The OFFICIAL FINAL CRISIS THREAD

[Aristotle]

so, whats different from when FC began? how did this affect the DC universe?

I really think you should just read it. The point of this story is to be read, not summarized.

I do have a question, having said that: has Morrison set up Checkmate as the Global Peace Agency from Kirby's OMAC, while keeping it in the mainline DCU, away from Earth-Kirby?

 

[Aristotle]

No, I wouldn't say that it sucked ass. It was a great story that was poorly executed. The build up to the event should have been much different.

What needed to be done in the buildup that hurt the story by its absence in the buildup?

Countdown to Final Crisis should have been written by Johns and Morrison.

I'd have liked that too, no doubts about it.

Superman Beyond, Resist, Requiem, Last Will and Testament, and Submit should have been part of the main story.

First of all, LWT sucked, and had nothing to do with anything. Now, maybe a Morrison version wouldn't have sucked, but I don't think it would have worked with what he wanted to do. And the point of Submit/Resist, as well as Revelations and Rogues' Revenge and Legion of 3 Worlds, was to expand upon certain areas of the main story that some readers just didn't have the strength to decode on their own. Final Crisis was deliberately written in what Brian Cronin (and in turn, I) have called narrative pointillism, a very hyperfast pace, collecting numerous different moments in the life of the story that, up close look like chaos, but when viewed as an issue, and certainly as a complete story, look like a beautiful tapestry.

But let's say that it would have also been OK to vary that pace a bit (I think it would compromise the integrity of the book's experiment, but not everyone will agree.) Let's imagine that Superman Beyond, Submit/Resist (with Morrison writing both), Requiem, a Morrison version of LWT, and Batman Last Rites, were written by Morrison and included in Final Crisis. We're already up to 15 issues. I'd say to bring in a bit of what was done in Revelations and Rogues Revenge, there would be another issue. And let's not forget Lo3W, which probably merits at least another couple issues. We're up to 18 issues. This has now taken a year and a half. Furthermore, the varied pacing now makes the book look ridiculous. Some parts of the book are decompressed and extensively explored (Batman Last Rites, Superman Beyond, etc.), while others are pointillistic (Final Crisis #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7.) The pacing doesn't look varied and deliberate, it looks sloppy and bad. So now we have to abandon that pointillism and decompress the original seven issue into (I think the conventional wisdom on this has been) 12. So add another five issues to our current total of 18, and we're almost at two solid years now.

For once, there really was a story that was too big to contain in one miniseries.

And there should have been more detail on about everything. The return of Barry Allen, the deaths of the Martian Manhunter and Batman, Darkseid, etc.

What more do you need from those events, though? Why is the story damaged in any way because you don't know yet exactly how Barry Allen returned? What do you need to know about J'onn's death other than that he was captured by villains, tranqued, and murdered with a burning spear? What more do you need to know about Darkseid's death other than that he was shot with a radion bullet and the Black Racer came to claim him, causing him to fall through existence into a black hole at the bottom of creation? What more do you need to know about Batman's death other than that the Omega Sanction found him [blackout]and somehow, after presumably escaping the process of living/dying infinite painful lives, found himself deposited directly at the beginning of human history in the DCU? (We know it's the DCU because Anthro isn't a Kirby creation. It's a mainline DCU thing, always was. Kamandi went to Earth-0, Anthro stayed. That's my assumption.)[/blackout]

 

[redbonius]

Been reading DC since 82'. I gotta say that this "crisis" sucked balls in the worst way.




That is all.

 

[El Bastardo]

Your apostrophe is on the wrong side of the numbered year.

That is all.

 

[Aristotle]

Been reading DC since 82'. I gotta say that this "crisis" sucked balls in the worst way.




That is all.

Anyone else think it's weird that someone would be moved to register at the Hype for the first time just to say something as devoid of critical thinking (or thinking of any kind) as that? Something as empty of purpose or reasoning as that? Something as bland, boring, predictable, and mediocre as that?

 

[Motown Marvel]

I really think you should just read it. The point of this story is to be read, not summarized.

i HAVE read it.

I do have a question, having said that: has Morrison set up Checkmate as the Global Peace Agency from Kirby's OMAC, while keeping it in the mainline DCU, away from Earth-Kirby?

you really should just read it.

 

[Xofenroht]

i HAVE read it.



you really should just read it.

Gotta love that Detroit 'swagg.

 

[Aristotle]

i HAVE read it.

Read it again.

you really should just read it.

Oh, is this some more of that classic I'm-rubber-you're-glue-internet-fanboy witticism? Oh, lovely! It's a point I'm interested in hearing others' interpretations on, as I'm currently stumped. You just asked for a summary of events.

 

[Alex Logan]

Well, I'll say this... Final Crisis might be a masterpiece, but it's also the biggest mind **** of all time!

 

[Blader5489]

I really think you should just read it. The point of this story is to be read, not summarized.

I do have a question, having said that: has Morrison set up Checkmate as the Global Peace Agency from Kirby's OMAC, while keeping it in the mainline DCU, away from Earth-Kirby?

It seemed like he was setting up Checkmate as multiverse police.

 

[stillanerd]

No, he said he did it as a narrative tool. As a specific artistic choice. Again, this is like saying Mondrian just painted rectangles to **** with people. I feel like you're treating Final Crisis differently than you would treat other art, because it's a superhero comic. Even as you decry its adherence to standard tropes, you seem to expect it to stick to only those tropes, or fail. It's a boring story because it sticks to same-old tropes, but you won't allow it to be about more than those tropes. The point is the craft of the narrative.

But that's just it. It's a narrative tool that is deliberately designed to invoke and/or symbolize confusion. He himself states the following:

We even break down the conventional storytelling modes at the end until there’s nothing familiar left in an effort to convey what the end of a universe might feel like.

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/010928-Grant-Final-Crisis.html#comments

And with regards to my standards for certain comic book tropes, I don't mind if a story can be more than what it appears. I don't mind if an invasion story or apocalyptic tale can be told in a unique way that offers some insight into the human condition or analogy to our own world. I don't mind if those stories use unconventional narrative techniques to tell those kind of stories. But I do expect those unconventional narrative techniques, at the very least, to not be done just for the sake of doing them. Or to try and make a story seem more important than it really is. Or to just plain show off. If you're going to risk confusing your readers rather than tell a story with a conventional structure, then you better have a damn good reason for doing so other than trying to be arty.

Not what I said. You don't need all the rest of it. It works on its own. However: it's important to recognize that Morrison has been building a large-scale, long-form, overarching narrative as a throughline of all his DCU work. He obviously didn't have this particular point in mind when he began on Arkham Asylum, Animal Man, and Kid Eternity, but it has all been building in a certain direction. From those early DCU stories he did, through to the conclusion of Final Crisis, is one large meta-story. And no, it's not just about events in the DCU. It is, first and foremost, its own story, that happens to feature characters that live in the DCU.

But you do admit it helps to read those earlier works in order to get a better grasp of what he's doing, correct? And, with regards to Final Crisis, Morrison himself says that you have to read the following in this particular order in order to understand what his intentions are and to get the full story:

FINAL CRISIS # 1- 3
SUPERMAN BEYOND # 1- 2
SUBMIT
FINAL CRISIS # 4 – 5
BATMAN #682 – 683
FINAL CRISIS # 6 – 7

And it's precisely THIS kind of "event storytelling is why some comic book readers are frustrated because they think they can just read the main series but in fact have to read other parts of it in order to see what happened. So my question is, if this is what Morrison's intention was all along, why not just publish all of these titles as just plain old "Final Crisis" and make it a 12 part mini series (you know, kind of like the original Crisis on Infinite Earths?). That way, at least the actual mini series that called "Final Crisis" won't seem like it has narrative gaps in the story.

1) Did you ask this about Animal Man? 2) Yes, it was to be the last "chapter" in the Crisis stories, but according to Didio, not Morrison. And no, it as not meant to resolve confusion that other Crisis stories created. It was meant to be its own story. 3) What differentiates the story is the metatextual points being made. It takes a classic story idea, using classic, well-worn characters, and rearranges them to explore various philosophical ideas.

While Animal Man may have made references toward the multiverse and broke the fourth wall, it was still its own isolated series. Also, doesn't the very title "Final Crisis" suggest that it would be the "FINAL Crisis on Infinite Earths" among other things? And yes, you can say that Zero Hour and Infinite Crisis were separate stories as well, but they too, had roots in COIE. And finally, philosophical ideas about the end of the world, mass communication, the nature of gods, life and death, the divide between good and evil or whatever mean nothing if the story being told is nothing more than a series of "cool moments."

I didn't say that there weren't short-term effects. And to be sure, Final Crisis does alter the status quo of the DCU. But the point of Final Crisis is not to create Earth-Kirby. The point is not that Batman is displaced in the space-time continuum. The point is not that Hawkman and Hawkgirl are dead (which I'm still not sure I believe.) The point is a broader narrative construct.

Which is what? The narrative construct? A new way of telling comics? Are you suggesting the point of Final Crisis was "Hey, lets get beyond these conventional storytelling techniques that have been around for years and were first introduced by (ironically) Aristotle in the Poetics and tell comics as though they were a series of loosely connected images just like you find in an MTV music video"?

And I think you're not allowing yourself to see past your initial brush-off (which was undoubtedly preconceived, before reading more than a couple issues of Final Crisis), because it's in the DCU, in a shared universe, so it can't be artistic, it can only pretend to be.

Oh, I'm not criticize this comic because it's a superhero comic book attempting to be artistic. I'm criticizing this comic because in trying to be artistic, it ends up be unnecessarily confussing all in the name of being artistic.

 

[Blader5489]

Also, doesn't the very title "Final Crisis" suggest that it would be the "FINAL Crisis on Infinite Earths" among other things? And yes, you can say that Zero Hour and Infinite Crisis were separate stories as well, but they too, had roots in COIE.

This one does too. As I understand it (though I could be wrong), Mandrakk is the Monitor from the first crisis; he is essentially the manifestation of not just the first crisis, but the idea of a crisis.

 

[Darthphere]

Anyone else think it's weird that someone would be moved to register at the Hype for the first time just to say something as devoid of critical thinking (or thinking of any kind) as that? Something as empty of purpose or reasoning as that? Something as bland, boring, predictable, and mediocre as that?

I'm calling a banned poster reborn.

 

[I Am The Knight]

I think I need to read this thing again.

 

[Motown Marvel]

i think i need to read it all again, as a whole. along with some of the side books, which i read none of. which of the tie in books are ACTUALLY relevant to FC?

 

[Assassin]

[blackout]Batman, Martian Manhunter, Hawkman, and Hawkgirl are all dead. Barry Allen is back. Darkseid is gone; not just dead, but pretty much wiped out of existence. The Monitors are all gone, possibly reborn as humans. All of the Kirby characters--like Shilo Norman and the Super Young Team--were transported to Kamandi's world, Earth-51.

Bruce Wayne is possibly alive, but I don't know where or when he is.[/blackout]

But really who gives a **** where they were transported when Morrisson created them anyways?

 

[Assassin]

Ok, So I read everything leading up to this except Superman Beyond because i cant read the 3D, i'll get sick.

I liked everything. After #6 i was pumped for this issue, i knew it was coming out 2 weeks from #6, i left work early and drove in the snow storm to get this. I read it twice. WTF? The only thing I understood was the last page, The new gods and the monitors.

But the whole Wonderwoman, how was she free? So they freeze all of the people every night now? Why? wait so how did they fix the whole not having to freeze people anymore? Wait what? Why did they put **** in a rocket? How did it end up on the last page?

 

[Blader5489]

But really who gives a **** where they were transported when Morrisson created them anyways?

They're all reincarnations of Fourth World characters now living in Kamandi's universe.

I think the point was to put all of Kirby's creations on their own world.

 

[Xofenroht]

Is Mister Miracle over there too?

 

[GyLocke]

Yes, you should. Ideally, all art should be this cerebral, difficult, and multilayered. You've been pampered by a stupid, easy, lame entertainment industry into thinking that fiction should be simplistic and bland. That's not art. That's just your mind jerking off.

That's a very stupid and snotty thing to say. Art should be muli-layered, yes. If you can write a comic book that can be read on many levels - saying things about the human condition, the medium, the world we live in, ideas, whatever - then you are Alan Moore, you are Neil Gaiman, you are pre-crazy Morrisson. But the point is, it must be readable as a comic book first.

You can throw as many great deep ideas into a poem or a piece of music as you want, if the words and tunes don't flow together, if the reader has to obsessively force himself to read through the poem - listen the music you are a ****** artist.

Reading Final Crisis is like trying to find your home when you are really drunk-stoned and you've just moved to a new place. You can't find a single place to stand on.

The panels don't have anything to do with each other or the narration, you had to read the tie ins to understand half of what the hell is going on. Sure, if you lay it out panel by panel, examine it closely you may grasp some ide about the story, but goddamn it, if it were a great piece of art, you wouldn't have to do all this to enjoy it.

If you can read Dostoyevsky's work as "just books" you should read Morrisson's Final Crisis as "just a comic book" without having to sacrifice hours of your life researching what's happening on each panel, what obscure character is this or that, and what happened in other titles.

He could do this with his New X-men run. He could do this with ASS.
Comic books on the surface, deconstructions of the genre and the past of the series on another level.

Here he failed. Miserably. Maybe it's the art. Maybe he needs Quetly to make sense of the crazy written on paper.

But defending FC by saying "you just can't appreciate art like I do" is very infuriating.

 

[Ultimate_Superman]

No, I wouldn't say that it sucked ass. It was a great story that was poorly executed. The build up to the event should have been much different. The delays were horrible thanks to J.G. Jones. And 7 issues just weren't enough for Morrison to tell the story he wanted to tell properly.

Countdown to Final Crisis should have been written by Johns and Morrison. The art should have been done by Manhke for all the issues. Superman Beyond, Resist, Requiem, Last Will and Testament, and Submit should have been part of the main story. And there should have been more detail on about everything. The return of Barry Allen, the deaths of the Martian Manhunter and Batman, Darkseid, etc.

I agree with everything you have said here. This is exactly how this book should have been done.

 

[BrianWilly]

I...think...I really liked this. I wasn't really impressed with parts of it, and yeah that final confrontation ended up being a bit oddly staged and not really how I felt it should be. Didn't really like how Mandrakk finally went out, staked by the Lanterns. And no Hal, it's "Stake this vampire." Not "Spike this vampire." Spike the vampire is a whoooole other thing, not that I expect Hal would know things about that.

And I'm not crazy about all the unresolvedness of some of these ideas. So whatup with Libra? Where did Metron's chair come from out of nowhere? Aquaman...buh? Hawkman and Hawkgirl...buh?? So what was the Life Equation? At first I really agreed with what some people (here? can't remember) said about it being the Speed Force which would have been so awesome, but that ended up not being it and we never really got what it is, certainly not in the way that we clearly get what Anti-Life is. Is it just the multiverse, or its musical vibrations?

But y'know what? I think I'm one of those people who just gets Morrison. I get what he's doing, I get his stuff. Or...maybe I just think I do and that I don't really at all. In any case, I think that I really got Final Crisis.

I loved loved loved the Watchtower, the JSA Brownstone, the Fortress of Solitude, Checkmate Castle, and Titans Tower melded together to form the last stronghold of humanity. I want to marry that idea and have its babies that will grow up to be big strong Ideas.

Oh and if you don't get it, Nix Uotan the multiversal Monitor is us. Well...maybe. Some people elsewhere seem to have interpreted him as positive and unrestrained imagination/good story/good ending in opposition to Mandrakk's role as the grim and gritty/bad story/bad ending. But from Superman Beyond, I sort of gathered that as more of Superman's role? Who knows.

Oh, and check out Mandrakk's final line, and also the final page of this book.

Oh, and check out the last page of the book, and also compare it to CG Jones' cover for issue #1.

Oh, and Batman was probably cured by his being shot on a rocket through the bleed.

Oh, and Batman just GAVE TOOLS TO MAN.

AAAAH SO MUCH TO NOTICE. I very must obtain Morrison's script of this.

And if you haven't read Morrison's exit interview yet, I strongly suggest that you do so. It's great insight into what it all really means, what it shows of the DCU. And it confirms a lot of my theories about the story, like the Bleed being the life of stories, and gives interesting new info, like the MONITOR Void being the blank page. Holy crap.

I was really, really surprised by his statements on Wonder Woman, though. It's really not anything that thousands of other writers and readers haven't said -- most people just don't "get" her, it's not a secret -- but he was just so candid about it, and about the negative instincts he has about her. I am interested in where his final "resolution" on his negative feelings took him. Very interested in reading about that someday.

I will say that I'm more ambivalent about Revelations. I repeat my critique from the third or fourth issue that this whole thing would read so much better if we didn't have those damned text boxes on every single page bringing the pace to a standstill. They add almost nothing to the story. I liked the end, it was a nice, fitting resolution for a comic like this in an event like this. Although...the big epiphanizing revelation that Cris finally understands about God through the course of this story is that...we can't ever understand him, 'cause we're just too small and insignificant? Sometimes he'll **** us and other times he'll do really nice things? And that is the conclusion he arrived at, with his new profound faith? Okay then Rucka.

 

[redbonius]

Anyone else think it's weird that someone would be moved to register at the Hype for the first time just to say something as devoid of critical thinking (or thinking of any kind) as that? Something as empty of purpose or reasoning as that? Something as bland, boring, predictable, and mediocre as that?

Rather than defend this published garbage as "art"? That alone tells any astute man all he needs to know about you. Go watch anime or play with your pokemon son. Try talking to a girl, they don't really have cooties. Anything but hurling anonymous insults. arrogant = insecure

 

[Blader5489]

Where did Metron's chair come from out of nowhere?

Apparently they brought it on board the Watchtower. You can see Superman sitting in it when he and Supergirl are looking at the blueprints for the Miracle Machine.

 

[Union Jack]

well i've finished reading final crisis...all i can say is...what?

what the heck happened to me it didnt make sense...at all.

I love my DC but for now marvel rules the roost..folk may diss the stories but at least i can understand them!!