The Official Black Panther Thread

[Silver Zeal]

Hello fellow Wakandans,

Wats-up with d BP ANIMATED SERIES which was on i-TUNES?

Marvel stated dat there would b 12 episodes on i-Tunes which is 6 episodes more than wat was shown on ABC Australia and we have already seen d one dat were aired...........but wat about d rest?

Can some1 pls holla at Hudlin?

 

[Varient]

On topic:
(In order of mild irritation)
1. So the retcon on the current panther is that before she grew some responsibility,.. she was a Paris Hilton clone?


Meh.

2. All the OTHER tech that was used by Wakanda that was sometimes shared out to the rest of the world, ( Kimodo cards, Quinjet variations, adamantium gear/tech etc,.. ) Got lost?

3. T'challa and Ororo has left her in charge?

4. On T'Challa,..... so is he now a magic user? or is he just tooled for magic use? (One learns spells incantations, science behind magic manipulation - the other has weapons/tools/items that do the magic for him.)

5. Any word on what Wakanda's new primary export will be?

 

[E-Man]

Hello fellow Wakandans,

Wats-up with d BP ANIMATED SERIES which was on i-TUNES?

Marvel stated dat there would b 12 episodes on i-Tunes which is 6 episodes more than wat was shown on ABC Australia and we have already seen d one dat were aired...........but wat about d rest?

Can some1 pls holla at Hudlin?

That animated series has just been a giant cluster**** from the get go. It takes them a few years to show us anything, then it turns out to be a damn motion comic. Hudlin leaves BET or gets forced to resign, and the snow never reaches the channel. Australia gets all the episodes, but here we only get half-episodes on itunes. I'm sure you can download all the series from somewhere online if you know where to look. It's basically the same thing as Hudlin's first six issues with a few changes.

On topic:
(In order of mild irritation)
1. So the retcon on the current panther is that before she grew some responsibility,.. she was a Paris Hilton clone?


Meh.

2. All the OTHER tech that was used by Wakanda that was sometimes shared out to the rest of the world, ( Kimodo cards, Quinjet variations, adamantium gear/tech etc,.. ) Got lost?

3. T'challa and Ororo has left her in charge?

4. On T'Challa,..... so is he now a magic user? or is he just tooled for magic use? (One learns spells incantations, science behind magic manipulation - the other has weapons/tools/items that do the magic for him.)

5. Any word on what Wakanda's new primary export will be?

Shuri being like Paris may help explain wtf she was doing all of those years when she didn't exist before Hudlin created her. Now that we're stuck with her we need an explanation on where she was the whole time, so maybe they can run with that a bit.

Wakanda being so dependent on vibranium actually annoys me. Of all the other things Wakanda has been shown to have in the past, they were really hooked on vibranium like a drug? In their 10,000 years of existence they couldn't figure out how to use their other resources in addition to the vibranium? It makes them look like incompetent people who got lucky. Losing the vibranium should hurt them pretty badly, but it shouldn't just outright destroy all the damn power they have. I think eventually T'Challa will reactivate the vibranium again. It's bound to happen with the way he just shut it all down at the end of Doomwar.

 

[NightBeetle]

Black Panther: The Man Without Fear #513

 

[Silver Zeal]

Did any1 get BP:MWF #513?

It was a pretty good read despite our/Silver Zeal crew expectations. We still dislike dis direction, dis 1st issue may b good but so were d 1st 2 issues of Doomwar there4 we r gonna remain skeptikal until d very end of is arc.

So if u were writing BP/Tchalla, how would u do it?

Here is a thread dat focuses on dis question, chek-it out and post wat u think about d suggestions in dis thread....u may as well bring in ur own suggestions.

If u were writing BP/Tchalla, how would u do it?
http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=350541

We would also like 2 know wat people think about marriage with Storm/Queen Ororo and watever suggestions any of u may have 4 it and its portrayal.

 

[DarKush]

I posted a reply in the DD thread, but I'll say a few words here. I thought it was decent in terms of artwork and writing (though DL can be a little wordy in spots). I still don't think its the best direction to take the character in. Vlad the Impaler has potential, though this all seems a bit small bore for T'Challa, but I guess that's the point.

Regarding the Storm/Ororo marriage, its been getting the shaft since the Hudlin-Maberry Shuri as BP era began. And it took another hit in T'Challa's MWF debut.

What I would have done (working within the parameters set by Maberry), I would've had T'Challa reclaim his mantle post-DW and given Shuri a new code name. Then I would do a better story than Klaws of the Panther about the search for new vibranium to wrap up that storyline. After that, the Wakandans vote to abolish the monarchy or make it ceremonial, freeing up T'Challa and family to go on adventures. Eventually I would put T'Challa and Storm on an Avengers team, a team they headed. As for Shuri, either she would be on that team or she would be on a US Avengers squad.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Black Panther #513 sucked ass for continuity issues, characters being out of character, boring villain, and over all this being the stupidest thing that Marvel has ever done.

 

[DarKush]

^
Tell us how you really feel? Seriously, I have my issues with this direction but is it really the stupidiest thing Marvel has ever done? Seriously? Let's take it down a thousand.

From what I've read of your other posts, I get that you don't care particularly for the Hudlin Black Panther iteration which you believe has been carried over by Maberry and now Liss. That's your right to feel how you feel, but I personally think that some of your critique is overblown, which is also your right I guess.

 

[hippie_hunter]

^
Tell us how you really feel? Seriously, I have my issues with this direction but is it really the stupidiest thing Marvel has ever done? Seriously? Let's take it down a thousand.

From what I've read of your other posts, I get that you don't care particularly for the Hudlin Black Panther iteration which you believe has been carried over by Maberry and now Liss. That's your right to feel how you feel, but I personally think that some of your critique is overblown, which is also your right I guess.

Actually, while Maberry carried on with Hudlin's direction, I will give credit to Liss for not going forward with it. While he does not end the Storm/T'Challa marriage, Liss isn't making T'Challa the Gary Stu that Hudlin made him out to be, and they are now taking a more grim, gritty, urban approach as opposed to being an African centric superhero comic with somewhat racist overtones that Hudlin did. And this is the best Black Panther comic to come out in years. Which is sad. However, I will go into detail on why I hate Black Panther #513.

Reason #1: Massive Continuity Issues

First of all, Black Panther #513 is set three weeks after Matt asks T'Challa to take over for him as protector of Hell's Kitchen. There's a big problem with that. First of all in Daredevil #512 and Shadowland: After the Fall, which are set in the days after Shadowland ends, Black Panther is already patrolling Hell's Kitchen. There was no time for Matt Murdock to be all healed up, call up T'Challa from Wakanda, and take the time to ask T'Challa to protect Hell's Kitchen.

Second, Shadowland #5, Daredevil #512, and Shadowland: After the Fall clearly establish that the only person that Daredevil has had personal contact with is a priest to confess his sins. Everyone, Foggy Nelson, Luke Cage, Elektra, Ben Urich, etc. have not been in contact with him. Yet somehow, Foggy is completely aware of the situation of T'Challa taking over for Daredevil and come up with forged immigration papers, set up an apartment, and job for "Mr. Okonkwo." Who told Foggy that T'Challa is taking over for Matt?

Third, Ed Brubaker's run on Captain America clearly states that the Super Soldier Serum has not been successfully duplicated and yet, we have Romania, ****ing Romania, managing to do so!

Reason #2: Why the hell is Black Panther taking over Daredevil's book ?

Marvel has done plenty of title changes before. Sometimes frivolous title changes like the Incredible Hulk to the Incredible Hulks and Fantastic Four to whatever the title will become after "Three". And sometimes they are more drastic title changes when the book stars a new character such as changing Wolverine to Dark Wolverine when Daken took over the book or changing the Incredible Hulk to the Incredible Hercules when Hercules and Amadeus Cho took over the book. And now, we have Daredevil becoming Black Panther.

Everytime though something has built up to these title changes. Three is killing a member of the Fantastic Four, so it really doesn't make sense for the book to be called Fantastic Four when there are three members. World War Hulks developed the Hulk family coming together. The Dark Reign event took the theme of warping various Marvel books such as a Hawkeye mini starring Bullseye, Moonstone taking over Ms. Marvel, and Daken taking over Wolverine. And during World War Hulk, the tie-in issues of the Incredible Hulk starred Amadeus Cho and Hercules and the role they played in the event and barely had the Hulk in the book. However, with Black Panther taking over Daredevil, there was no proper build up. We just have Black Panther showing up saying how Hell's Kitchen is his neighborhood now and a crappy explaination is given after the title is already changed. Black Panther had nothing to do with Shadowland, nothing to do with the recent Daredevil stories, etc. He just shows up barely in the epilogue issues of Shadowland and Marvel expects us to go along with it?

Also whenever a new character takes over a book, they tend to have heavy ties to the original character. Amadeus Cho was a Hulk character. Daken is Wolverine's son and even took up the mantle of being a fake Wolverine. When a new character took over Hulk, the Red Hulk was already established as a Hulk character. Mon-El, Flamebird, Lex Luthor, and Nightwing have ties to Superman when they took over Superman and Action Comics. Batwoman has ties to the world of Batman.

T'Challa on the other hand has very little ties to Daredevil. Daredevil really hasn't appeared in the Black Panther books, you can count the number of times on one hand Black Panther has appeared in the over 500 issues of Daredevil, and they never teamed up in a book like Marvel Team-Up or Daredevil/Black Panther.

So I ask the question: Why is Black Panther taking over the book of a character he has very little ties to? Yeah, they certainly are allies. But I wouldn't call them close enough friends to merit Matt Murdock to ask T'Challa to take over running Hell's Kitchen for him. That would be like Spider-Man asking his fourth cousin that he sees once every ten years to take care of Aunt May for him.

Reason #3: Why didn't Daredevil ask someone else to protect Hell's Kitchen for him?

It's pretty obvious who Daredevil's closest allies are in recent years: Spider-Man, Luke Cage, and Iron Fist. So why didn't he ask one of them to watch over Hell's Kitchen, since they live so close by Hell's Kitchen and there is no need to create any false personas, forge documents, etc. And let's not forget that Iron Fist has actually posed as Daredevil to fill in for Matt Murdock's absence during Ed Brubaker's run on Daredevil.

Also, Matt Murdock says during Kevin Smith's run on Daredevil, Matt says that New York City alone has enough superheroes to fill in for him. Lets go over that list: Spider-Man, Dr. Strange, Mr. Fantastic, the Invisible Woman, the Human Torch, the Thing, Hawkeye, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, the Falcon, Captain America, Mockingbird, Moon Knight, Misty Knight, Colleen Wing, Spider-Girl, Jackpot, Ms. Marvel, Wonder Man, Spider-Woman, Blue Shield, the Punisher, it's the headquarters of the Avengers (Wolverine, Thor, Iron Man), etc. So why the hell would Daredevil go and ask the one superhero in the Marvel Universe that didn't live in New York City?

Reason #4: Wakanda

Due to the events of Doomwar, Wakanda is in serious economic, social, and political turmoil. Their primary source of economic income, Wakandan vibranium has been rendered inert by T'Challa in order to prevent Dr. Doom from using it. Their government has just recently survived assassination attempts and an attempted coup by a Latverian backed group. The people of Wakanda are frustrated by their king constantly taking part in superheroics and shying away from tradition and are dealing with a social conflict between the old traditions and the rise of the new ideals.

Thankfully, Wakanda has a king who is one of the eight smartest men in the world, who has the wisdom, knowledge, and ability that can revitalize and diversify the economy, stabilize the government, and has the strength that can guide Wakanda by leading the various ethnic factions, respecting the old traditions, while accepting new ideals. Oh wait, he's in some neighborhood playing Batman for a guy he rarely interacts with.

Luckily, Wakanda has a strong queen that can rule in her husband's place. Oh wait, she's off being a part of the X-Men.

At least Wakanda has a princess regent and current Black Panther to fill in for the Wakandan Royal Family. Oh wait, she's off having adventures in the Savage Land and New York City because T'Challa told her to "take some time off."

Who the **** is ruling Wakanda at a crucial time like this?

Reason #5: T'Challa is an *******.

See Reason #4. T'Challa is an irresponsible ******* for now completely avoiding his responsibilities to his nation and people to do this "test."

Reason #6: Why is everyone going along with this?

Why is Storm just kowtowing to T'Challa's wishes? Why does Foggy Nelson just go along with T'Challa taking over Hell's Kitchen when there is clearly no one capable of telling him about the situation? Why doesn't the rest of the Marvel Universe tell T'Challa to be a man and be the king that his nation needs him to be?

Reason #7: Characters Acting Out of Character

First of all, Matt knows of the situation going on in Wakanda, so why would he even bother asking T'Challa to give up his responsibilities as King of Wakanda to protect Hell's Kitchen?

Second, to Black Panther, his first and foremost responsibility is to his nation Wakanda. Going off to be an urban vigilante in Hell's Kitchen is completely out of charcter for him when Wakanda is in a dire state.

Reason #8: A Generic, Uniteresting, and Completely Unnecessary Antagonist

Now who is the person that Black Panther is going to go up against in his test to protect Hell's Kitchen?

Is it the Kingpin, Daredevil's primary archnemesis who is now in control of the Hand, and employs Lady Bullseye, Typhoid Mary, and the Hobgoblin? Is it Mr. Fear, someone who would go along great with the idea of T'Challa becoming the new Man Without Fear? Is it a member of Daredevil's rogues gallery who hasn't been used in a while? Or maybe a member of Black Panther's rogues gallery such as Erik Killmonger or Klaw. Surely an antagonist that would fit perfectly with both the Daredevil and Black Panther mythos.

Nope, it's some Romanian guy named Vlad the Impaler (realy subtle ) who has the powers of Captain America and the ability to convert mater into energy (which is really stupid). And they make him a generic mobster. You know instead of creating a new, generic mobster villain, why not use the many mobster type characters that Marvel already has such as you know the Kingpin, the Owl, the Maggia, the Gnuccis, etc.?

Reason #9: T'Challa is now Batman

Congratulations Moon Knight, you are no longer Marvel's Batman rip off. Now with T'Challa dressing up in a costume that looks like Batman's without the cape and playing grim and gritty urban vigilante in a desilute area filled with crime and corruption, Black Panther has now become Marvel's new Batman rip off.

Reason #10: T'Challa not calling himself Black Panther

The book is called Black Panther. T'Challa dresses up like Black Panther. T'Challa was Black Panther. And yet, he insists that he is not Black Panther and that he has no superhero identity. Stupid.

So yes, I will still say that this is one of the stupidest things that Marvel has ever done. And that's because there is no reason for Black Panther to take over Daredevil's book at all. Daredevil: Reborn should be in what should be Daredevil's book. Black Panther should be nowhere near the Daredevil mythos.

 

[Varient]

(smile)

Props.

That was explained beautifully.

 

[DarKush]

HH,

I'm glad you moderated your condemnation. As I said in previous posts, I'm not pleased with the new direction and I agree with many of your points. However, I disagree with your problem with T'Challa being an "African centric" character on Hudlin's run or that RH was somewhat racist.

T'Challa is an African monarch. It would make sense that his focus is more African-centered than being focused elsewhere, as you pointed out in your lists of issues with BP as the new Man Without Fear.

As for RH being racist, I've heard this charge before but I don't buy it. How exactly was he racist?

The way I see it, black comic characters and other non-white characters get marginalized all the time, and have been either stereotyped, marginalized, or nonexistent in a great many American comic books throughout the history of comics. But some of the fans complaining about RH don't seem too concerned about that historical marginalization or continued marginalization, but if RH presents a strong black man who's proud to be black, then he's racist. Or if he makes a story where white people aren't at the center of it, or telling it, then somehow he's anti-white. That's not the vibe I got from Hudlin's BP at all.

 

[Docker2.0]

Well said HH. But about the point of Hudlin, I don't think he's racist I think he just sees the world differently. Hard to explain but being black I can see where he's coming from.

 

[hippie_hunter]

HH,

I'm glad you moderated your condemnation. As I said in previous posts, I'm not pleased with the new direction and I agree with many of your points. However, I disagree with your problem with T'Challa being an "African centric" character on Hudlin's run

T'Challa is an African monarch. It would make sense that his focus is more African-centered than being focused elsewhere, as you pointed out in your lists of issues with BP as the new Man Without Fear.

I'm not condemning that Hudlin made his run African-centric, it should be African centric. Hudlin making his Black Panther run African-centric is one of the few things he did right. I was just clarifying that I don't see Liss' run on Black Panther to be a continuation of Hudlin's run and because Liss is taking a completely different approach, I shouldn't let Hudlin's run taint my perception of Liss' run.

And I think that both you and I can certainly agree that the approaches of Hudlin and Liss are very different.

or that RH was somewhat racist.


As for RH being racist, I've heard this charge before but I don't buy it. How exactly was he racist?

The way I see it, black comic characters and other non-white characters get marginalized all the time, and have been either stereotyped, marginalized, or nonexistent in a great many American comic books throughout the history of comics. But some of the fans complaining about RH don't seem too concerned about that historical marginalization or continued marginalization, but if RH presents a strong black man who's proud to be black, then he's racist. Or if he makes a story where white people aren't at the center of it, or telling it, then somehow he's anti-white. That's not the vibe I got from Hudlin's BP at all.

The problem with Hudlin's take wasn't the fact that he wrote a strong black man who is proud to be black. That isn't racist. Everyone should be proud of their heritage.

Hudlin's approach came off as somewhat racist IMO because Hudlin always had Black Panther team-up with and be friends with characters simply because they were black. He turned Luke Cage into a Black Panther fanboy out of nowhere. He has T'Challa side with the anti-registration forces because Goliath was killed and apparently they were BFFs and I really don't recall them ever meeting, so it feels like Hudlin only created this relationship just because they were black. Or how when T'Challa came to America and the only people who were excited to see him were black people, when in my opinion, white people would also be excited to see an incredibly accomplished superhero and monarch. Or how the people in the government were trying to think of a way to get rid of T'Challa were just a bunch of old white people. Or how T'Challa had BET be the one to cover his wedding. Or his marriage to Storm which feels like it is only created simply because they are Marvel's two biggest black characters.

Hudlin having Black Panther have relationships with characters only because of race while coming off as anti-white (not that Black Panther should be white centric) made Black Panther come off as slightly racist.

However, that wasn't the biggest problem with Hudlin's run. The biggest problem was that he made T'Challa a complete and total Gary Stu. He came off as too perfect, you have characters like Luke Cage totally willing to suck T'Challa **** because he was just way too awesome. It felt like he could overcome any challenge with ease. That there was nothing wrong with the character and lacked any flaws.

Or how he messed around with Wakanda's history from simply keeping up with the Western powers because the Wakandans were clever while T'Challa was the one who turned Wakanda into the superpower it is today to Wakanda being vastly far more advanced than the rest of the world since the dawn of time. That takes T'Challa's character down quite a notch IMO.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Well said HH. But about the point of Hudlin, I don't think he's racist I think he just sees the world differently. Hard to explain but being black I can see where he's coming from.

That's pretty much how I feel. I don't think that Hudlin hates white people, he doesn't go off saying how he hates whitey on his run from Black Panther. But he certainly does see the world differently.

I just don't get why in Hudlin's eyes, white people outside of the superhero community, couldn't like the Black Panther. Or why Hudlin uses the sole reason of race to define his relationships with Storm, Luke Cage, and Goliath.

Maybe it's just me because of the way I see the world where the color of one's skin shouldn't matter and it's all about how one is as a human being.

 

[Docker2.0]

I agree he shouldn't and I wish his writing(or former writing)wouldn't have the Panther think like that, you know like having only black superhero friends because BP is one of the most recognized superheroes in the black community, hence all these actors wanting to play him. I for one hope that BP is revamped, the Storm marriage is OMDishly gone, and he go back to the Priest days but I don't see that happening.

 

[DarKush]

Thanks HH and Docker for your comments. I too see things differently. Regarding the usage of BET, at the time Hudlin was head of their entertainment division, so I can see him doing a little product placement/cross promotion there. BET used to have a decent news program (s) before being bought out by Viacom, and I think they have recently started up their news wing again, though to be fair I don't watch BET all that much anymore.

Regarding blacks being excited by T'Challa's visit to the US, Priest also did something similar at the beginning of his run, where BP was able to quell some unrest in Harlem (?) by his presence alone, something even the overwhelmingly white Avengers couldn't do. So, to some extent, I could see that as continuing what Priest established. I don't have a problem with BP hanging with other black characters. I mean, black people generally mix up socially with other blacks, in the USA at least, and whites with whites, etc. I could see Hudlin extending it to other black characters, and it might provide a little spotlight on some underused characters like Black Goliath. Far too often, there's a tendency to have black characters only hang out/interact with whites or non-blacks, when I don't think that's the reality for many black folks in this country, and I think Hudlin was trying to reflect that. With the Storm/BP marriage, once again I'm a big supporter. There's never been a black supercouple like them before and I would like to see more examples of black-black love in all media. In a lot of comics, blacks are generally paired with non-blacks in romantic relationships if they are given relationships at all. Now, on one level this is being tolerant, and well meaning. However, if this is coupled with dysfunctional black-black relationships, or blacks not interacting much at all, I wonder if its sending a message that blacks don't love one another, they can't work together, etc.? RH is cognizant of the history of black negative imaging, IMO, and I think he was trying to counter that with his take on BP, for good or ill.

Though it perhaps hasn't been well established, I could see Luke Cage admiring T'Challa, and being a little awestruck around him. He is royalty, he is in many ways the epitome of a superhero and he's a black dude to boot. I think Hudlin is well aware of how race is lived, or has been lived in this country, and how blacks have had to cope with it.

When I saw stuff like the black characters responding to Hurricane Katrina, I liked it. I had never seen black superheroes working together on a crisis that affected a lot of black folks. Its interesting where I might have saw cooperation others might have saw exclusion during Hudlin's run. I have to chalk it up to some different lived experiences.

Regarding Hudlin's run, HH I agree that there was a bit too much Gary Stuism. I enjoyed the first six-book arc and the Katrina story the most but one of my major criticisms was there was far too much telling how BP was great, without showing. Though RH did a good job putting BP in mortal danger with the Dark Reign storyline, which I felt corrected some of the things I had issues with.

Comparing the modern BP writers, I would say that RH had the best cultural sensitivity/sensibility. When he wrote slang, etc., it was up to date, not like Priest (some of that stuff came purely from his head, not from actual black people, which was a shame since characters like Queen Divine Justice were supposed to represent just that; like Ross was supposed to be an 'everyman' who would perhaps make it easier for white readers to get into the book). Now, RH didn't always use slang at the right times, sometimes it came across as inappropriate, but I appreciate the relevant cultural references, etc. Both men wrote very strong characters. Unfortunately, Maberry continued to sideline T'Challa and DoomWar didn't do much to establish him as a major player. A lot of Maberry's focus went to Shuri. As for Liss, this is a stripped-down T'Challa, a new direction, but one I would argue is still within the parameters laid by Maberry which was beget by Hudlin. Not sure where its going just yet, so I'll hold judgment.

HH, hopefully you're distaste for RH's style won't color your perception of the current book. Personally I see Maberry and Liss as more of a seperate thing from Hudlin's work, even though his Dark Reign/Shuri-as-BP story got the ball rolling. To me, Maberry took it and ran with it, adding his own things to it, making it is own.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Thanks HH and Docker for your comments. I too see things differently. Regarding the usage of BET, at the time Hudlin was head of their entertainment division, so I can see him doing a little product placement/cross promotion there. BET used to have a decent news program (s) before being bought out by Viacom, and I think they have recently started up their news wing again, though to be fair I don't watch BET all that much anymore.

But seriously....BET.

Regarding blacks being excited by T'Challa's visit to the US, Priest also did something similar at the beginning of his run, where BP was able to quell some unrest in Harlem (?) by his presence alone, something even the overwhelmingly white Avengers couldn't do. So, to some extent, I could see that as continuing what Priest established.

But Priest actually took the time to develop better reasons and he didn't take it to the extent that Hudlin did.

Also, I was just noticing the complete lack of any other race that came out to greet T'Challa with enthusiasm. The guy is one of the greatest superheroes and monarchs in the Marvel Universe. I would think that Hispanics, Asians, whites, or just about any American would be excited to see him and Storm.

I don't have a problem with BP hanging with other black characters. I mean, black people generally mix up socially with other blacks, in the USA at least, and whites with whites, etc. I could see Hudlin extending it to other black characters, and it might provide a little spotlight on some underused characters like Black Goliath. Far too often, there's a tendency to have black characters only hang out/interact with whites or non-blacks, when I don't think that's the reality for many black folks in this country, and I think Hudlin was trying to reflect that.

I don't have a problem with Black Panther hanging with other black characters. Most of Black Panther's supporting cast should be black. And I don't mind him teaming up with characters like Luke Cage, the Falcon, and Blade, those are major black characters, but when you have Black Panther teaming up with Brother Voodoo before he was Sorcerer Supreme and being BFFs out of nowhere with Black Goliath, that's just scraping the bottom of the barrel. It feels like (and it was) that the sole and only reason that Black Panther was teaming up with those characters was just because of race and that Hudlin had to make up a bad story to make it seem plausible.

With the Storm/BP marriage, once again I'm a big supporter. There's never been a black supercouple like them before and I would like to see more examples of black-black love in all media. In a lot of comics, blacks are generally paired with non-blacks in romantic relationships if they are given relationships at all. Now, on one level this is being tolerant, and well meaning. However, if this is coupled with dysfunctional black-black relationships, or blacks not interacting much at all, I wonder if its sending a message that blacks don't love one another, they can't work together, etc.? RH is cognizant of the history of black negative imaging, IMO, and I think he was trying to counter that with his take on BP, for good or ill.

The problem is that the marriage came out of nowhere. Before Marvel announced the Storm/Black Panther marriage, the two have encountered each other a grand total of about one or two times. The only reason why they were married was because they were black. It was a complete and superficial reason.

Now if Marvel (not just Hudlin) actually took the time (as in years) to develop the relationship between Ororo and T'Challa, I and many others would not be opposed to the marriage between the two characters. The best marriages in comics are those that took years to develop the relationships:

- Superman and Lois Lane: known each other for over 60 years and were in an actual relationship for years before getting married.

- Mr. Fantastic and the Invisible Woman: were married 3 years after their introduction, introduced as boyfriend/girlfriend, and known each other for years before being introduced to the comic reading public.

- Spider-Man and Mary Jane Watson: were married after 20 years of being introduced to each other and had a romantic relationship for over 10 years before getting married.

Instead we had Marvel rely on retcons to develop a relationship that came out of nowhere to give off the appearance that they are meant to be together as opposed to properly developing the characters all while destroying the Spider-Man/Mary Jane marriage.

Though it perhaps hasn't been well established, I could see Luke Cage admiring T'Challa, and being a little awestruck around him. He is royalty, he is in many ways the epitome of a superhero and he's a black dude to boot. I think Hudlin is well aware of how race is lived, or has been lived in this country, and how blacks have had to cope with it.

Luke Cage should be strong and independent, not fawning over like a little girl at a Jonas Brothers concert when he sees pretty much ANYONE!

When I saw stuff like the black characters responding to Hurricane Katrina, I liked it. I had never seen black superheroes working together on a crisis that affected a lot of black folks. Its interesting where I might have saw cooperation others might have saw exclusion during Hudlin's run. I have to chalk it up to some different lived experiences.

Honestly I think that Marvel should just completely avoid dealing with issues such as 9/11 and Hurricane Katrina because in a world where we have extremely competent superheroes, events such as 9/11 should not happen and disasters such as Hurricane Katrina cause minimal damage. Storm alone could have manipulated Hurricane Katrina to be far less damaging while Captain America and the Avengers lead the way evacuate the city and prevent property damage. Here's how it should go:

* New Orleans is being ravaged by Hurricane Katrina when all of a sudden Storm arrives to calm the storm down

Storm: I've just ended the hurricane that is ravaging this city! How's everything going on the ground?

Iron Man: I'm scanning the structural weak points on the levies to prevent flooding! Spider-Man, Thor, Giant Man! Use your abilties to reinforce the levies and prevent the waters from rushing in!

Spider-Man: Will do Shellhead!

Thor: Aye. These oceans SHALL NOT PASS!!!

* Thor grabs the materials needed while Giant Man puts them in the proper place and Spider-Man uses his webbing to reinforce the levies. New Orleans is saved from flooding.

Iron Man: Cap? How's the evacuation going?

Captain America: Great, we got most of the people out of the city! Doctor Strange just used a simple teleportation spell. It's a good thing we got here just in time before any serious damage could occur.

Spider-Man: Hey everybody! Aunt May just called and she just made a fresh batch of wheatcakes for everyone!

Avengers: Hurray!

Wolverine: Snikt, Bub, Bub, Snikt!

*Everybody goes to Spidey's house to have punch and wheatcakes. New Orleans is safe and everything is awesome.

Now that Hudlin used Hurricane Katrina in his run on Black Panther, here's how it probably went:

* Spider-Man is watching the Weather Channel and seeing the devastation happening in New Orleans

Spider-Man: Boy, I sure wish we could do something down there

Storm: Maybe I can use my abilities to manipulate weather to end the hurricane going on.

Captain America: Meh, **** 'em.

Spider-Man: But we're superheroes Cap. Even if we can't stop the hurricane, we should be down there helping the people suffering right now!

Captain America: I said, **** 'em!

Spider-Man: But...

Iron Man: You heard ol' A-Head, he said **** 'em. Now you go sit your ass on the couch and continue watching people losing their homes, livelyhood, and their very lives for no good reason.

*Spider-Man goes to sulk on the couch watching New Orleans get destroyed. If only there was something they could do. Oh well, at least we have Black Panther and a bunch of black superheroes to clean up the mess down there.

Spider-Man: What are you looking at?

Wolverine: Bub!

Regarding Hudlin's run, HH I agree that there was a bit too much Gary Stuism. I enjoyed the first six-book arc and the Katrina story the most but one of my major criticisms was there was far too much telling how BP was great, without showing.

Exactly.

Though RH did a good job putting BP in mortal danger with the Dark Reign storyline, which I felt corrected some of the things I had issues with.

Well....he kinda had to on that one.

Comparing the modern BP writers, I would say that RH had the best cultural sensitivity/sensibility. When he wrote slang, etc., it was up to date, not like Priest (some of that stuff came purely from his head, not from actual black people, which was a shame since characters like Queen Divine Justice were supposed to represent just that; like Ross was supposed to be an 'everyman' who would perhaps make it easier for white readers to get into the book). Now, RH didn't always use slang at the right times, sometimes it came across as inappropriate, but I appreciate the relevant cultural references, etc. Both men wrote very strong characters. Unfortunately, Maberry continued to sideline T'Challa and DoomWar didn't do much to establish him as a major player. A lot of Maberry's focus went to Shuri. As for Liss, this is a stripped-down T'Challa, a new direction, but one I would argue is still within the parameters laid by Maberry which was beget by Hudlin. Not sure where its going just yet, so I'll hold judgment.

I think that Hudlins use of culture hurt the book really. Yeah it was up to date, but it just felt out of place IMO.

HH, hopefully you're distaste for RH's style won't color your perception of the current book. Personally I see Maberry and Liss as more of a seperate thing from Hudlin's work, even though his Dark Reign/Shuri-as-BP story got the ball rolling. To me, Maberry took it and ran with it, adding his own things to it, making it is own.

It be rather unfair to Liss if I allowed my distast for Hudlin's run on Black Panther to taint my perception because unlike Maberry, Liss' run feels completely different than Hudlin's.

Liss' run on Black Panther is off to a horrid start for completely different reasons that are not related to Hudlin.

 

[Varient]

Hmmn.
I've been out of the loop again I see.

I didn't see HH's long explanation as "distaste for RH's style,.."

I saw it as the most irritating part of reading great characters,... the current direction of T'Challa is out of character, and out of place with too many things left unanswered.

I was honestly surprised when I read BP as the new MWF, stripped of his tech w/o real explanation.

I ignored the comments on racism because that was mainstreamed months ago as not being true.

Maybe more later.

 

[E-Man]

I wasn't feeling Man Without Fear at all. I finally went and got it, and the story makes no sense at all. The art is fantastic, but there is no good reason why T'Challa should be filling in for Daredevil. Wtf would he need to test himself for, and in Hell's Kitchen of all places? It's also funny that Matt said that he couldn't leave Hell's Kitchen without a protector, but T'Challa hasn't done nearly the same for an entire kingdom that just lost the use of it's most important resource.

The story would have been much better if it was someone like Black Tarantula, White Tiger, or Moon Knight instead of T'Challa. This reeks of nothing more than an attempt to make Black Panther cool without understanding the character at all. Marvel has tried to push his marriage, sister, and now him as a fill in character for a guy he barely has contact with. In the process it makes Wakanda look much weaker, and it also makes T'Challa look like an idiot for putting a random section of the city before his homeland. Marvel should realize that building Wakanda up to be more important would automatically raise T'Challa's profile, but instead we get cheap stunts like this.

 

[Donald Thomas]

Aloha,
Great discussion.
I'd like to present a few covers of historic note.

This is the issue where T'Challa discovered that Matt Murdock was Daredevil.
In issue #69 of DD, T'Challa reveals to DD that he knows who he is.

In DD #92 Matt Asks T'Challa to pose as him to hide his true identity.

The first Biography of BP lists him telling DD that he knew his secret identity.The relationship between DD and BP has so much dust on it, it's not funny. But, it is a well established relationship that has never been developed. NO other character knew who DD was but T'Challa for many years.That establishes a special bond that after literally decades of neglect, is now being used.You can't knock Marvel for not being within continuity and then ignore the fact that there is a strong relationship between these two characters, just not presented to us.
BTW-Shuri is no where to be found on ANY biography of BP.BP continuity left with Priest. Marvel wanted from Hudlin , a Year One approach and they got it.
BP filling in for DD is more within Black Panther continuity than the entire Hudlin run.Go figure!
I have been asking for an update to Wakandan society for years.While it is officially a Monarchy, obviously, there must be a central council that has been running the day to day operations with T'Challa as the final say on all things.That's what allows him to be the king without being in Wakanda all the time.I think that Marvel has plans for Storm and T'Challa that go into the next two decades.The Watcher already told them that their children are going to be special. It will be interesting to see just how much time the two of them are apart.
The Black Panther must defeat the 6 greatest warriors in Wakanda to use that name.T'Challa has literally come back from the brink of death.Doomwar represents the closest the Wakandan people have EVER come to be taken over by a foreign power. As the Commander in Chief of the Wakandan Defense, T'Challa has a great deal to exam. While his brain is strong, his spirit as a warrior has been severely beaten. He needs to kick some butt.He needs the therapy, so that when he returns to Wakanda, he will be the man he once was, in his own eyes.He needs to earn the name of Black Panther once more.Hell's Kitchen after Shadowland is the perfect location for his kind of therapy.
Didn't read #513 yet.Slow subscription.
Spidey rules except in Wakanda

 

[Docker2.0]

Maybe because their costumes are similiar. They are just different colors.......................I'm reaching here because seriously it makes no sense for BP to be a solo hero in Hell's kitchen.

 

[Justkidding]

Read it. Besides the art, the book was lackluster. I can look past the reasons for BP being in Hells Kitchen, as I don't read his main series, and didn't read Doomwar. What I disliked, no, hated. Was the way everyone was written.

Even when BP wasn't in his secret identity he spoke as if he barely knew english. Just like James Robinsons Superman, I can't read this title based on how difficult and annoying the dialogue reads in my head, and aloud.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Aloha,
Great discussion.
I'd like to present a few covers of historic note.

This is the issue where T'Challa discovered that Matt Murdock was Daredevil.
In issue #69 of DD, T'Challa reveals to DD that he knows who he is.

In DD #92 Matt Asks T'Challa to pose as him to hide his true identity.

The first Biography of BP lists him telling DD that he knew his secret identity.The relationship between DD and BP has so much dust on it, it's not funny. But, it is a well established relationship that has never been developed. NO other character knew who DD was but T'Challa for many years.That establishes a special bond that after literally decades of neglect, is now being used.You can't knock Marvel for not being within continuity and then ignore the fact that there is a strong relationship between these two characters, just not presented to us.
BTW-Shuri is no where to be found on ANY biography of BP.BP continuity left with Priest. Marvel wanted from Hudlin , a Year One approach and they got it.
BP filling in for DD is more within Black Panther continuity than the entire Hudlin run.Go figure!
I have been asking for an update to Wakandan society for years.While it is officially a Monarchy, obviously, there must be a central council that has been running the day to day operations with T'Challa as the final say on all things.That's what allows him to be the king without being in Wakanda all the time.I think that Marvel has plans for Storm and T'Challa that go into the next two decades.The Watcher already told them that their children are going to be special. It will be interesting to see just how much time the two of them are apart.
The Black Panther must defeat the 6 greatest warriors in Wakanda to use that name.T'Challa has literally come back from the brink of death.Doomwar represents the closest the Wakandan people have EVER come to be taken over by a foreign power. As the Commander in Chief of the Wakandan Defense, T'Challa has a great deal to exam. While his brain is strong, his spirit as a warrior has been severely beaten. He needs to kick some butt.He needs the therapy, so that when he returns to Wakanda, he will be the man he once was, in his own eyes.He needs to earn the name of Black Panther once more.Hell's Kitchen after Shadowland is the perfect location for his kind of therapy.
Didn't read #513 yet.Slow subscription.
Spidey rules except in Wakanda

Do I really need to post my list yet again

 

[The Geek Vault]

I enjoyed the art, the villain in the story was kind of lame but I don't mind Black Panther going through this test because I feel in the end he'll come back stronger as a leader of Wakanda.

 

[hippie_hunter]

But this makes him a weaker leader of Wakanda because he's leaving them at the time his coutry needs him the most.