as TBC must and will be moving into the realm of video soon enough.

Another tentacle in the GoT fandom Spectre

I don't know if you've heard of Preston Jacobs (Drz as he's also known) but his videos are astounding in their popularity within the fandom, specifically the ones regarding Daenarys, and the possibility that GRRM is weaving a meta narrative between his Science Fiction works.

https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCXU7XVK_2Wd6tAHYO8g9vAA

That guy is unstoppable.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

That's quite an (erroneous) assumption there, imo.

It's fine if you don't like them, but there are plenty of legit reasons that other people do, and it ain't just "powers and costumes." I only like two of them myself, despite the cheesy writing, because there are aspects I like about them. And NEITHER of those aspects are the costumes or power displays, both of which are done on shoestring budgets and are hardly dazzling people, lol. If anything, I'd say certain OTHER superhero media are currently the ones blinding people with impressive powers and costumes, but I wouldn't dare say which.

Well you are halfway admitting what I said. The cheese factor is HIGH on these shows. And I didn't state anything about the QUALITY of the SFX or costuming (or production values in general of the CW shows and AoS) just that they delivered them every week, and before these shows came on TV due to budget ect. we didn't see that sort of stuff. The shows are capable of doing that like never before and now the creators of these shows are of a generation (late 30's and 40's) who unabashedly embrace things like powers and secret identities where so many other adaptations we got were so half ass in those regards. And YES, I do think that the fans are just happy to see that sort of thing in live action that they give the low quality and cheesy writing a pass as well as the often low quality casting that occurs.

Look at FLASH... They repeat themselves constantly. There's no real moving forward with the characters. Compare ANY of the CW shows with say... STAR WARS REBELS on DISNEY XD, or even the now classic AVATAR-verse of NICK. Those half hour animated shows do heroics/action AND have writing that moves characters and plots forward in consistent and intelligent ways. Those shows from a writing and even performance standpoint (and peeps around here know how critical I have been of VO work for animated stuff) are head and shoulders above the Berlanti shows and AoS.

I think capes and powers along with the forced "lightness" and corniness are what allows the fans to hold these up as some kind of standard for these characters. I would also point out... Almost every time I get into to a conversation about these shows most ADMIT to the low quality writing and the terrible nature of the "cheese". So if people aren't watching for well thought out plots and characters and solid well done dialog, if they are admitting that then, what other reasons are there to watch?

And I am not letting myself off the hook for being vulnerable to the simple charms of seeing DC/Marvel heroes in action looking close to their comic book/animated form. I saw the SUPERGIRL premiere and seeing Superman and Supergirl doing super heroic stuff side by side make my inner 12 year old nergasm big time... But then they have to actually have the characters take part in the plot for that episode and here comes the lackluster dialog, the forced "adorkableness" the grating characterizations of most the show's denizens and plots more involved with forced drama that gets resolved far too easily. And again... fans have admitted to many of those same criticisms. So if they are seeing what I see and grading it almost the same there has to be SOME reason and sorry, I think it's that they are just happy to see a superhero in a proper costume, regardless of it's quality, doing super powered/vigilante stuff, again, regardless of the quality.

But that's just one man's view.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Another tentacle in the GoT fandom Spectre

I don't know if you've heard of Preston Jacobs (Drz as he's also known) but his videos are astounding in their popularity within the fandom, specifically the ones regarding Daenarys, and the possibility that GRRM is weaving a meta narrative between his Science Fiction works.

https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCXU7XVK_2Wd6tAHYO8g9vAA

That guy is unstoppable.

Very interesting. No I never knew that about Drz. Frankly, I'm blanking on whether I've had good interactions with Drz in the past or now.

 

[Greens]

Krypton, you were destined to destroy Berlanti.

 

[dude stannis]

The clear answer here is to give Dave Filoni control of a new DCAU.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

Hey folks. So because of a death in Ed's family our GoT show won't be up until next week. The show after that is going to be about Crossovers in in fiction.

My condolences.

If you could, tell me about your favorite crossovers in film, tv, comics or literature that you can think of. Hell, even if you don't like them let me know about the more obscure ones.

Post Crisis on Infinite Earths first meeting between Superman and Batman.
I really wanted the movie to do something like that instead of choosing physical confrontation.

hahahaha YES he finally said "sweet christmas!!!"

He said it in Jessica Jones, at least once.
It was still satisfying to hear him say it in his show.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

The clear answer here is to give Dave Filoni control of a new DCAU.

If only. Problem is Dave is gonna be busy in a galaxy far, far away for the long haul I think.

DiMartino and Konietzko should be given the task of heading up a new DCAU with no input from Timm or the outside of the various directors like Montgomery, Dos Santos, Liu ect. A Wonder Woman or Supes show from them would be amazing on all levels.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Krypton, you were destined to destroy Berlanti.

 

[Vartha]

My condolences.


Post Crisis on Infinite Earths first meeting between Superman and Batman.
I really wanted the movie to do something like that instead of choosing physical confrontation.

He said it in Jessica Jones, at least once.
It was still satisfying to hear him say it in his show.

heh yeah he said it twice in episode 9. Was kind of hoping he said it more often since Pops didn't like cussing

 

[flickchick85]

Well you are halfway admitting what I said. The cheese factor is HIGH on these shows. And I didn't state anything about the QUALITY of the SFX or costuming (or production values in general of the CW shows and AoS) just that they delivered them every week, and before these shows came on TV due to budget ect. we didn't see that sort of stuff. The shows are capable of doing that like never before and now the creators of these shows are of a generation (late 30's and 40's) who unabashedly embrace things like powers and secret identities where so many other adaptations we got were so half ass in those regards. And YES, I do think that the fans are just happy to see that sort of thing in live action that they give the low quality and cheesy writing a pass as well as the often low quality casting that occurs.

Look at FLASH... They repeat themselves constantly. There's no real moving forward with the characters. Compare ANY of the CW shows with say... STAR WARS REBELS on DISNEY XD, or even the now classic AVATAR-verse of NICK. Those half hour animated shows do heroics/action AND have writing that moves characters and plots forward in consistent and intelligent ways. Those shows from a writing and even performance standpoint (and peeps around here know how critical I have been of VO work for animated stuff) are head and shoulders above the Berlanti shows and AoS.

I think capes and powers along with the forced "lightness" and corniness are what allows the fans to hold these up as some kind of standard for these characters. I would also point out... Almost every time I get into to a conversation about these shows most ADMIT to the low quality writing and the terrible nature of the "cheese". So if people aren't watching for well thought out plots and characters and solid well done dialog, if they are admitting that then, what other reasons are there to watch?

And I am not letting myself off the hook for being vulnerable to the simple charms of seeing DC/Marvel heroes in action looking close to their comic book/animated form. I saw the SUPERGIRL premiere and seeing Superman and Supergirl doing super heroic stuff side by side make my inner 12 year old nergasm big time... But then they have to actually have the characters take part in the plot for that episode and here comes the lackluster dialog, the forced "adorkableness" the grating characterizations of most the show's denizens and plots more involved with forced drama that gets resolved far too easily. And again... fans have admitted to many of those same criticisms. So if they are seeing what I see and grading it almost the same there has to be SOME reason and sorry, I think it's that they are just happy to see a superhero in a proper costume, regardless of it's quality, doing super powered/vigilante stuff, again, regardless of the quality.

But that's just one man's view.

OR, other people just find different things "grating" than you. I don't see "cheese" as an inherent bad thing. AT ALL. Not when it knows what it's trying to be, and ESPECIALLY when talking about people who fly around in tights saving people, drawn from a medium made popular by/for children. Some of my all-time favorite shows are highly cheesy. INCLUDING your beloved Farscape. The cheese-factor was high in that one, my friend! Both in writing and visuals. And I loved it, because the characters popped and the imagination factor was high. But here's the thing about the characters in the Berlanti shows - some characters are made for adults. These characters were not, but CAN be enjoyed by certain adults who aren't looking to take everything so seriously. I mean, you've seen the writing in older comics, right? You know my thoughts on a certain interpretation of our favorite character. I find EVERYTHING about that interpretation (minus one awesome costume and fx) to be far more "grating" than anything I've seen from Supergirl in its entire run. What you find to be "forced adorkableness" in the heroine's characterization, I find to be a straight-up charming throwback performance. Same goes for Superman, who is a combination of so many things I've loved about past Supermen I can't even count. Seriously, my Mom's visiting from out of town this week, and we were both grinning from ear-to-ear watching their interactions throughout the episode. It was pure cheesy magic, like watching a live-action cartoon.

The crux of why I still manage to enjoy The Flash despite its repetitive writing, cheesy dialogue and poor handling of certain female characters, is because it has a TON of heart and - to me - captures the spirit of the comics more than any version of it I've seen. Same goes for Supergirl (though thankfully, it treats its female characters MUCH better than the other show, which is also a huge plus in my eyes, and VERY few CBM screen properties do that to my satisfaction). There is also an underlying pathos in the lead characters of both shows that has moved me on more than one occasion.

Enjoying something despite it's flaws is NOT the same as admitting you only like it for shallow reasons.

 

[Greens]

Flickchick will die braver than most.

 

[flickchick85]

Flickchick will die braver than most.

That was a given.

 

[dude stannis]

OR, other people just find different things "grating" than you.

So you mean to tell me that people are entitled to enjoy different versions and interpretations of material that's existed for over 70 years? SHOCK. HORROR.

 

[Greens]

Poppycock.

 

[flickchick85]

So you mean to tell me that people are entitled to enjoy different versions and interpretations of material that's existed for over 70 years? SHOCK. HORROR.

Try not to faint!

 

[dude stannis]

Try not to faint!

I won't faint, but I will keep it in mind next time you try and rain on my parade.

 

[flickchick85]

I don't rain on parades. That's gross.

 

[dude stannis]

Anyway getting back to how awful Berlanti's shows are.

 

[flickchick85]

Arrow remains The Worst.

 

[dude stannis]

I can't imagine it was ever in any position not to be.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

OR, other people just find different things "grating" than you. I don't see "cheese" as an inherent bad thing. AT ALL. Not when it knows what it's trying to be, and ESPECIALLY when talking about people who fly around in tights saving people, drawn from a medium made popular by/for children. Some of my all-time favorite shows are highly cheesy. INCLUDING your beloved Farscape. The cheese-factor was high in that one, my friend! Both in writing and visuals. And I loved it, because the characters popped and the imagination factor was high. But here's the thing about the characters in the Berlanti shows - some characters are made for adults. These characters were not, but CAN be enjoyed by certain adults who aren't looking to take everything so seriously. I mean, you've seen the writing in older comics, right? You know my thoughts on a certain interpretation of our favorite character. I find EVERYTHING about that interpretation (minus one awesome costume and fx) to be far more "grating" than anything I've seen from Supergirl in its entire run. What you find to be "forced adorkableness" in the heroine's characterization, I find to be a straight-up charming throwback performance. Same goes for Superman, who is a combination of so many things I've loved about past Supermen I can't even count. Seriously, my Mom's visiting from out of town this week, and we were both grinning from ear-to-ear watching their interactions throughout the episode. It was pure cheesy magic, like watching a live-action cartoon.

The crux of why I still manage to enjoy The Flash despite its repetitive writing, cheesy dialogue and poor handling of certain female characters, is because it has a TON of heart and - to me - captures the spirit of the comics more than any version of it I've seen. Same goes for Supergirl (though thankfully, it treats its female characters MUCH better than the other show, which is also a huge plus in my eyes, and VERY few CBM screen properties do that to my satisfaction).

Enjoying something despite it's flaws is NOT the same as admitting you only like it for shallow reasons.

Which is why I said it was one man's opinion and not trying to say I have some stranglehold on the truth or something.

But yes... It's a taste thing flick. Having Superman and Supergirl meet up to save a crashing space plane and have light banter while doing it? Absolutely fine for me, hell it's exactly what I would want... Having Kara say "I used to change his diapers"? Stupid and cheesy as all get out for me. Superman arriving at the DEO confident as hell and getting respect from the rank and file members? Awesome sauce. Winn acting like a 13 year old girl meeting Lady Gaga? Poor writing. Let's not even get me started on anything involving Cat Grant, but as someone that read the Byrne run where the Grant character was introduced... Yeah I don't even recognize the character at all but again that wouldn't be a problem if she were consistently presented as an actual three dimensional character and not some lazy caricature. Again, you are right, grating is in the eye of the beholder, I'm just giving my opinion but that's how I see it flick. Interesting too that you say, "Like a live action cartoon". Well... If I wanted to watch a cartoon version of these characters I would do just that, and have, and will in the future. No offense but I tend to fairly or unfairly judge a cartoon version by a different set of standards, and that's pointing out that even judging by those standards I already mentioned that animated fair currently and of the recent past comes off far better.

Look there's something about bringing these characters into three dimensions on our collective flatscreens that makes doing them as a "Live Action Cartoon" as seeming as a disservice. Doing a live action version of these characters in a manner like unto a silver age comic book will always seem off to me.

Is it working for you flick? Great. But let's not pretend that you don't have assumptions as to why it doesn't work for me anymore than I have assumptions about why it works for you or others. It's all opinions after all, even opinions about other's opinions.

And let's get the elephant in the room out in the open. I get that the DCEU films are not your cup of tea but outside of talking about my opinions of others the criticism of these shows has little if anything to do with the current film adaptations. As a comic fan, as a Superman fan ect. I judge these things generally not in comparison to something else but on the merits they themselves display. Thus my harsh opinion of say LOIS AND CLARK, or SMALLVILLE, both which preceded the DCEU and the CW shows. Whether those films existed or not I would still think the writing for Supergirl and it's dialog was atrociously done and that it's tone was forced and, yes, grating to my sensibilities as an adult fan. Which as I have stated many times on the hype isn't about "lightness/darkness/whimsy/gritty" at all but simply excellence of execution which for me means at least solid casting and writing for the characters as I judge it... And as I judge it, the shows (and again... equal opportunity here AoS as well) are found lacking on those very basic elements. The shows could easily have the tone of say, JLU, and I would be fine. That show had tons of lighthearted moments. In fact that's what I find so disappointing about the TV shows. How can a an actual cartoon like JLU be LESS cartoonish than a show like Flash and Supergirl? It's mindboggling to me that such is my opinion, but there it is.

As pointed out before... If this were indeed 1992 and these CW shows and AoS were on TV with the Xena/Hercules shows I would say they were pretty good for their times. But it's not 1992, it's 2016 and I can't help but find them terribly mediocre on their best days and my opinion is that, yeah, they are the bad kind of cheese.

 

[flickchick85]

Which is why I said it was one man's opinion and not trying to say I have some stranglehold on the truth or something.

But yes... It's a taste thing flick. Having Superman and Supergirl meet up to save a crashing space plane and have light banter while doing it? Absolutely fine for me, hell it's exactly what I would want... Having Kara say "I used to change his diapers"? Stupid and cheesy as all get out for me. Superman arriving at the DEO confident as hell and getting respect from the rank and file members? Awesome sauce. Winn acting like a 13 year old girl meeting Lady Gaga? Poor writing. Let's not even get me started on anything involving Cat Grant, but as someone that read the Byrne run where the Grant character was introduced... Yeah I don't even recognize the character at all but again that wouldn't be a problem if she were consistently presented as an actual three dimensional character and not some lazy caricature. Again, you are right, grating is in the eye of the beholder, I'm just giving my opinion but that's how I see it flick. Interesting too that you say, "Like a live action cartoon". Well... If I wanted to watch a cartoon version of these characters I would do just that, and have, and will in the future. No offense but I tend to fairly or unfairly judge a cartoon version by a different set of standards, and that's pointing out that even judging by those standards I already mentioned that animated fair currently and of the recent past comes off far better.

Look there's something about bringing these characters into three dimensions on our collective flatscreens that makes doing them as a "Live Action Cartoon" as seeming as a disservice. Doing a live action version of these characters in a manner like unto a silver age comic book will always seem off to me.

Is it working for you flick? Great. But let's not pretend that you don't have assumptions as to why it doesn't work for me anymore than I have assumptions about why it works for you or others. It's all opinions after all, even opinions about other's opinions.

And let's get the elephant in the room out in the open. I get that the DCEU films are not your cup of tea but outside of talking about my opinions of others the criticism of these shows has little if anything to do with the current film adaptations. As a comic fan, as a Superman fan ect. I judge these things generally not in comparison to something else but on the merits they themselves display. Thus my harsh opinion of say LOIS AND CLARK, or SMALLVILLE, both which preceded the DCEU and the CW shows. Whether those films existed or not I would still think the writing for Supergirl and it's dialog was atrociously done and that it's tone was forced and, yes, grating to my sensibilities as an adult fan. Which as I have stated many times on the hype isn't about "lightness/darkness/whimsy/gritty" at all but simply excellence of execution which for me means at least solid casting and writing for the characters as I judge it... And as I judge it, the shows (and again... equal opportunity here AoS as well) are found lacking on those very basic elements. The shows could easily have the tone of say, JLU, and I would be fine. That show had tons of lighthearted moments. In fact that's what I find so disappointing about the TV shows. How can a an actual cartoon like JLU be LESS cartoonish than a show like Flash and Supergirl? It's mindboggling to me that such is my opinion, but there it is.

As pointed out before... If this were indeed 1992 and these CW shows and AoS were on TV with the Xena/Hercules shows I would say they were pretty good for their times. But it's not 1992, it's 2016 and I can't help but find them terribly mediocre on their best days and my opinion is that, yeah, they are the bad kind of cheese.

I could never stand Xena/Hercules, lol.

Anyway, it's obvious we'll never understand why the other feels the way they do, so I'll just say I feel like there's "good cheese" and "bad cheese" in TV, and I define the difference usually by when a show knows what it's doing or not. The reason Arrow is completely awful to me is because (among other infuriating creative choices) it takes that cheese and applies it to a character who's trying to be all dark and gritty for some reason. And that just straight-up doesn't work for me at all, because it comes across like the show doesn't know how cheesy it is. The characters of The Flash and Supergirl, on the other hand, are tailor-made for that approach, and that's why they, for the most part, work for me. They whole-heartedly embrace the whimsy inherent to their characters and worlds, and I can get on board with that because they're self-aware.

BTW, Winn acting like a 13-year-old fangirl around Superman wasn't "bad writing" because its' 100% in-character for Winn, a grown man who had a desk covered with action figures and always went into fangirl mode at the mere mention Superman in the past. So while you may not LIKE that behavior and find it annoying (and in fact, I do too), it doesn't make it "bad writing" when it's true to the tone of the series and organic to the character that's been established. And mom and I loved that diapers line, so there.

You'll never find me disagreeing with you on AoS, however.

 

[Slade W]

IMO, Arrow at its peak was the best Berlanti show. Even last season, which is considered to be by far the worst, has most of its episode threads filled with positive comments and high ratings out of 10. It was around episode 16 where it started to go downhill.

 

[jokesonm3]

The Olicity fanbase is the sole core numero uno head honcho of the problem of Arrow as a whole, get rid of the virus and the entire organism might survive after all.