The Official Flash thread

[Tron Bonne]

Yeah, reinvention is a pretty loose term in that case. It does break down more to the characters and who they were. I think that Barry was the first to use Flash Facts, so there's that

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

Well, I do think that these characters would have existed in some form, but with Alan and Jay, they were the originals. The names Flash and Green Lantern originated with them.

I mean they were out of the game by the time Hal and Barry were made, and the latter was a reinvention of those roles, but they still have a lot of roots in them. Plus, they were reinventions and you can't reinvent without something being invented and broken down first.

I agree with your latter point. I don't believe that there's a 'one true' when it comes to characters like Flash and Green Lantern. There is no 'iconic' character for those costumes. At least not in the broad sense, and that's really the only sense that counts.

They could've reinvented under the old guys, but it's nice to actually have fallen heroes who drive home the idea of falling in the line of service, instead of just talking about it.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, reinvention is a pretty loose term in that case. It does break down more to the characters and who they were. I think that Barry was the first to use Flash Facts, so there's that

Well, that's a pretty sweet thing to have to your name. Science FTW.

 

[The Batman]

Yet both franchises probably wouldn't exist, at least not entirely as we know them, without Jay and Alan. So, how is that point valid for one generation of heroes, but not another?

Jay and Alan established the character of The Green Lantern and The Flash. Hal and Barry's modernizations of those concepts happened to be the ones that caught on and became the more famous versions. You can argue "What if's" all you'd like, but the truth is, Hal and Barry caught on in ways Alan and Jay did not. Then, Hal and Barry's newfound popularity led to the return of Jay and Alan. Years after that, Kyle and Wally, instead of being reinventions are direct continuations of hal and barry. This is why, whether you and I agree or not, Hal and Barry are considered "THE" GL and Flash.

 

[MaskedManJRK]

Jay and Alan established the character of The Green Lantern and The Flash. Hal and Barry's modernizations of those concepts happened to be the ones that caught on and became the more famous versions. You can argue "What if's" all you'd like, but the truth is, Hal and Barry caught on in ways Alan and Jay did not. Then, Hal and Barry's newfound popularity led to the return of Jay and Alan. Years after that, Kyle and Wally, instead of being reinventions are direct continuations of hal and barry. This is why, whether you and I agree or not, Hal and Barry are considered "THE" GL and Flash.

I think a lot of it is generational too, or depends on who was wearing the suit when you were first introduced to the character. I know that nowadays when I think of Flash and Green Lantern, I think of Wally West and Kyle Rayner, if not because of being more fleshed-out characters (which I think can be said because one can argue that the silver age stuff was more plot driven then the "modern" age), but because those are the people who I saw when I first seriously looked into them.

 

[The Batman]

I think a lot of it is generational too, or depends on who was wearing the suit when you were first introduced to the character. I know that nowadays when I think of Flash and Green Lantern, I think of Wally West and Kyle Rayner, if not because of being more fleshed-out characters (which I think can be said because one can argue that the silver age stuff was more plot driven then the "modern" age), but because those are the people who I saw when I first seriously looked into them.

The thing is, Wally and Kyle both lived in the shadow of Barry and Hal, which is probably why it was easier to bring back the silver age versions. Also, like you mentioned, the generational aspect comes in. Barry and Hal had 30 years worth of stories and several cartoons during the 50's-80's, which included the baby boomer generation. Kyle and Wally only had 15-23 years, and only a few cartoon appearances.

 

[Tron Bonne]

Jay and Alan established the character of The Green Lantern and The Flash. Hal and Barry's modernizations of those concepts happened to be the ones that caught on and became the more famous versions. You can argue "What if's" all you'd like, but the truth is, Hal and Barry caught on in ways Alan and Jay did not. Then, Hal and Barry's newfound popularity led to the return of Jay and Alan. Years after that, Kyle and Wally, instead of being reinventions are direct continuations of hal and barry. This is why, whether you and I agree or not, Hal and Barry are considered "THE" GL and Flash.

But that's not the point. You were arguing that the point that Hal and Barry is the main reason for the franchises today is what makes them as such, yet those franchises wouldn't have existed, at least not in their current form without the originals. Like I said, you cannot reinvent something without something being invented first. So, how is it that point only works for one generation of heroes, and not another?

And no, like I said, I don't believe there really is a definitive GL and Flash in the broad sense. None of the characters of Barry Allen, Wally West, Hal Jordan, Kyle Rayner, John Stewart, Jay Garrick or Alan Scott can be called 'iconic'. Just go out to the streets and start asking non-comic readers who these characters are, and most of them will not know what the **** you're talking about. I guarantee it. Clark Kent, Bruce Wayne, Peter Parker, Bruce Banner are iconic characters. You go out and start talking to people about them and nearly all of them will almost instantly recognize what you're referencing. That's what iconic really is.

Iconic to a specific reader, writer or in general to comic book fandom? ...Maybe. I honestly think that's pretty debatable in its own right, but in the end, those people are just a fraction of most people. Calling them iconic in that sense is like saying that Wonderfalls' talking bear is iconic to the people who watched it. Sure, maybe there's truth to that, but it doesn't mean jack **** in the broad sense of the word

 

[BrianWilly]

Iconic in the sense of the being the iconic incarnation of the DC universe. Barry Allen may be a reinvention -- and not a particularly inventive reinvention at that -- but he was the first Flash to wear that recognizable red onepiece, he was the first Flash on the JLA, with his own TV show, he was the one of the most successful reinventions of all time and -- along with Hal Jordan -- jumpstarted the entire silver age of comics, the era from which almost all lasting comic books mythoses have come, DC or Marvel. Jay and Alan may have been the first incarnations, period, but the DC universe was barely a universe back then, much less a DC universe. Thus, the silver age of comic books is iconic in a way that others haven't been, or can't be. Those stories meant something different; far more people flat-out read comics back then than they do now.

Better? Subjective. Iconic? Less subjective. You all know I love the modern age far more than whatever the hell came before, but I would never call it iconic.

And on that note, how many times has Wally been made "more important" than Barry over the past twenty years? How many times has he been shown to run faster, to kick more ass, to be the Speed God that Barry wasn't, to be much funnier and wiser and cleverer, and in general a much better character?

And now Barry's back, has a story of his own, and receives...let me get this straight...he receives one special trait of his own so far, beyond being a *****e. And this is a big deal why for ****'s sake? This is the thing that's totally shafting Wally how in the world? Christ, wake me up when everyone in Wally's life gets killed, leading him to becoming a fear demon's little moping b**** and then to star in the worst weekly series ever written for a whole year.

 

[The Batman]

Iconic in the sense of the being the iconic incarnation of the DC universe. Barry Allen may be a reinvention -- and not a particularly inventive reinvention at that -- but he was the first Flash to wear that recognizable red onepiece, he was the first Flash on the JLA, with his own TV show, he was the one of the most successful reinventions of all time and -- along with Hal Jordan -- jumpstarted the entire silver age of comics, the era from which almost all lasting comic books mythoses have come, DC or Marvel. Jay and Alan may have been the first incarnations, period, but the DC universe was barely a universe back then, much less a DC universe. Thus, the silver age of comic books is iconic in a way that others haven't been, or can't be. Those stories meant something different; far more people flat-out read comics back then than they do now.

Better? Subjective. Iconic? Less subjective. You all know I love the modern age far more than whatever the hell came before, but I would never call it iconic.

And on that note, how many times has Wally been made "more important" than Barry over the past twenty years? How many times has he been shown to run faster, to kick more ass, to be the Speed God that Barry wasn't, to be much funnier and wiser and cleverer, and in general a much better character?

And now Barry's back, has a story of his own, and receives...let me get this straight...he receives one special trait of his own so far, beyond being a *****e. And this is a big deal why for ****'s sake? This is the thing that's totally shafting Wally how in the world? Christ, wake me up when everyone in Wally's life gets killed, leading him to becoming a fear demon's little moping b**** and then to star in the worst weekly series ever written for a whole year.

See? Exactly the point I was trying to make. It's not a difficult concept to understand...when people arent being stubborn due to the fact that one guy is held in higher standing compared to their personal favorite.

When it comes to GL and Flash, alot of people are clouded by personal bias. I dont care much for Barry, but even i can recognize that he is THE Flash, while Hal is THE GL

 

[Tron Bonne]

Iconic in the sense of the being the iconic incarnation of the DC universe. Barry Allen may be a reinvention -- and not a particularly inventive reinvention at that -- but he was the first Flash to wear that recognizable red onepiece, he was the first Flash on the JLA, with his own TV show, he was the one of the most successful reinventions of all time and -- along with Hal Jordan -- jumpstarted the entire silver age of comics, the era from which almost all lasting comic books mythoses have come, DC or Marvel. Jay and Alan may have been the first incarnations, period, but the DC universe was barely a universe back then, much less a DC universe. Thus, the silver age of comic books is iconic in a way that others haven't been, or can't be. Those stories meant something different; far more people flat-out read comics back then than they do now.

Better? Subjective. Iconic? Less subjective. You all know I love the modern age far more than whatever the hell came before, but I would never call it iconic.

I think I covered this with iconic in the sense of comic book fandom. Except the costumes, I can agree on that one. Hal and Barry's suits are more iconic then Jays and Alans. I am mostly speaking in the broad sense beyond the small niche market comic books have become, and of the characters themselves. Who they are, who their love interests are, etc.

The superheroes Green Lantern and The Flash are definitely iconic to the public. As I said though, go out and poll 5,000 non-comic readers and I'll be pretty surprised if an eighteenth of them know who Barry Allen, Wally West, Hal Jordan (etc.) are, who their love interests are, where they residue, how they got their powers, etc. You go out start talking to non-comic readers about Clark Kent, they'll probably know he's Superman, they'll know Lois Lane, probably bits and pieces of his origin, etc. I realize we are talking about stripping down to some bare basics, but I think my point is still coming across

That's what I think iconic should mean. If you just want to limit the meaning to fandom, okay sure, I'll just submit to that. Within the comic market and industry Barry Allen and Hal Jordan would be more iconic.

See? Exactly the point I was trying to make. It's not a difficult concept to understand...when people arent being stubborn due to the fact that one guy is held in higher standing compared to their personal favorite.

When it comes to GL and Flash, alot of people are clouded by personal bias. I dont care much for Barry, but even i can recognize that he is THE Flash, while Hal is THE GL

Let's not make this something it's not. I've yet to bring personal favorites of any character into what has been said between you and me about this.

 

[SpideyInATree]

The superheroes Green Lantern and The Flash are definitely iconic to the public. As I said though, go out and poll 5,000 non-comic readers and I'll be pretty surprised if an eighteenth of them know who Barry Allen, Wally West, Hal Jordan (etc.) are, who their love interests are, where they residue, how they got their powers, etc. You go out start talking to non-comic readers about Clark Kent, they'll probably know he's Superman, they'll know Lois Lane, probably bits and pieces of his origin, etc. I realize we are talking about stripping down to some bare basics, but I think my point is still coming across

Depends on the age range of people that you are polling as well. You'd be surprised as to what non-comic readers know about certain characters. All my non-comic reading friends still think that the Green Lantern is Kyle Rayner and that the "main" Flash is Wally West.

You say, "Hey, Barry Allen is Flash now" and they'll say, "Barry who?".

 

[Tron Bonne]

Depends on the age range of people that you are polling as well. You'd be surprised as to what non-comic readers know about certain characters. All my non-comic reading friends still think that the Green Lantern is Kyle Rayner and that the "main" Flash is Wally West.

You say, "Hey, Barry Allen is Flash now" and they'll say, "Barry who?".

Yeah, I know people like that as well. Had a friend who thought John Stewart was the original GL because of JLU (Of course that guy's never picked up a comic book in his life) Maybe I am underestimating the general non-comic reading public in just knowing these characters as well.

However, as far as comics go, readers and people who follow it I guess there's not much argument to be made that those are considered the most iconic. I know people probably don't agree with me on the broadness of the meaning, but that's cool, we all flow our own ways.

And on that note, how many times has Wally been made "more important" than Barry over the past twenty years? How many times has he been shown to run faster, to kick more ass, to be the Speed God that Barry wasn't, to be much funnier and wiser and cleverer, and in general a much better character?

And now Barry's back, has a story of his own, and receives...let me get this straight...he receives one special trait of his own so far, beyond being a *****e. And this is a big deal why for ****'s sake? This is the thing that's totally shafting Wally how in the world? Christ, wake me up when everyone in Wally's life gets killed, leading him to becoming a fear demon's little moping b**** and then to star in the worst weekly series ever written for a whole year.

I know you weren't addressing me here, and you were just talking in general, but I don't think people didn't like the whole Speed Force thing just because it was Barry. I think they didn't like it because...it was kinda dumb.

If they had revealed that Wally created the Speed Force the first time he broke into it...it'd be kind of dumb. If they revealed Jay had somehow done it when he got old or whatever...it'd be kind of dumb. If they had revealed that the death of Micheal Jackson caused a riff so great that it created the Speed Force...it'd be slightly less dumb.

Why is it dumb? Of course, that's opinion and I'm sure it's various things, but I don't think it's just a Barry thing. Dumb knows no legacy, because it's dumb

Like I said before though, I'm sure Johns will do something good with this in the future of his run and it'll all tie together and most everyone will never criticize it again.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I agree with that. As I said before, the Speed Force in no way needed an origin. It's an aspect of the Source, which is perfectly fine as far as origins of abstract phenomena in a fictional universe go.

 

[Evil Twin]

I've never really understood how Barry was a reinvention of the basic Flash formula, personally. I get Hal, obviously: he had the Corps and was a much more sci fi take on the "wishing ring" formula. But Jay was a scientist transformed by a freak accident into the fastest man alive and Barry was... a scientist transformed by a freak accident into the fastest man alive. Jay and Barry both ran around a city juggling their relationships, their jobs, and their superheroing. Barry always sort of seemed like Jay by another name when I learned about each of them. But I haven't read many Jay or Barry comics, so maybe I'm missing something.

I'd suggest that there are some subtle but significant differences.

Barry had a few more quirks than Jay. The whole lateness thing, for one. The fact that he was a comic book geek for another. I think as a Police Scientist and the emerging field of forensic science, Barry was a much more defined character. Didn't hurt that he fit right in with the Cold War emphasis on science. Jay had his roots in the pulps and it showed in his adventures, Barry was clearly a product of the clear, shiny science fiction of the 50s.

Iris was also better developed than Joan. As a girlfriend she was much sharper than Lois Lane of the period. In a certain way, the initial burst of the Silver Age took a look at some of the Golden Age cliches and tried to avoid them by presenting women in a stronger light.

There's also, little doubt, that Barry's adventures were much better than Jay's. Time travel, dimensional travel, hidden gorilla cities, high concept sciene, and a great collection of villains. Combine that with a better costume and Infantino knocking the ball out of the park on a regular basis, and that's the period that defines the Flash.

Perhaps not a total reinvention, but certainly the definition, with some modern tweaks over the years, of all that was to follow. Jay is still around, certainly, but storywise Barry is the dominant Flash and that legacy carried over through Wally. Mike Baron might be the only one that made a conscious decision to break away with stuff like Kilg%re, Speed Demon, Velocity 9, etc., but the Rogues and variations on many of Barry's story tropes returned in short order.

 

[Evil Twin]

I agree with that. As I said before, the Speed Force in no way needed an origin. It's an aspect of the Source, which is perfectly fine as far as origins of abstract phenomena in a fictional universe go.

As far as it goes though, a fictional force being created in a pseudo-scientific way really doesn't make a difference either way. It's unnecessary to have an explanation at all and sells Barry as being important in a way that wasn't necessary, but pseudo-science to me is neither smart nor dumb, just kind of there.

Barry wearing a bow tie didn't need an origin either. He wore it because he was invented in the 50s when bow-ties were still part of the style. Like Bruce Wayne wearing an ascot and smoking a pipe.

That's what's kind of frustrating about Flash Rebirth, time spent on stuff that doesn't really contribute to the story.

 

[CLARKY]

Dudez, if the primary complaint with this series is always going to be, "This makes Barry seem more important," we all might as well just give up now. Barry is the main DC Flash. Things are going to happen that make him look important. That's just the way it is.

Lol. That's almost what people keep doing with Hal Jordan anyway. Works fine for the haters as I have noticed.

 

[Varient]

Well,....
(A few days late)
With the return of "Max Mercury" I'm a happy man.
Barry is okay,.. I have fond memories of the stuff he used to do,...
Wally is okay,.. He brought the wonder of "speed" back in little steps to gain a large fan following.

But Max,... Max always caught my attention,.... A speedster who STUDIED his powerset to pull stuff off using finesse,.. instead of brute force like Barry and Wally.

Able to "store" Speed force energy for later use, The ability to mimic or pull off high level speed force tricks through force of will,... The one Garrick looked up to on Speed knowledge.
Max is my favorite speedster,... and they brought him back!!!

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Max's return is definitely a good thing. Now they just need to redesign his costume and reunite him with Bart on a long-term basis, and he'll be golden.

 

[yenaled]

I like how Max's costume is basically just CHEST HAIR!

 

[Darthphere]

So Barry Allen sucks?

 

[Anubis]

Pretty much.

 

[Varient]

Max's return is definitely a good thing. Now they just need to redesign his costume and reunite him with Bart on a long-term basis, and he'll be golden.

I agree,... Some of Barts best stories involved Max.

They go good together.


As for costume? I got nothing,... I'm HAPPY he's back.
(Keep the blue cowl,... chest hair? He's one of the few "non-gritty" heroes to have any.)

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I don't find it particularly necessary to see any hero's chest hair. The color scheme's fine, but it's a really ugly costume for a speedster. Streamline it and make it a bit more aerodynamic. Start by losing that ridiculous collar.

 

[flash13]

I just read Rebirth#4 and I gotta say Wally is freakin' awesome in it!

 

[Young Superman]

unfortunately I have this bad feeking DC'S gonna kill off Wally West before to long to try and certifie Barry Allen as the 'true' Flash.