The Official Black Panther Thread

[Donald Thomas]

Aloha,
At this point someone needs to do a complete breakdown of what Wakanda looks like. At one time I thought they they lived above ground in traditional attire but had all of the technology under ground.Now I'm not sure what Wakanda actually looks like.Wakanda is supposed to be the African equivalent to Eureka- but we have yet to fully appreciate that.
Now that Vibranium has been rendered inert(for the time being) what makes Wakanda a military force?I know they took billions of Dr. Dooms money so they're not hurting but how they rebuild their society without vibranium at the core should be interesting.
Okay in order of best to worst volumes of BP.
McGregor, Kirby, Priest, Hudlin Mareberry(sp?)

How would you rate them?

Spidey rules except in Wakanda

 

[hippie_hunter]

Hudlin deserves to be dead last. Maberry has potential, but it's squandered by the fact that the roots of his run are all from Hudlin.

 

[T'Jai]

Aloha,
At this point someone needs to do a complete breakdown of what Wakanda looks like. At one time I thought they they lived above ground in traditional attire but had all of the technology under ground.Now I'm not sure what Wakanda actually looks like.Wakanda is supposed to be the African equivalent to Eureka- but we have yet to fully appreciate that.
Now that Vibranium has been rendered inert(for the time being) what makes Wakanda a military force?I know they took billions of Dr. Dooms money so they're not hurting but how they rebuild their society without vibranium at the core should be interesting.
Okay in order of best to worst volumes of BP.
McGregor, Kirby, Priest, Hudlin Mareberry(sp?)

How would you rate them?

Spidey rules except in Wakanda

they actually gave most if not all of that money away...

 

[Donald Thomas]

they actually gave most if not all of that money away...

Aloha,
Where did you read that? Symkaria owed Wakanda billions and Shuri renegotiated their loan. In the beginning of part 6,Declun-The Broker tells Doom that Hundreds of Billions were taken from his accounts.I didn't see where they gave it away anywhere.
Spidey rules except in Wakanda

 

[T'Jai]

searching through now but it is in the same issue where they take his money...

 

[T'Jai]

searching through now but it is in the same issue where they take his money...

and I found it, a scan for verification

 

[Varient]

Didn't like the end of DoomWar,... BUT, I can deal.
Wakanda may now be written as a friendlier place, more cosmopolitan, And will have to either sell tech or find other exports.

Who's gonna be the standin Panther while Shuri takes a break?

 

[Donald Thomas]

and I found it, a scan for verification

Aloha,
Good call.
Spidey rules except in Wakanda

 

[T'Jai]

Didn't like the end of DoomWar,... BUT, I can deal.
Wakanda may now be written as a friendlier place, more cosmopolitan, And will have to either sell tech or find other exports.

Who's gonna be the standin Panther while Shuri takes a break?

My thoughts on DoomWar and possible behind the scenes action/s...

You know going back through reading Mr. Mayberry's comments and looking at the first couple issues I have to say the changes and lack of promised pay off that started with issue three REAK of editorial interjection. That being said Mayberry would keep quiet about it because we have all seen what happens when an employee Out's his boss, especially in this medium...

Giving it further thought it would line up that Hickman decided he wanted Doom for his next FF arc and that is when the story shifted to reflect Doom's next appearance. And while my initial view of Doomwar was far less than complimentary, if you go from 3-6 and disregard all the death threats the panther crew made towards Doom (ones I believe Mayberry fully intended to carry out) you come to a realization.

The Panther Clan were put in an untenable situation where acting on their desires/threats would have had far more long reaching negative political ramifications. In light of that realization they took the high road and acted as true political leaders and heroes should.

Was it satisfying when you take into account the many injuries and insults heaped upon the Panther Clan by Von Doom?

Not at all... But this seriously looks to me like a case of a writer being put in an untenable situation. Yet in my opinion he figured out a way if not to finish as he wanted; at least to let his Protagonists show a significant level of maturation, make a strong moral showing, and have a well publicized (throughout the Marvel U) win against arguably the most dominant Villain in the world.

And the end where every one is complaining about the Heroes helping to rebuild Wakanda, Every one of those heroes has interacted on a personal level with T'Challa or Storm and they are really doing nothing more than heavy lifting (with the possible exceptions of Reed and Magneto)while being overseen by the royal family and Wakandan personnel...

 

[Anubis]

What did you expect them to do? Kill Doom in a mini that pretty much nobody was buying?

 

[T'Jai]

What did you expect them to do? Kill Doom in a mini that pretty much nobody was buying?

Actually I think that's what Mayberry expected to do...

in all honesty it is the only way the Panthers could have come out even/on top story wise...

 

[Donald Thomas]

My thoughts on DoomWar and possible behind the scenes action/s...

Aloha,
Ultimately-Doom, T'Challa and Namor are leaders of sovereign nations. Secret assassinations maybe-but outright killing Doom would call for international action against Wakanda.As Shuri said-as much as she would LIKE to kill him, she, T'Challa and Storm choose not to-taking a higher and more diplomatic road. Not to mentioned she robbed him blind
Klaws of the Panther is next and it has Shuri on the cover. Notice the spelling of claws.
What did you think of Flags of our Father?
Spidey rules except in Wakanda

 

[T'Jai]

Aloha,
Ultimately-Doom, T'Challa and Namor are leaders of sovereign nations. Secret assassinations maybe-but outright killing Doom would call for international action against Wakanda.As Shuri said-as much as she would LIKE to kill him, she, T'Challa and Storm choose not to-taking a higher and more diplomatic road. Not to mentioned she robbed him blindKlaws of the Panther is next and it has Shuri on the cover. Notice the spelling of claw.
Spidey rules except in Wakanda

Ummmmm that's what I said...
Here in fact:

The Panther Clan were put in an untenable situation where acting on their desires/threats would have had far more long reaching negative political ramifications. In light of that realization they took the high road and acted as true political leaders and heroes should.

so....

 

[Donald Thomas]

Ummmmm that's what I said...
Here in fact:
so....

Aloha,
I was agreeing with you in response to why not kill Doom.I don't think Maberry ever had that option.Namor, Doom and T'Challa all had a part in DoomWar, so the solution to DoomWar couldn't be a slug fest or blood bath like Secret Invasion. I want to know when does vibranium get its properties back? I can't believe that T'Challa was able to make it inert forever.Speaking of which- Is T'Challa the new Sorcerer Supreme or what?
Spidey rules except in Wakanda

 

[Red Mask]

My thoughts on DoomWar and possible behind the scenes action/s...

People were complaining about the heroes helping to rebuild Wakanda? What kind of friends would they be if they didn't help? For sure, they wouldn't do so much to help less fortunate African countries.

 

[T'Jai]

People were complaining about the heroes helping to rebuild Wakanda? What kind of friends would they be if they didn't help? For sure, they wouldn't do so much to help less fortunate African countries.

It was more a suggestion that the "Great White West" was putting it's hands on yet another African Nation and would somehow influence and or affect Wakandan policy...

 

[DarKush]

I've read a lot of Hudlin hate over the years, but I don't see what RH did that deserved such contempt. I mainly got into BP on his run.

I don't think his stories were perfect, but I think he had a good take on T'Challa and he was willing to make him the POV character, unlike Priest, who used Ross to tell the story, from the books I read. That storytelling device didn't work for me, for one because I thought Ross was annoying, and two, it fell back into the telling black stories through white eyes kind of deal (i.e. Ghosts of MS, MS Burning, Cry Freedom, etc.). I was happy that T'Challa was front and center. Also, RH made T'Challa proud to be black, proud of his country, and in a functional relationship with a black woman. These are things rarely seen in comics, or mass media it seems, and I think it pissed off some of the fanboys, particularly some of the white ones because white folks weren't the center of the BP books or important characters in the BP books under Hudlin. The Storm-BP marriage even got a little mainstream attention, and when was the last time, when was the first time that Priest or any previous BP writer done that? Or got a bestselling writer like Eric Jerome Dickey to do a miniseries? Or an animated series? Not a guest spot, but a whole series?

Aaron's run wasn't bad. I enjoy pretty much everything he touches, however, I noticed on his run that the Skrull commander was the main character. He properly showed the Wakandans kicking ass, but once again, T'Challa became a guest star in his own book.

I was liking what RH did with "Deadliest of the Species" because I felt he was correcting some of the issues I had with his previous run. Namely, I felt there was too much telling how great BP was without showing it. I wanted better villains and higher stakes. RH gave us that. He also gave us a big shake up with Shuri assuming the mantle, which generated some controversy and hopefully a little buzz. Maberry followed through, building an interesting political thriller with his "Power" arc. I think DW largely squandered the good climax he had been building toward.

By making the story about Doom and relegating T'Challa to a bunker, it put T'Challa in a secondary role again. It should've been a battle of equals but Doom pretty much bested T'Challa at every turn. And in the finale, Doom lectures T'Challa and T'Challa agrees with his conclusions. WTF?

Also, Maberry promised some big payback scene or scenes for Storm, there were none. He promised that the shadow physics he had T'Challa create would have big repercussions. To be fair, it did, but the way it was written it was so blah. Also, he promised a lot of kickass violence, but that was mostly off screen. The X-Men, FF, and Deadpool added nothing to the story and ultimately served to take away screen time from the Panther family. This should have been their story, their moment, their big event, but it got all diluted with too many guest stars, too much focus on Doom, and a weak conclusion.

I had been looking forward to watching T'Challa beat the holy crap out of Doom for what he had done to his country, his family, his wife, but T'Challa gives a kumbaya speech instead?

I think Maberry did a disservice to BP. I am seriously considering not buying Klaws of the Panther.

For all the Hudlin critics, I challenge them to read Flags of our Fathers and compare that to DoomWar and then tell me that RH sucks or that it isn't as good as, and IMO, superior to DoomWar. He's not perfect, but he does have a grasp and respect for the BP character that shines through. With Maberry, its now a little suspect for me.

 

[DarKush]

Aloha,
I was agreeing with you in response to why not kill Doom.I don't think Maberry ever had that option.Namor, Doom and T'Challa all had a part in DoomWar, so the solution to DoomWar couldn't be a slug fest or blood bath like Secret Invasion. I want to know when does vibranium get its properties back? I can't believe that T'Challa was able to make it inert forever.Speaking of which- Is T'Challa the new Sorcerer Supreme or what?
Spidey rules except in Wakanda

I know that Doom wasn't going to die. But why talk about a Nowhere Room and not use it? At the end of the story, Doom should've been imprisoned in it. But of course he would escape at a later time.

DW was ultimately so unsatisfying because Maberry was skittish about allowing T'Challa to have proper payback. Instead T'Challa was told he was arrogant and didn't need the crutch of vibranium anymore after getting choked out. It's strange that after the decision was made to make Doom the main character, Maberry failed to actually give him an arc. There was no real journey for Doom. What exactly did he learn? How did DoomWar change him? It didn't.

The lesson was for the Panthers, and Doom was the teacher. I thought that was poor storytelling. Which is a shame because the Power arc really seemed to be setting up something interesting.

I wish Marvel/Maberry had the guts to have titled the mini, "BP: DoomWar" and ran it concurrently with a still ongoing BP title, using the title to fill in or expand on some of the gaps in DW. Perhaps that way, both Doom and T'Challa, not to mention Storm and Shuri, might get a chance to get more development instead of the pronouncements that often were substituted for character development instead.

 

[DarKush]

It was more a suggestion that the "Great White West" was putting it's hands on yet another African Nation and would somehow influence and or affect Wakandan policy...

I'm not going to lie and say that I didn't wonder if there was subtext in the closing scenes of DW. On one hand it made perfect sense for the heroes to be helping out, but on the other hand, I noticed that T'Challa, Storm, and Shuri were standing around while others did the work of rebuilding Wakanda, mainly the white heroes. I can't remember if War Machine was in the mix or not.

Where were the Wakandans? Why weren't the Panthers front and center, hands on rebuilding their country? Why the reluctance of showing blacks doing for themselves? The closing scene relegated the Panthers to the sideline again. The only saving grace was at least T'Challa had his arm around Storm. The marriage has survived one more mini at least.

Perhaps the closing scene was supposed to be a sign that the royal family at least had dropped the 'xenophobia' that was one of the causes for their downfall. Which wasn't properly explained to me either. How did xenophobia exactly weaken Wakanda? I mean, the Desturi worked with, for Doom, an outsider. Panther married a non-Wakandan and has worked with foreigners for years. I wonder what 'xenophobia' means in the context of the Panther. Does it mean not being Eurocentric, which is of course what everyone should be? Is that what's taken for xenophobia in the Marvel universe?

 

[DarKush]

Aloha,
Ultimately-Doom, T'Challa and Namor are leaders of sovereign nations. Secret assassinations maybe-but outright killing Doom would call for international action against Wakanda.As Shuri said-as much as she would LIKE to kill him, she, T'Challa and Storm choose not to-taking a higher and more diplomatic road. Not to mentioned she robbed him blind
Klaws of the Panther is next and it has Shuri on the cover. Notice the spelling of claws.
What did you think of Flags of our Father?
Spidey rules except in Wakanda

I wonder if T'Challa had made a case before the UN and revealed Doom's hand in the Desturi coup at least that the international response might not have been different?

I mean, how is fighting a series of fights across the globe and moving a strike force into Symarkia, even if their leaders were bribed, going to look anyway? And the heroes seemed far more suspicious of T'Challa than Doom, who was already using his soldiers, or creatures, to attack places. I think that international political angle was poorly conceived.

I give credit to Maberry for having Shuri, etc. wipe out Doom's bank account. But turning public opinion against him, which really shouldn't be that hard, could've been another way for T'Challa to hit Doom on all levels and justify the actions he would have to take against Doom. I credit Maberry as well for throwing in a line that Doom had blocked tracking the vibranium, so T'Challa couldn't successfully argue that he had stolen it. Then again, T'Challa might not want to do that anyway, it might inspire his other enemies to strike.

But showing the world that Doom had tried to kill him, had tried to kill Shuri, had assaulted his wife, had killed his uncle, and engineered a coup against him, I think that could've been good enough to get some nations either on T'Challa's side or shut them up if he wanted to go at Doom full force.

Of course, Maberry strengthened the case against a full invasion with the coup. There was a lot of rebuilding, not only of property, but of public trust, and in the Wakandan military, so at the point of DW the Wakandan military was in no shape to mount an invasion.

About taking the high road, I think that was a cop out. I would argue that this 'noble' option comes more readily because T'Challa is black, and there is a fear of black violence, perhaps subconscious, and so the best option for blacks is to be nonviolent or if a black character uses 'legit' violence it is usually in support of a white character, or a white-dominated institution. But the idea that a former sovereign of a warrior nation not use violence, not exact vengeance, was absurd. It made him look weak and impotent. Especially against Doom for all the things he had done. It also made no sense. T'Challa had a long history with Doom. He knew that the man wouldn't be moved by words, especially when he had almost achieved total power. I think it was a cop out, and left T'Challa as a weak looking character, and someone not requisitely badass in an industry who's fanbase loves badass moments. Those were few and far between for T'Challa in DW. Doom on the other hand, probably had several.

Flags of our Fathers was a much better story IMO.

 

[Donald Thomas]

and impotent. Especially against Doom for all the things he had done. It also made no sense. T'Challa had a long history with Doom. He knew that the man wouldn't be moved by words, especially when he had almost achieved total power. I think it was a cop out, and left T'Challa as a weak looking character, and someone not requisitely badass in an industry who's fanbase loves badass moments. Those were few and far between for T'Challa in DW. Doom on the other hand, probably had several.

Flags of our Fathers was a much better story IMO.

Aloha,
This was DoomWar and by it's title, leaned towards Doom over T'Challa and Wakanda.For more than a year now, T'Challa has either been in a coma or recovering from the coma.One of the key weapons of T'Challa is his ability to think 3 steps ahead of his enemy.No where did I get the feeling that T'Challa was Doom's intellectual equal-which he is. That both Doom and T'Challa now use both a high level of science and sorcery combined- while not new for them, could make for some interesting stories down the road.I think the humbling of T'Challa at the end of DW was supposed to be a metaphor for nations that depend upon one material (oil). I'm thinking that Wakanda will continue as an advanced society with other materials at it's disposal maybe even a new element.The Marvel Atlas lists Major Resources: Vibranium, uranium, coal, diamonds, aeronautics, aircraft manufacture. The 1st issue of Klaws shows the Panthers and other heroes in the Savage Land. There's vibranium in the Savage Land.
I also thought Flags was better than DW.
Spidey rules except in Wakanda

 

[Red Mask]

It was more a suggestion that the "Great White West" was putting it's hands on yet another African Nation and would somehow influence and or affect Wakandan policy...

If this was the Initiative years I'd agree. But Captain America didn't save the day and Henry Gyrich isn't around.

And T'Challa didn't cop out. He proved that he was more noble than any of us could ever be. That's what makes him a great leader. Also he didn't have enough time to prove Doom's plot to the world. People are not that quick and trustworthy.

 

[DarKush]

T'Challa came off as the nice guy that a lot of women say they like right before they go out and screw the bad boy that they really want, like Wolverine or Batman for example. I think T'Challa's speech represented a neutered, impotent image of a black man that is more palatable to majority white audiences. But I think it messed up the flow of the story and didn't deliver on the payback Mr. Maberry promised. Most of the time we want to see, need to see, the hero kick the crap out of the villain. Why should it be different with Panther, especially after all the violations Doom had committed against him and his family.

Nobility sounds good and all but it makes for a boring comic and having others largely fight his battles for him, like DoomWar did, isn't a good way to put the character on the A-List or make more significant in the scheme of things at the Marvel U, which I believe is one of the things Maberry said DoomWar would do. The vibranium thing could actually do that, if they follow up on it. My guess is that they will quickly use the vibranium in the Savage Land to replace the lost Wakandan vibranium, or T'Challa can reverse the spell.

Also, with DW, it was first described as a BP event, and then as a Doom-centric story. Okay, if you make it all about Doom, then Doom should have had a character journey, it was him that should have learned something or changed. But at the end of DW it seemed like Maberry switched it back to T'Challa so that he could tell us that T'Challa was too arrogant, xenophobic, and needed to be taken down a peg. I don't know if anyone has told Union Jack, Captain America, or any representative of a majority white nation, even DC's Geo-Force something similar and it was accepted as okay. No, some fans were pissed that they removed Wonder Woman's star panties, calling that anti-American. And some fans were not pleased either with Black Panther beating Captain America in "Who is the Black Panther?"

I mean, mild criticism, inferred criticism at that, of the Tea Party had Marvel in hot water, but yet it was okay to take down an African country for being 'xenophobic'. Albeit a fictional one, but still an African superpower and one of the better depictions of an African country in all of comics. It didn't sit right with me. I don't think a 'lesson' was needed at all. And how does humbling T'Challa actually make him a more attractive hero? It leaves him stumbling, not leaping, out of the gates to the top-tier.

I actually didn't mind the coup or Doom stealing the vibranium-I primarily had issues with the execution and the end result-but what I wanted was a chess match between T'Challa and Doom followed by a fierce showdown in which T'Challa showed himself Doom's physical and intellectual equal, if not superior. That's how you establish T'Challa as a major player. Not having him get choked out and then pull a last minute rabbit out of his hat. And doing that after being subjected to a Doom polemic and agreeing with it.

 

[Varient]

meh,... You guys are typing about stuff that normally gets "shut down" on the Hype.

Keep running with it!

 

[DarKush]

Donald Thomas,

If T'Challa had time to travel to Utopia, enlist Deadpool, or Shuri to hack into Doom's bank account, etc., I'm sure he or Shuri could've sent the U.N. Wakandan ambassador a video of Doom pontificating on his evil plans. At least that gets the ball rolling. If not that, Doom's creatures were attacking somebody or something during the event. I don't think that it would've been all that hard for T'Challa to rally world opinion in his direction, giving him the leeway to invade Latveria.

Or barring that, just unilaterally move in, international condemnation be damned. Basically I feel there was enough time to at least introduce the diplomatic option. Though I feel DW often squandered a lot of time forcing Maberry to use dollops of exposition and the rushed conclusion to make up for it.