*The New Superhero Cinematic Civil War Thread - Part 61

[flickchick85]

I am surprised how much I enjoyed Thunderbolts. It feels like an MCU movie...and yet it doesnt. There's something offbeat about it which I really liked. I felt engaged throughout the whole movie and I went into this movie asking "Why are we getting this movie with these characters now?" Thunderbolts always seemed like such a random film to have in the midst of this slate leading up to Doomsday and Secret Wars and, well, the movie answered it for me very satisfyingly and by the end, i now know why we needed this movie. Well done.

I am now eager to see this team again, I didnt think I'd see myself feeling that way.

Also damn, they did Olga Kurylenko dirty, man.

I think the exact reason it mostly worked for me is because it seemed genuinely more interested in the story it was telling for these characters than what it was obligatorily setting up. That seems to be what wins me over in the MCU these days - the movies that are less interested in fitting into the "bigger story" are the ones I manage to enjoy now. I'm just totally checked out of "The Universe" of it all at this point.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Spoiler

I think it's another Captain Marvel situation where the scene isn't actually in Doomsday. I expect Doomsday will have a scene with the F4 arriving to the 616 Earth, but it will be shown from someone else's POV.

As for the F4 movie, there's absolutely no way they're ending their first outing on a total failure to save their world. Not a chance. They NEED that movie to be a crowd pleaser, not a downer. So I think they win, but they "sacrifice themselves" to do so, and end up in another universe. Basically like Monica Rambeau.

Spoiler

The movie could end that way, but the big issue I see is this Saga has no stakes. Why should your audience fear an incursion? You can say end of the world and yada yada yada, but pictures are worth a 1000 words. So Doomsday needs to send that message early on, and MCU Earth won't be the first to go. So someone's world needs to die immediately. If it ain't the MCU Earth, your only other choices are FF's, the X-Men we know are in it, or if Doom is from another universe from all the above, maybe Doom's. That's why I am not so quick to send the FF to the MCU just yet. Doomsday will need that big opening scene.

 

[Spider-Fan]

The “2nd best post-Endgame MCU film” take is certainly the new “best DC film since TDK”.

And not just because of it’s incessant use but bc the bar is so hilariously low that it means the film is just fine lol

And it’s not like they were knocking it out of the park left and right before Endgame either

There have been winners post Endgame, but being the 2nd best one of the newer movies does mean something. It means it's one of the stronger movies they have done recently. One can scoff at the notion, but I dont devalue the sentiment

 

[flickchick85]

Spoiler

The movie could end that way, but the big issue I see is this Saga has no stakes. Why should your audience fear an incursion? You can say end of the world and yada yada yada, but pictures are worth a 1000 words. So Doomsday needs to send that message early on, and MCU Earth won't be the first to go. So someone's world needs to die immediately. If it ain't the MCU Earth, your only other choices are FF's, the X-Men we know are in it, or if Doom is from another universe from all the above, maybe Doom's. That's why I am not so quick to send the FF to the MCU just yet. Doomsday will need that big opening scene.

I don't know how to say this nicely, but I don't get the impression they give a s*** about "stakes" anymore. They're bringing back everyone who "died" or the audience already said farewell to. These upcoming movies seem like little more than an excuse to parade around everyone's nostalgic faves, and that's all they need to do to make money, as D&W demonstrated with its absolute non-existent consequences.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I don't know how to say this nicely, but I don't get the impression they give a s*** about "stakes" anymore. These upcoming movies seem like little more than an excuse to parade around everyone's nostalgic faves, and that's all they need to do to make money, as D&W demonstrated with its absolute non-existence consequences.

Spoiler

If they don't set up stakes and show the audience why they should care, then the movie is going to fail to interest people. But usually, they open the Avenger movies with some type of big sequence. Endgame was a tad different cause that opened with a quieter sequence, but they can't do that here. They need the SHIELD base implodes or the siege on the Hydra base or Thor's people are massacred opening.

 

[Shinobi Shaw]

You both have valid points.

They more than likely won’t destroy the FF’s world in their reboot movie because like Flick said, they don’t want it to be a complete downer.

However, to add fuel to the fire and to show what Doom is capable of and why he’s an Avengers level threat, I totally see them having him cause an incursion in either the FF’s alternate reality or the Foxverse.

Either way, one (or both?) of those worlds are doomed. No pun.

 

[flickchick85]

Spoiler

If they don't set up stakes and show the audience why they should care, then the movie is going to fail to interest people. But usually, they open the Avenger movies with some type of big sequence. Endgame was a tad different cause that opened with a quieter sequence, but they can't do that here. They need the SHIELD base implodes or the siege on the Hydra base or Thor's people are massacred opening.

Oh I'm sure they'll open the movie with a mass murder of an Earth the audience doesn't care about. That's whatever. The Foxverse has no continuity anyway, so maybe that one. But like I said, they didn't need any real stakes to interest people in D&W, and they won't need them here.

 

[kguillou]

@flickchick85 makes a compelling point, on the one hand F4 does NEED to be a four quadrant crowd pleaser and that means making sure the audience leaves the theater exhilerated and wanting to go see it again and again. Ending the film on a downer risks that.

But @Spider-Fan is also right, there needs to be stakes going into Doomsday. We need to see what these incursions can do. And, i dont know, it could just be the usual trailer misdirect but there is something foreboding about the F4 trailers and it seems to be telegraphing that their story will not end happily.

I'm torn.

 

[Spider-Fan]

@flickchick85 makes a compelling point, on the one hand F4 does NEED to be a four quadrant crowd pleaser and that means making sure the audience leaves the theater exhilerated and wanting to go see it again and again. Ending the film on a downer risks that.

But @Spider-Fan is also right, there needs to be stakes going into Doomsday. We need to see what these incursions can do. And, i dont know, it could just be the usual trailer misdirect but there is something foreboding about the F4 trailers and it seems to be telegraphing that their story will not end happily.

I'm torn.

I see this playing out only 1 of 2 ways:

Spoiler

1 - The FF win and Doomsday opens up with their world being destroyed in an incursion

2 - The FF have a First Avenger ending where they save their world but end up in the MCU and Doomsday opens with Doom's world dying

It's going to be 1 of these 2 scenarios. I am thinking it's #1 personally. But we will find out in July!

 

[Shinobi Shaw]

Or…

The Ultimate Nullifier wipes out Galactus and the FF’s reality and then they have to find their way to 616 and join the New Avengers.

But that would be too depressing.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Or…

The Ultimate Nullifier wipes out Galactus and the FF’s reality and then they have to find their way to 616 and join the New Avengers.

But that would be too depressing.

Spoiler

That....would be the worst ending possible lol! Your heroes here destroy their own universe. That's a failure of cosmic proportions. Ya may as well Batgirl it at that point cause the FF have no credibility there. That's like....losing to Gillberg bad

 

[Shinobi Shaw]

Spoiler

That....would be the worst ending possible lol! Your heroes here destroy their own universe. That's a failure of cosmic proportions. Ya may as well Batgirl it at that point cause the FF have no credibility there. That's like....losing to Gillberg bad

You wanted raised stakes



Nah for real, that would be awful.

 

[kguillou]

But also you have to give the
F4 a reason to stay in the 616 universe indefinitely right? If their world isnt destroyed then they're just going to be trying to go back. Presumably the F4 are going to mainstays in the MCU going forward.

I think either way though, F4: First Steps is going to have somewhat of a downer ending leading into Doomsday and give them a reason to want to go after Doom.

 

[Sithborg]

Now hear me out for the FF

Spoiler

The entirety of them coming to the main universe is in the end credits. Don't tell me they wouldn't do that. [looks at Cap Marvel]

 

[Mysteryman]

After Kong finishes whipping their asses…

View attachment 131622

Fun fact: 1976 Kong STILL scares the sh** out of me.

The King SHOULD still scare you!

 

[AndrewGilkison]

Galactus and Silver Surfer feel like a red herring. If the FF's universe is destroyed I don't think they will be the ones who do it.

 

[Babillygunn]

And one more thing:

Valentina Allegra de la Fontaine is one of the BEST fictional names ever. Right up there on the fictional name Mt Rushmore between Johnny Blaze and Whisper A'Daire.

Blaze ain’t even the best fictional Johnny name. That award goes to:

 

[Deck Rickard]

And one more thing:

Valentina Allegra de la Fontaine is one of the BEST fictional names ever. Right up there on the fictional name Mt Rushmore between Johnny Blaze and Whisper A'Daire.

A few others to add:

John Matrix
Anastasia Steele
Marion Cobretti
Charly Baltimore
Michael Morbius
Lincoln Hawk
Jericho Cane
Sean Archer
Stacker Pentecost
Chuck Slaughter
Mason Storm
Cade Yeager

 

[Drizzle]

To be honest with you Drizzy...

I actually liked how abruptly it ended and the whole Val springing the surprise press conference on them, introducing them as the New Avengers. What I didn't like though in hindsight was the time jump that we saw in the post credits. That's just a lazy way to write them as this already established team and we missed out on their growth as a team. But the bigger picture is getting to Robert Downey Doom and Secret Wars, so who gives a damn I guess.

And man, I didn't even see Wanda trending, but I had Magneto on muted words because I heard that he would be in it! All this damn fake news from these social media scoopers.

I liked the press conference and all that but I wouldn't have minded an extra 10 minutes added to the runtime. Five minutes between the press conference to the time the credits roll just to show a little more of a reaction to the "New Avengers" and the other five could have been used to show us what Ghost, Bucky and Red Guardian saw in Void's shadow realm.

And I have no idea what Wanda trending was about. Could have been Wanda Sykes or Wanda from Fairly Oddparents for all I know.

So you only rank it behind the other actual movies of the post-Endgame era.

I've thought they've mostly ranged from good to mediocre with the exceptions of Brave New World and Quantumania but to your point, even the ones I like function more like episodes of the big MCU series than individual movies for the most part. Thunderbolts, Guardians 3 and Shang-Chi are the ones that stand out the most from the others.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I only watched BNW thus far once. Thunderbolts* I plan on seeing again at least 1 more time theatrically. There is a major Summer lull for me as I am only really interested in MI:FR and 28 Years Later for the next like month and a half. Also needed to see The Accountant 2. But I have no interest in Lilo & Stich or How to Train Your Dragon remakes, or that awful looking Karate Kid movie. I likely will watch Ballerina, but I don't have much confidence in it given troubles surrounding it. So it's really light for me until Superman and FF.

 

[Ninjablade]

@flickchick85 makes a compelling point, on the one hand F4 does NEED to be a four quadrant crowd pleaser and that means making sure the audience leaves the theater exhilerated and wanting to go see it again and again. Ending the film on a downer risks that.

But @Spider-Fan is also right, there needs to be stakes going into Doomsday. We need to see what these incursions can do. And, i dont know, it could just be the usual trailer misdirect but there is something foreboding about the F4 trailers and it seems to be telegraphing that their story will not end happily.

I'm torn.

They did show the results of an incursion in MOM, so unless they feel super compelled to reestablish that, I wouldn't be surprised if they just treat it like Xandar and it's only just mentioned briefly.

I fully expect First Steps ending to be almost exactly like The Marvels where it ends with them saving their universe, but lost in the cosmos. Hell, won't be shocked if that post-credit scene is the same as this one from their POV. Only thing that surprises me is that they're going to have them joining the main MCU world first. I would've assumed that everyone would be converging on the FOX-Men universe to make it easy.

 

[Spider-Fan]

They did show the results of an incursion in MOM, so unless they feel super compelled to reestablish that, I wouldn't be surprised if they just treat it like Xandar and it's only just mentioned briefly.

I fully expect First Steps ending to be almost exactly like The Marvels where it ends with them saving their universe, but lost in the cosmos. Hell, won't be shocked if that post-credit scene is the same as this one from their POV. Only thing that surprises me is that they're going to have them joining the main MCU world first. I would've assumed that everyone would be converging on the FOX-Men universe to make it easy.

Spoiler

I dont think showing a dead universe once in MoM is enough. You actually need to see what happens during an incursion for the stakes to matter. Otherwise it's just going to be "Oh no, save the universe " cliche stuff and no one will care

 

[Shinobi Shaw]

Two other real quick points about Thunderbolts* that’s on my mind:

- I thought Sentry’s actual costume and overall look was dope.

- Sam can forgive all these supervillains but is ready to sue a fellow Avenger for calling his team New Avengers?!

I was ready to slap him.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Two other real quick points about Thunderbolts* that’s on my mind:

- I thought Sentry’s actual costume and overall look was dope.

- Sam can forgive all these supervillains but is ready to sue a fellow Avenger for calling his team New Avengers?!

I was ready to slap him.

Spoiler

It's also weird to me in that what claim does Sam really have? Yeah he was on the original team (not an OG one but he was no less on the team at a certain point), but does that give him the right to just make a New Avengers? This team came together organically, and yeah Val named them that to save her own skin, but they got Bucky on this team. He def has credentials as well. It's so weird, lol. Feels like we will have 2 Avengers and they'll feud like the fire departments in Gangs of New York where they will come to a fire and end up fighting each other for jurisdiction instead lol

 

[kguillou]

Spoiler

It's also weird to me in that what claim does Sam really have? Yeah he was on the original team (not an OG one but he was no less on the team at a certain point), but does that give him the right to just make a New Avengers? This team came together organically, and yeah Val named them that to save her own skin, but they got Bucky on this team. He def has credentials as well. It's so weird, lol. Feels like we will have 2 Avengers and they'll feud like the fire departments in Gangs of New York where they will come to a fire and end up fighting each other for jurisdiction instead lol

I think its not so much Bucky that Sam has a problem with. Sam likely has a SERIOUS problem with a group of mercenaries backed by a highly corrupt individual taking the name “Avengers.”