The OFFICIAL FINAL CRISIS THREAD

[Blader5489]

Where are people getting the idea that Bruce's body was loaded into that rocket? I didn't see his body in it.

 

[BrianWilly]

Well you see the rocket on the second-last page, right there where Batman and Anthro are. And it would be kinda weird (yes, I'm aware of the irony of that statement in relation to this comic) if both that and Batman had just coincidentally ended up in the same time and place through completely different means. Occam's Razor being what it is (even for this comic), it's probably safe to assume that Batman rode in on the rocket. "Last son of a dying planet, shipped away," and all that symbolic stuff.

And consider that the only paraphernalia we ever saw in the rocket was the Bat Signal.

 

[Keyser Soze]

If Ethan Van Sciver is smart, he's been working on Blackest Night since last February.

Actually, Van Sciver is working on Flash: Rebirth. It's Ivan Reis who's doing Blackest Night.

Here's the problem. The plan was for Ivan Reis to leave his regular art duties for Green Lantern in order to get a good headstart on The Blackest Night. This would in theory prevent too much in the way of delays, because the drawing would have began way in advance. Hence Shane Davis being drafted in for the Rage of the Red Lanterns one-shot, and Doug Mahnke and Philip Tan being brought in for the monthly Green Lantern issues. A sound plan in theory.

However, J.G. Jones departure from Final Crisis meant Doug Mahnke had to take over on that front. Which delayed Green Lantern #36 to the point where Ivan Reis had to step in to do the pencilling for it. And he's stuck around to complete the Rage of the Red Lanterns arc, originally assigned to Mahnke. As a result, his "headstart" for The Blackest Night could have been considerably shortened.

 

[Hush]

SO we are prolly going to get delays all around! Great ****!

 

[TheCorpulent1]

It's our fault for hoping for anything else, really. We should expect delays on every big event at this point.

 

[SuGarRush]

I'm positive. I can't imagine Grant Morrison just changing a black dude into a white dude. That would be nonsensical and uncharacteristically racist.

For a brief spotlight bit, sure it could just be a coloring thing.

But heck they do it all the time in the funnybooks these days,

Nick Fury
Mr. Miracle himself
The Question
The Atom
Blue Beetle

Oh snap, we need some more color in these heroes, kill off some white dudes and replace them with a motley assortment of ethnically diverse folks. ASAP

 

[Spider-Gamer]

For a brief spotlight bit, sure it could just be a coloring thing.

But heck they do it all the time in the funnybooks these days,

Nick Fury
Mr. Miracle himself
The Question
The Atom
Blue Beetle

Oh snap, we need some more color in these heroes, kill off some white dudes and replace them with a motley assortment of ethnically diverse folks. ASAP

There is a difference between changing a character skin color (Nick Fury) and replacing the original character with a new one who so happens to be ethnically different (like the last few people in that list).

 

[sethcohen]

god i hate samuel l fury... ugh... i hate that it carried over into other media even more... i wish the ultimate line would just implode already... come on loeb! get it done already! drive this ship into the abyss!

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Eh, for the movies I don't mind it. It was annoying seeing Hitch blatantly copy Sam Jackson's likeness for the Ultimate version, but the real-life Sam Jackson does make a pretty sweet Nick Fury.

 

[sethcohen]

in a perfect world, bruce campbell would be nick fury

 

[Darthphere]

Eh, for the movies I don't mind it. It was annoying seeing Hitch blatantly copy Sam Jackson's likeness for the Ultimate version, but the real-life Sam Jackson does make a pretty sweet Nick Fury.

In real life, Sam Jackson wanted more money to be Nick Fury.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, that's a shame. I guess we'll be getting some random other bald black dude in future movies.

 

[WompuM]

Well, Terrence Howard has some free time now... wait... that wouldn't work would it...

 

[Aristotle]

But heck they do it all the time in the funnybooks these days,

Nick Fury
Mr. Miracle himself
The Question
The Atom
Blue Beetle

Oh snap, we need some more color in these heroes, kill off some white dudes and replace them with a motley assortment of ethnically diverse folks. ASAP

Tone down the white fear there, buddy. I'm never going to understand why people get so uptight about minorities in comics. And don't tell me that ******** about "well why don't they just create a new character and make that character black? Why does my pure white Aryan character have to be killed for the mud people?" The reason is that new characters, whatever their race, don't survive. Jaime Reyes would not have survived if he'd been, say, The El Paso Avenger instead of Blue Beetle. Just look at Breach, who was a perfect example of your pure white master race, but tragically no longer exists, because he didn't have a legacy name. Sadly, unless you're a mutant in the MU, being a new character just doesn't work very often unless you have a legacy name.

So why do you feel so oppressed when a few minority characters replace white ones? Why do you feel so threatened? Why do white people always think they're the ones being attacked? Do you realize that you and people like you run the world? And yet somehow, it's a terrifying sign of the times that Shilo Norman is black. Surely, all white people will soon be subjugated under the reign of inferior dark people.

Finally, a specific refutation of your racist claims:
Ultimate Nick Fury is not the same as 616 Nick Fury. He's a different character, so nobody was killed to make room for him.
The black version of Mister Miracle was created by Jack Kirby in 1973. Created by the original creator of Mister Miracle, in the same series as the original Mister Miracle was created.
The Question's killing and replacement was not mandated by editorial. Greg Rucka wanted to tell that story with Renee Montoya. I know, I know, it makes him a bad white-male-supremacist, because he turned the Question into a Hispanic female, but what are ya gonna do? All these bleeding-heart liberal commie miscegenating race-traitor ******-lovers have taken over comics and the world.
The Atom is an example of a deliberate experiment in diversifying the DCU, by Grant Morrison. Not by editorial. Grant Morrison feels that the DCU needs diversifying. That was one of the big messages of Final Crisis. And why does that threaten you so much? It should also be noted that the disappearance of the original Ray Palmer was not done in anticipation of replacing him with Ryan Choi. That decision was made when editorial discovered, by happy accident, that Morrison had created a different version of the Atom.
You didn't give a **** about Ted Kord before he caught a bullet. You didn't care. Nobody did. 99% of people who say they did are liars. He was comic relief to you, sure, you thought he was funny, but you didn't care one way or the other about him. But let him die and get replaced by a scary brown person, and suddenly you're all up in arms.

God save me from the racists.

 

[SuGarRush]

Tone down the white fear there, buddy. I'm never going to understand why people get so uptight about minorities in comics. And don't tell me that ******** about "well why don't they just create a new character and make that character black? Why does my pure white Aryan character have to be killed for the mud people?" The reason is that new characters, whatever their race, don't survive. Jaime Reyes would not have survived if he'd been, say, The El Paso Avenger instead of Blue Beetle. Just look at Breach, who was a perfect example of your pure white master race, but tragically no longer exists, because he didn't have a legacy name. Sadly, unless you're a mutant in the MU, being a new character just doesn't work very often unless you have a legacy name.

So why do you feel so oppressed when a few minority characters replace white ones? Why do you feel so threatened? Why do white people always think they're the ones being attacked? Do you realize that you and people like you run the world? And yet somehow, it's a terrifying sign of the times that Shilo Norman is black. Surely, all white people will soon be subjugated under the reign of inferior dark people.

Finally, a specific refutation of your racist claims:
Ultimate Nick Fury is not the same as 616 Nick Fury. He's a different character, so nobody was killed to make room for him.
The black version of Mister Miracle was created by Jack Kirby in 1973. Created by the original creator of Mister Miracle, in the same series as the original Mister Miracle was created.
The Question's killing and replacement was not mandated by editorial. Greg Rucka wanted to tell that story with Renee Montoya. I know, I know, it makes him a bad white-male-supremacist, because he turned the Question into a Hispanic female, but what are ya gonna do? All these bleeding-heart liberal commie miscegenating race-traitor ******-lovers have taken over comics and the world.
The Atom is an example of a deliberate experiment in diversifying the DCU, by Grant Morrison. Not by editorial. Grant Morrison feels that the DCU needs diversifying. That was one of the big messages of Final Crisis. And why does that threaten you so much? It should also be noted that the disappearance of the original Ray Palmer was not done in anticipation of replacing him with Ryan Choi. That decision was made when editorial discovered, by happy accident, that Morrison had created a different version of the Atom.
You didn't give a **** about Ted Kord before he caught a bullet. You didn't care. Nobody did. 99% of people who say they did are liars. He was comic relief to you, sure, you thought he was funny, but you didn't care one way or the other about him. But let him die and get replaced by a scary brown person, and suddenly you're all up in arms.

God save me from the racists.

It's posts like these that remind me to always use a smiley when I'm not being 100% serious. Oh well, I don't have the self-control to reply to this without flaming you in return, and I really don't want to do that. I'm a cheery, happy fellow and contrary to what you might think, I even agree with you sometimes.

P.S. 99% means there is still that 1%. It's nice to meet you! t: I've got a pre-order on the Ted Kord action figure, Loose issues and TPB's of the famous JLI run and the JLA classified mini's with Ted in them. The fiance and I moved our "Date Night" two weeks ago so that I could stay at home and watch Ted on The Brave and The Bold. Sorry to dissapoint you man. t: On the other hand. My love for Ralph and Sue didn't really start until the JLA classified, you know, "I can't believe it's not the Justice League" and "Formerly Known as the Justice League" so I'd say I was a newcomer to them, and Identity Crisis was a hard pill to swallow.

I strongly prefer the funny yet good guys over any other form of hero, other than Aquaman and Superman of course.

Oh and Aristotle,

I enjoy your Boy Scout quote at the bottom there. I really love Superman, and it's always nice to see another fan of Big Blue.

 

[Aristotle]

It's posts like these that remind me to always use a smiley when I'm not being 100% serious.

What percentage of seriousness were you? You'll forgive me for not assuming that was a joke: there are a lot of people who raise a stink over that stuff, and who are still angry that the thrice-damned Barackwayne McDuffiebama has blackanized the Justice League of White America. I heard a rumor that at one point, early in the development of Morrison's Batman concept but late in the development of Infinite Crisis, they weren't going to kill Crispus Allen, and were rather going to make him the new Batman. Can you imagine the Nordic fanboy rage?

P.S. 99% means there is still that 1%. It's nice to meet you! t: I've got a pre-order on the Ted Kord action figure, Loose issues and TPB's of the famous JLI run and the JLA classified mini's with Ted in them. The fiance and I moved our "Date Night" two weeks ago so that I could stay at home and watch Ted on The Brave and The Bold. Sorry to dissapoint you man. t: On the other hand. My love for Ralph and Sue didn't really start until the JLA classified, you know, "I can't believe it's not the Justice League" and "Formerly Known as the Justice League" so I'd say I was a newcomer to them, and Identity Crisis was a hard pill to swallow.

Well, I didn't give a **** about Ted Kord until he died. His death was actually my first exposure to him and to most of the DCU. I know a lot of people who were likewise first exposed to him via his death, and didn't really care about it--until one of those scary Mexicanspaniards that are taking all our jobs but are also too lazy to work and are miscegenating our great American white culture with their vile Spanish language took the role of Blue Beetle. These aren't even people who are consciously racist in any way, but suddenly they were up in arms about a Hispanic taking a white man's role.

Of course, a lot of people won't even believe this, because they don't think subconscious racism can possibly exist, and racism is over now because we elected a black guy.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Just curious: do you ever get tired of ranting? You've ranted about pretty much everything under the sun for the last week nonstop. It seems like it'd get exhausting.

 

[Ion Kenshin]

Just curious: do you ever get tired of ranting? You've ranted about pretty much everything under the sun for the last week nonstop. It seems like it'd get exhausting.

cue his rant about ranting on the internet.....leave him be it's all he has

 

[Tron Bonne]

Just curious: do you ever get tired of ranting? You've ranted about pretty much everything under the sun for the last week nonstop. It seems like it'd get exhausting.

You just captured my thoughts and put them on this post.

 

[Aristotle]

Just curious: do you ever get tired of ranting? You've ranted about pretty much everything under the sun for the last week nonstop. It seems like it'd get exhausting.

Why is it that Frank and Brian and Moraldeficiency never get this? Do you even read what Frank and moraldeficiency say to me? And have you read what Brian has said to people that disagree with him? Why is it that I get targeted as the one guy on the whole internet who occasionally has something to say about something. I happen to have gotten into some exchanges over the past few days, because Final Crisis ended and there are lot of opinions about it, and mine is a very strong one.

And as for this one, it was hardly a rant. It was me saying I don't like racism in comics fans. Oh ****, how terrible of me.

 

[Aristotle]

cue his rant about ranting on the internet.....leave him be it's all he has

OK Corp, explain to me how this isn't a personal attack, but for me to say "**** you Ken, you don't know me and you're carrying a grudge over a dispute about something I can't remember, and which I can only vaguely remember even having with you" would be a personal attack.

 

[Aristotle]

You just captured my thoughts and put them on this post.

Wow, GOOD ONE! Gang up on the guy that's getting a talking-to from a moderator! What internet trope that's been around for a decade and a half will you bring out next? You gonna call me a Nazi, maybe?

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Why is it that Frank and Brian and Moraldeficiency never get this? Do you even read what Frank and moraldeficiency say to me? And have you read what Brian has said to people that disagree with him? Why is it that I get targeted as the one guy on the whole internet who occasionally has something to say about something. I happen to have gotten into some exchanges over the past few days, because Final Crisis ended and there are lot of opinions about it, and mine is a very strong one.

And as for this one, it was hardly a rant. It was me saying I don't like racism in comics fans. Oh ****, how terrible of me.

Dude, calm down. I've made fun of BW and Dread and others for ranting on certain subjects as well. You just happen to be the one doing most of the ranting lately. Frankly, I think it's winding you up a bit too much if you couldn't even tell that I meant that in jest, not as some kind of personal attack on you.

OK Corp, explain to me how this isn't a personal attack, but for me to say "**** you Ken, you don't know me and you're carrying a grudge over a dispute about something I can't remember, and which I can only vaguely remember even having with you" would be a personal attack.

Because he didn't curse and you're guilty of doing exactly the same thing all over. You don't know anyone on here either, yet you constantly blow their comments way out of proportion and assume it means all kinds of nasty things about them, which you list at length. I appreciate that tempers flare and people get passionate, so I give everyone a bit of leeway. But you're starting to push it more than anyone else on here, to be frank.

 

[Aristotle]

Dude, calm down. I've made fun of BW and Dread and others for ranting on certain subjects as well. You just happen to be the one doing most of the ranting lately. Frankly, I think it's winding you up a bit too much if you couldn't even tell that I meant that in jest, not as some kind of personal attack on you.

There wasn't really an indication that you were joking, and Teardrop and KenshinATrain just signed right on board with it. So it did kinda seem like three people telling me to go **** myself. If you didn't mean that, then I'm sorry for misinterpreting it.

Because he didn't curse and you're guilty of doing exactly the same thing all over. You don't know anyone on here either, yet you constantly blow their comments way out of proportion and assume it means all kinds of nasty things about them, which you list at length.

As you may have noticed, I've been going back through the histories of a couple of these arguments, and in each case, I didn't get riled until the other person started making personal attacks against me (and in the case with moraldeficiency, I still have said nothing to that guy on a par with what he's said to me.) That doesn't justify it, but it does raise the question of why I'm the one that gets blamed. At the very least, it takes two to tango. I could handle myself better with these people when they start making things personal, but why does an argument ever have to turn personal?

On reflection, I was probably a little too snarky at Xofenroht, I probably instigated that, but I certainly wasn't looking to start some kind of "**** you you live with your parents and you'll commit suicide at 25" thing, which is basically what he said, which you can compare to me saying things like "you're amoral" and "you seem to think you're more badass and hard than anyone else, and I don't think you really are."

I'm sure some people consider me making it personal by saying that a lot of stupid people don't like Final Crisis. But I haven't said that everyone who doesn't like Final Crisis is stupid. And when I do think someone is displaying attitudes that are a little bit culturally ignorant, as with Phaedrus not getting the symbolism of Darkseid in FC and saying he wants Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet, I try to explain why I think that's ignorant.

I'm sure I started a lot of **** back in the day, and I wonder if that isn't why people come into any conversation with me with a negative preconception, but I don't really think I've been the instigator of much of this stuff lately. I'm always happy to have a conversation with someone. I don't come into things looking to verbally bash people very often.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

There wasn't really an indication that you were joking, and Teardrop and KenshinATrain just signed right on board with it. So it did kinda seem like three people telling me to go **** myself. If you didn't mean that, then I'm sorry for misinterpreting it.

I certainly didn't intend it that way. I suppose, in retrospect, that I could've included some smileys or something.

As you may have noticed, I've been going back through the histories of a couple of these arguments, and in each case, I didn't get riled until the other person started making personal attacks against me (and in the case with moraldeficiency, I still have said nothing to that guy on a par with what he's said to me.) That doesn't justify it, but it does raise the question of why I'm the one that gets blamed. At the very least, it takes two to tango. I could handle myself better with these people when they start making things personal, but why does an argument ever have to turn personal?

On reflection, I was probably a little too snarky at Xofenroht, I probably instigated that, but I certainly wasn't looking to start some kind of "**** you you live with your parents and you'll commit suicide at 25" thing, which is basically what he said, which you can compare to me saying things like "you're amoral" and "you seem to think you're more badass and hard than anyone else, and I don't think you really are."

I'm sure some people consider me making it personal by saying that a lot of stupid people don't like Final Crisis. But I haven't said that everyone who doesn't like Final Crisis is stupid. And when I do think someone is displaying attitudes that are a little bit culturally ignorant, as with Phaedrus not getting the symbolism of Darkseid in FC and saying he wants Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet, I try to explain why I think that's ignorant.

I'm sure I started a lot of **** back in the day, and I wonder if that isn't why people come into any conversation with me with a negative preconception, but I don't really think I've been the instigator of much of this stuff lately. I'm always happy to have a conversation with someone. I don't come into things looking to verbally bash people very often.

If you don't mind my saying, it doesn't seem like you're trying to explain anything when you respond to those posts about FC, or if you are, you're casting yourself in the role of a connoisseur who knows best, forced to educate some small-minded idiot about things they couldn't possibly hope to understand. You have a very deeply held perspective on the series and that's fine, but this is a public forum with lots of different opinions. Others are bound to see it differently and, frankly, you're pretty dismissive of them if they do. It's like a crusade with you that FC must be recognized as X, Y, and Z with absolutely no middle ground, and anyone with a lesser appreciation for it is a pathetic, unwashed pleb for not understanding its all-encompassing majesty.

And I know you're aware of this tendency in yourself on at least some level, given the fact that you've given yourself the title "arrogant elitist." Even if it's a little joke at your own expense, most jokes like that have some kernel of truth in them. Take it from me: I named myself TheCorpulent1, after all.

So yes, it does take two to tango, and while you may think you're not contributing much to the escalation of these arguments into personal mudslinging contests, maybe you're a little bit blind to how roughly your demeanor rubs people sometimes.

Again, these aren't intended as personal attacks, these are my unemotional (as much as I can be, anyway) observations on the many, many heated arguments you've found yourself in lately.