Civil War The Official Captain America: Civil War News & Speculation Thread - - - - - - Part 15

[Web-Head]

Sucks that there really wasn't anything new in the trailer, but at the same time it's a good thing.

 

[TalismanRing]

Wow! I hope that Bucky almost KILLS Tony Stark with his super-arm.

Why? It's not as if Bucky is the one with an understandable grudge. Tony didn't murder Bucky's parents.

 

[Zant]

I just realized that a Hydra goon and a Shield pilot? were brutally killed in the last two Cap films by the propellers of a flying craft. I wonder if they will do it again here. They should use a helicopter this time.

 

[Random490]

I just realized that a Hydra goon and a Shield pilot? were brutally killed in the last two Cap films by the propellers of a flying craft. I wonder if they will do it again here. They should use a helicopter this time.

That would be a neat little recurring element.

 

[Mike5575]

Why? It's not as if Bucky is the one with an understandable grudge. Tony didn't murder Bucky's parents.

So far as we know, none of them have an understandable grudge. Bucky was under Hydra's control when he killed Stark's parents, but people act as if that doesn't matter. Stark is the one, though that created Ultron, along with all of his enemies, and is currently working for the man that hunted down his science bro, Bruce Banner.

The fact that Bucky is going ballistic on IM, indicates that Cap is seriously wounded and is probably sick of people hunting him for something he didn't do. Leave Bucky alone! Add this to the shot of Iron Man with a defeated, unconscious War Machine, this probably drives Tony off the deep end.

 

[MbJ]

So far as we know, none of them have an understandable grudge. Bucky was under Hydra's control when he killed Stark's parents, but people act as if that doesn't matter. Stark is the one, though that created Ultron, along with all of his enemies, and is currently working for the man that hunted down his science bro, Bruce Banner.

Bucky likely doesn't give a single crap about Ultron or Bruce Banner.

 

[TalismanRing]

So far as we know, none of them have an understandable grudge. Bucky was under Hydra's control when he killed Stark's parents, but people act as if that doesn't matter. Stark is the one, though that created Ultron, along with all of his enemies, and is currently working for the man that hunted down his science bro, Bruce Banner.

The fact that Bucky is going ballistic on IM, indicates that Cap is seriously wounded and is probably sick of people hunting him for something he didn't do. Leave Bucky alone! Add this to the shot of Iron Man with a defeated, unconscious War Machine, this probably drives Tony off the deep end.

It matters to Steve and maybe eventually to a court of law and disinterested parties but saying that it's not understandable that Tony might hold a grudge over the murdered parent thing is seeing the world through very Bucky-rose-colored glasses.

Bucky might be going ballistic since he has a short fuse and a psycho killer instinct courtesy of multiple brain wipes and brain washing. Stan recently gave an interview where he said Bucky in a warped way sees HYDRA as his second family. What about that says stable or trustworthy?

 

[TheVision]

Steve is the only guy who really hasnt totally screwed up yet as far as being a good guy. All The Avengers have been corrupted in one way or another (not counting Vision). I think Civil War will be his first stumble.

 

[MbJ]

If someone hits your dog with a car by accident you're still gonna be angry even if you know on an intellectual level it wasn't their fault. Emotions are complicated things.

 

[BoredGuy]

If someone hits your dog with a car by accident you're still gonna be angry even if you know on an intellectual level it wasn't their fault. Emotions are complicated things.

yeah, but if someone held a gun to that guy's head and forced him to hit your dog, wouldn't you be more pissed at the guy with the gun??
hell, I'd feel almost bad for the guy who was being controlled

 

[TalismanRing]

yeah, but if someone held a gun to that guy's head and forced him to hit your dog, wouldn't you be more pissed at the guy with the gun??
hell, I'd feel almost bad for the guy who was being controlled

My pet maybe not. But if someone held a gun to that guy's head and they murdered my mother I definitely would be pissed at both of them.

And if I was able to swallow it eventually I wouldn't want to be working with that person or having that person live off my dime in my tower or my facility. I'm petty that way.

 

[BullMcGiveny]

It matters to Steve and maybe eventually to a court of law and disinterested parties but saying that it's not understandable that Tony might hold a grudge over the murdered parent thing is seeing the world through very Bucky-rose-colored glasses.

It matters to the audience that, coming from TWS, know what little choice Bucky had. You don't need much else.

Tony, on the other hand, never mentioning his mother, hardly feeling warm about his father, wanting Bucky punished outright, isn't a very stout position.

 

[BoredGuy]

My pet maybe not. But if someone held a gun to that guy's head and they murdered my mother I definitely would be pissed at both of them.

And if I was able to swallow it eventually I wouldn't want to be working with that person or having that person live off my dime in my tower or my facility. I'm petty that way.

okay well maybe the gun to the head thing was a poor metaphor, since it implies you still have the choice to die rather than do the other person's bidding

so how bout, if Kilgrave controlled someone to kill your loved one, can you at all blame that person??
You can be mad initially, and you can always look at the person suspiciously (I'm not saying Stark and Bucky should ever be best buds), but you can't blame them or want to see them punished for it, you would have to be extremely revenge minded and completely devoid of empathy

 

[TalismanRing]

It matters to the audience that, coming from TWS, know what little choice Bucky had. You don't need much else.

Tony, on the other hand, never mentioning his mother, hardly feeling warm about his father, wanting Bucky punished outright, isn't a very stout position.

I can't buy into that. Not everyone in the audience loves, likes or sympathizes with Bucky and people quantifying how much Tony loves his parents in order to decide if he has the right to feel any pain or grief over their murder and anger for their murderers is I think ridiculous. Steve has barely mentioned his mother at all in the MCU and Clint never mentioned he had a wife and kids until AOU. But if Bucky murdered any of them I think they'd have feelings about it.

 

[Iron_Stark]

So far as we know, none of them have an understandable grudge. Bucky was under Hydra's control when he killed Stark's parents, but people act as if that doesn't matter. Stark is the one, though that created Ultron, along with all of his enemies, and is currently working for the man that hunted down his science bro, Bruce Banner.

The fact that Bucky is going ballistic on IM, indicates that Cap is seriously wounded and is probably sick of people hunting him for something he didn't do. Leave Bucky alone! Add this to the shot of Iron Man with a defeated, unconscious War Machine, this probably drives Tony off the deep end.

This again.

It doesn't matter, Bucky still needs to answer for the terrorism and mass murdering that he's done. He wants to walk a free man, then he needs to prove that he was mind controlled.

What enemies did Stark create? Who used Stark tech? Stane? That was pretty much it. Vanko used his father's designs and Hammer tech for his suits. Hammer drones were Hammer tech. Killian created Extremis. Ultron A.I. came from the Mind gem and only brought out by Tony and Banner. The Ultron body was created in by Hydra.

The last time Ross was in the presence of the Hulk/Banner, he let him go. He hasn't been hunting him since Harlem. It's not like Tony and Ross are in a room conspiring to bring down Hulk. I doubt he even gets mentioned.

 

[BoredGuy]

Ultron A.I. came from the Mind gem and only brought out by Tony and Banner.

that's a matter of semantics, If he hadn't given the stone "life" then Ultron would never have existed; Stark was working on AI and his autonomous drones prior to discovering what the stone could do, then he discovers an unknown alien AI and says "f**k it, what could go wrong?"

everything goes wrong

then he tries it again with Vision saying "no way this goes wrong twice" and luckily it works out that time. This, imo, is the worst thing Stark has done in all the films. Everyone makes mistakes, but to purposely repeat them with no evidence that it will work out better makes you an insane a*****e.

the rest of your post, i do not disagree with

 

[Iron_Stark]

okay well maybe the gun to the head thing was a poor metaphor, since it implies you still have the choice to die rather than do the other person's bidding

so how bout, if Kilgrave controlled someone to kill your loved one, can you at all blame that person??
You can be mad initially, and you can always look at the person suspiciously (I'm not saying Stark and Bucky should ever be best buds), but you can't blame them or want to see them punished for it, you would have to be extremely revenge minded and completely devoid of empathy

Are you talking as person watching the movie or as a person in the movie?

As an audience member, sure, poor Bucky or poor that girl that shot her parents in the elevator in Jessica Jones.

As a person in the movie, I'd be pissed, I'd want justice if a mass murdering terrorist (according to the news I'd be watching) was in a fire fight in the middle of the city and a loved one got killed intentionally or not. Or I'd want that girl that just shot her parents in an elevator arrested. Can't have people like that walking the streets.

 

[BoredGuy]

if you just heard about it on the news, sure
but when you have all the facts like Stark does, you'd have to temper your emotions

If I know mind control is a real thing, and this person was clearly mind-controlled, my logic would overtake my initial blast of rage
but hey, maybe I'm just a robot, might explain a lot

 

[BullMcGiveny]

I can't buy into that. Not everyone in the audience loves, likes or sympathizes with Bucky

Not everyone in the audience loves, likes or sympathizes with Tony, or Steve. Enough people are sober minded enough to recognize the concept of culpability and how it applies to Bucky.

and people quantifying how much Tony loves his parents in order to decide if he has the right to feel any pain or grief over their murder and anger for their murderers is I think ridiculous. Steve has barely mentioned his mother at all in the MCU and Clint never mentioned he had a wife and kids until AOU. But if Bucky murdered any of them I think they'd have feelings about it.

I'm not quantifying how much he loved them, just pointing out that Tony has by all appearances accepted and adjusted to the death of his parents due to what he believed was a mere tragic accident. occurring 25 years ago.

So it comes across as hackneyed that he goes from that state to unquestioningly driven for retribution without asking any questions.

 

[TalismanRing]

that's a matter of semantics, If he hadn't given the stone "life" then Ultron would never have existed; Stark was working on AI and his autonomous drones prior to discovering what the stone could do, then he discovers an unknown alien AI and says "f**k it, what could go wrong?"

everything goes wrong

then he tries it again with Vision saying "no way this goes wrong twice" and luckily it works out that time. This, imo, is the worst thing Stark has done in all the films. Everyone makes mistakes, but to purposely repeat them with no evidence that it will work out better makes you an insane a*****e.

the rest of your post, i do not disagree with

I think doing it with Vision was completely reckless and very mad scientist but it worked out. Whereas I don't think he and Bruce were completely reckless with Ultron since they never even implemented him and of course it worked out very badly.

I hold Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver responsible for aiding and abetting Ultron in his mad scheme and preventing Tony and the Avengers from stopping him before he murdered anyone. And what they did was not out of a desire to protect the world but revenge (as her turning the Hulk loose on Johannesberg was about revenge - damn the cost) And not revenge because Stark directly murdered their parents but that weapons he made for the U.S. Military were then used against them either by the U.S., a group that the U.S. gave the weapons to or by someone on the black market courtesy of Stane. Yet there are those that give Wanda a pass because she was grief stricken about her parents who'd died 15 years ago.

 

[TalismanRing]

Not everyone in the audience loves, likes or sympathizes with Tony, or Steve. Enough people are sober minded enough to recognize the concept of culpability and how it applies to Bucky.



I'm not quantifying how much he loved them, just pointing out that Tony has by all appearances accepted and adjusted to the death of his parents due to what he believed was a mere tragic accident. occurring 25 years ago.

So it comes across as hackneyed that he goes from that state to unquestioningly driven for retribution without asking any questions.

But it wasn't a tragic accident, it was murder and knowing that makes a big difference especially when its new knowledge. Who said that Tony was driven for retribution. Maybe he's driven by justice? Maybe he doesn't believe that Bucky is currently sane, that he still not under the influence of brain washing, that he's still not capable of murder.

Sebastein Stan said in an interview that Bucky considered HYDRA his second family. We've seen Bucky on a murderous rampage under the influence of HYDRA. Is that some one that should be roaming around free?

 

[BoredGuy]

PTSD played a big part in Wanda's emotional state about her parents
having your parents die, then being buried under rubble waiting to die while staring at Stark's name on a missile is a much more emotionally charged situation than Stark's is.

and eventually, (only a couple days in the movie) she still got over it, so Tony should get over that s**t in like an hour

 

[TalismanRing]

PTSD played a big part in Wanda's emotional state about her parents
having your parents die, then being buried under rubble waiting to die while staring at Stark's name on a missile is a much more emotionally charged situation than Stark's is.

and eventually, (only a couple days in the movie) she still got over it, so Tony should get over that s**t in like an hour

She got over it only after helping a murderous robot kill people and loosing a Hulk on Johannsberg and then realizing Ultron wanted to not only murder the Avengers and those poor sods who got in the way but the entire planet. Cry me a river.

As for PTSD, that's exactly what Tony has been suffering from since the end of Avengers. Its what IM3 was about and with his worst vision (triggered by Wanda) being everyone dying and his being unable to protect the world in AOU leading to his working on Ultron.

The huge difference is Tony's PSTD lead to a need to protect and Wanda's to destroy.

 

[Mike5575]

If someone hits your dog with a car by accident you're still gonna be angry even if you know on an intellectual level it wasn't their fault. Emotions are complicated things.

Actually, it would be there fault, unless that dog's name is LockJaw, and teleported directly in front of the oncoming car. Was the person speeding in a residential zone, not paying attention? The person who hit the dog was being negligent.

My pet maybe not. But if someone held a gun to that guy's head and they murdered my mother I definitely would be pissed at both of them.

And if I was able to swallow it eventually I wouldn't want to be working with that person or having that person live off my dime in my tower or my facility. I'm petty that way.

There's a difference. Bucky was a good man before the mind control. He would likely choose death over killing an innocent person. The difference here, is that even with a gun to your head, you still have free will. You still have a choice. With mind control, you don't.

 

[Mike5575]

This again.

It doesn't matter, Bucky still needs to answer for the terrorism and mass murdering that he's done. He wants to walk a free man, then he needs to prove that he was mind controlled.

What enemies did Stark create? Who used Stark tech? Stane? That was pretty much it. Vanko used his father's designs and Hammer tech for his suits. Hammer drones were Hammer tech. Killian created Extremis. Ultron A.I. came from the Mind gem and only brought out by Tony and Banner. The Ultron body was created in by Hydra.

The last time Ross was in the presence of the Hulk/Banner, he let him go. He hasn't been hunting him since Harlem. It's not like Tony and Ross are in a room conspiring to bring down Hulk. I doubt he even gets mentioned.

You should probably watch the Civil War trailer. Cap informs Bucky that the authorities were not going to take Bucky alive. I don't know about you, but if I find out people were gunning for me over a crime I didn't commit, I'd run to. There is no more powerful instinct than survival.

Tony Stark left the remains of his first suit in the desert. Ivan Vanko? Sins of the father. Extremis? The first words of the movie are: "We create our own demons." Tony feels a little bit guilty. Tony Stark felt like toying with alien tech he didn't understand in AOU, and it cost him. If he had told the Avengers, and not done things secretly like Shield, then Ultron never would have been made.